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Post by M57 on Jul 19, 2017 17:12:38 GMT -6
I can play drums reasonably enough for purposes of setting things up. In fact, I actually have considered getting a kit for the studio for this purpose, but you know what? I'd end up playing to a click anyway, even if I brought in a local drummer, because I'm going to end up sending the work to a remote drummer somewhere else in the world anyway, and he needs a click!
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Post by popmann on Jul 19, 2017 20:17:50 GMT -6
Is his argument that if he were in the room with everyone NOT listening to what was being played, you guys would all be following HIM....?
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 21:49:13 GMT -6
I can play drums reasonably enough for purposes of setting things up. In fact, I actually have considered getting a kit for the studio for this purpose, but you know what? I'd end up playing to a click anyway, even if I brought in a local drummer, because I'm going to end up sending the work to a remote drummer somewhere else in the world anyway, and he needs a click! You can't find a good drummer locally?
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Post by M57 on Jul 20, 2017 4:58:40 GMT -6
I can play drums reasonably enough for purposes of setting things up. In fact, I actually have considered getting a kit for the studio for this purpose, but you know what? I'd end up playing to a click anyway, even if I brought in a local drummer, because I'm going to end up sending the work to a remote drummer somewhere else in the world anyway, and he needs a click! You can't find a good drummer locally? I've had a few in my studio. I don't have that many connections, I'm incredibly picky, AND the genres I tackle are all over the map. Jesse (Jcoutu) was the first person who came to my studio, set up his kit AND mics, and did a fantastic job, both playing and helping me get a happy sound. I was thrilled. The second time he came, the genre was just wrong. Since then and in between, I've brought in a few local drummers, but it's never really worked out. And to be honest, part of the problem is I'm not an experienced engineer on the gazinta side of things. I have the equipment to do it, but it's a lot of work because I'm not set up for it on a daily basis and it feels like a crap shoot every time. One time I had a really good player come in, he gave a great performance, but he brought crap for drums. The toms were out of control - things were rattling - it was embarrassing. Another time, I loved what the player did, but the tracks I captured were just unusable for one or two technical reasons - I blame myself for that. DrBill pointed me toward a drummer who plays remotely from his own studio for less than what it would cost me to hire out time in a studio. The session is real-timeish, I get a couple of revisions if I want, and his tracks are well recorded. He's been the right choice for the songs I've sent to him and I plan to use him again, but his sound isn't right for everything. Right now I'm working on a song that I think is more in Jesse's wheelhouse and I'm hoping to have him back. Getting the thread back on rails: Certainly, working with a real drummer that you trust is preferable, but for a songwriter on a budget like me, it's a lot easier if you can work with loops and programmable drums in the writing stage of things.
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Post by popmann on Jul 20, 2017 9:04:06 GMT -6
But, I want you to back up. I'm not talking about real drummers vs MIDI drums. Neither require tracks be cut to a click. The only thing that "requires" that is if you want the MIDI drums to be track #1 start and you play to THEM. ie, just like your "work with loops....in the writing stage". My Cog in the Machine was cut to a click--solely because it was written to a loop, and subjective preference aside, human timing changed that feel. And, again--no one is trying to convince you that your happy place isn't your happy place. If you like your click you can keep your click. But, don't extrapolate that into that being some requirement for recording music. One man band, 10 girl band, 90 piece orchestra of monkeys playing kazoo.....none of them requires a click. If you want the feel a click you should use one. I do....when I want that feel. But, make no mistake, it's a SPECIFIC feel.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 20, 2017 12:57:32 GMT -6
Almost nobody used clicks for records before the '80s. The only exception were Hollyweird scoring musicians who were use to it because the length of a cue needs to exactly match picture.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 20, 2017 14:44:18 GMT -6
I am enjoying all these different perspectives but we haven't touched on one thing which is the elephant in the discussions either learning to keep better time or diciphering the time of something you have written so you can count along as you play. The song I am working on now certainly starts in 4/4 around 80 bpm and I am playing 1/8ths notes as I can count 1, and, 2 and etc. Then the guitar changes up and I am struggling a bit with the same count and experimenting with increasing the bpm. I know how to do this in logic so it's really figuring out how to count the middle section which is the challenge now
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Post by popmann on Jul 20, 2017 15:01:09 GMT -6
Well, that's a musical pursuit. I've never written anything I couldn't count. Feel free to post it....what does Music Memos do when you get to that section?
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 20, 2017 15:48:18 GMT -6
Some say there are msuicians which can play before and after the klick. But I agree with WIZ overdubbing is not the same as doing it live with a Band. You need a beat master, click or drums.
A great played guide track, which you hpefully know very very well, makes it more organic...
With the years I learned to love the clcik becasue it guides me well...
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Post by jampa on Jul 21, 2017 6:27:11 GMT -6
Well for me when a musician isn't getting a part, we don't want to brute force it
We try again another day Or they go home and practice (weeks maybe) until it's easy for them Or we get someone else/software to do it Or we scrap the part/find another way As a last resort we keep doing takes until we get it or go crazy or both
We try but don't try
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Post by Guitar on Jul 23, 2017 11:21:33 GMT -6
I am enjoying all these different perspectives but we haven't touched on one thing which is the elephant in the discussions either learning to keep better time or diciphering the time of something you have written so you can count along as you play. The song I am working on now certainly starts in 4/4 around 80 bpm and I am playing 1/8ths notes as I can count 1, and, 2 and etc. Then the guitar changes up and I am struggling a bit with the same count and experimenting with increasing the bpm. I know how to do this in logic so it's really figuring out how to count the middle section which is the challenge now Great topic. My big mind-altering experience just happened a couple days ago. I've been struggling with the one man band thing. And yes, the gnarly behemoth in the room is absolutely the timing and feel. My pro-drummer friend said, "Why don't you put a metronome on your smart phone, grab some headphones, and play to a specific tempo for 30 mins a day 3 times a week." I've only got one session in so far, but having structured practice on the drum kit is something I was sorely lacking. I used to just play whatever I want, but that doesn't get the same results. You could do the same thing with your guitar or bass, whatever, but for drums it is absolutely critical to play with good timing. Practicing to a metronome will program this into your muscle memory. I've also been learning Cubase's Audio Warp, Iterative Quantize, audio quantize, groove extraction, and that stuff is really helping put the band aids on. It can also be used creatively to dictate the feel with a producer's authority and vision. These days, I'd say it's part of the job to know this stuff. Many times, I do start with a guitar part, since I've been writing songs on guitar for my whole life. IF you play the guitar tightly to a click, adding the drums afterwards can work out and make sense. A lot of bands I've recorded do start with drums. Either to a click or a scratch guitar track, whatever is appropriate. My programmed music also uses a lot of MIDI finessing, and the two genres do inform each other. It's been a huge learning process and I'm glad for it. The goal is to eventually sound like a Nigel Godrich produced Thom Yorke record or something like that with the two worlds blended seamlessly and 'perfectly' timed.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 23, 2017 13:07:36 GMT -6
This is interesting to me. Probably because I tracked analogue for so long, I just do things certain ways. Later on, I occasionally find out there was a much easier way.
My process is this:
* I play my song into an iPhone. Sometimes I import that, sometimes I don't bother, and just play it from my phone.
* Next, I Tap Tempo along to the recording to see what my BPM is. I open a new track and set tempo. It's still an approximation, but it's in the ballpark of the right tempo.
* I put a shaker onto a track, most times using 8th notes. A shaker kills the mechanical feel of a click for me, it's much more natural.
* Now I either track an acoustic guitar to the shaker, or I find a very basic drum pattern in Superior Drummer, fly that in and loop. Sometimes I go one small step further and manage a couple of fills here and there.
* I now have a beat to track to.
*I add a few more instruments and vocals, updating the drum patterns as the music develops. When all the tracking is done, I tweak the drums further. On occasion, when I can afford it, I'll put a real drum on the track after all the recording is finished.
** just saw monkey's post after posting mine, and he makes a good point. Improving your timing is important if you plan to record. Mine needs a little work too.
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