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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 18, 2017 17:34:01 GMT -6
I write mostly on guitar. When it comes time to record to click I have often written things that strictly are out of measure, here and there or I think I change measures without realizing it.
I like to keep as much of the intuitive vibe as possible when recording but do record to click.
Are there tricks to help us with timing ? I use Logic and know it has some features like beat detective but I haven't uased them much .
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Post by wiz on Jul 18, 2017 18:09:04 GMT -6
I write mostly on guitar. When it comes time to record to click I have often written things that strictly are out of measure, here and there or I think I change measures without realizing it. I like to keep as much of the intuitive vibe as possible when recording but do record to click. Are there tricks to help us with timing ? I use Logic and know it has some features like beat detective but I haven't uased them much . Here is my take.... based on overdubbing one thing at a time, as thats how I do it... just me... those who track with a band or drummer and someone else, move along, nothing to see here... 8) Something has to be timing master.... I have experimented a shit load (doesn't mean you shouldn't) and found the following works best... again, move along if you don't like this stuff... 8) Trying to do the "I don't play to the grid" thing, doesn't cut it when you are overdubbing stuff.... there has to be a timing master. For me, its drums and bass. I can play guitar well enough to a well tracked rhythm section to not have to adjust anything... but I am a guitar player not a drummer and bass player per se... again move along if you are, I am answering cat here...8) So, Grid the drums. .... GASP SPLUTTER .. I tried every trick in the f*king book, to get things to work out, with me playing guitar first... it doesn't work for me. Cut a guide acoustic guitar part using LOGIC MEMOS, import it, Grid it, then cut the drums and bass against the guide, then grid them. Then mute the guide guitar part. You now have a "perfect" rhythm section. Now over dub everything against that. You can then come back if you wish and "move" the bass around a bit, the drums around a bit, rectrack if you want... The point is, you have overdubbed all the extra parts, against a timing master which is instruments not clicking.... Try it and see if it doesn't improve your song, or at least show you what you need to work on. If you can't play a nice swung guitar part against perfect time bass and drums, you got problems that need to be addressed.. cheers Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 18, 2017 18:16:42 GMT -6
What the Aussie said ^^^
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 18, 2017 18:19:10 GMT -6
I am using MM too and do import the files.
Sorry to be slow when you say grid it do you mean just line it up on the grid ? or something else ?
The grid is a function of the chosen time signature ?
I try to record a new master guitar track using the MM parts but to tempo either click or click plus a simple drummer pattern .
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Post by wiz on Jul 18, 2017 18:23:45 GMT -6
I am using MM too and do import the files. Sorry to be slow when you say grid it do you mean just line it up on the grid ? or something else ? The grid is a function of the chosen time signature ? I try to record a new master guitar track using the MM parts but to tempo either click or click plus a simple drummer pattern . Learn about how to flex time stuff... You basically cut your drums and bass, with drums you group them and make them phase coherent. Then you do transient detection on the kick and snare, then you quantise them. Bass you just do the transient detection and quantise. Generally at 1/8ths or 1/16ths Watch some vids on you tube.. cheers Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 18, 2017 18:52:33 GMT -6
Btw - that's a good song title
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 18, 2017 19:07:25 GMT -6
Not just a pretty moniker !
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jul 18, 2017 19:25:39 GMT -6
you could always record your loose performance, and then use BeatMapping to create a click around what you played. it would have all of the ebb and flow of your original performance timing when you went for overdubs too..
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 18, 2017 19:36:46 GMT -6
ya I was wondering about beat mapping: think I'll do a little homework!
Thx guys !
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 18, 2017 19:51:25 GMT -6
I write mostly on guitar. When it comes time to record to click I have often written things that strictly are out of measure, here and there or I think I change measures without realizing it. I like to keep as much of the intuitive vibe as possible when recording but do record to click. Are there tricks to help us with timing ? I use Logic and know it has some features like beat detective but I haven't uased them much . Why would you record demos to click? Why would you want a damned machine to dictate your songwriting?
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 18, 2017 19:53:38 GMT -6
ya I was wondering about beat mapping: think I'll do a little homework! Thx guys ! I utterly loathe "beat mapping". It's right up there with Ottotune on my hate list for unmusicality.
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Post by ragan on Jul 18, 2017 20:34:53 GMT -6
I'm with Wiz re: order of operations. Beat detective/map it if you need, don't if you don't. But you gotta have a strong rhythm section to layer to.
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Post by wiz on Jul 18, 2017 20:35:45 GMT -6
ya I was wondering about beat mapping: think I'll do a little homework! Thx guys ! I utterly loathe "beat mapping". It's right up there with Ottotune on my hate list for unmusicality. thats the wonderful thing about choice.....
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Post by ragan on Jul 18, 2017 20:41:48 GMT -6
I should say you can absolutely do the One Man Band thing with no click, but you've gotta be quite good all around. And it's harder to edit if you want to move parts around since it's not referencing any tempo/grid as far as your DAW is concerned. I've done it every which way for the last 20 years. In my teenage 4-track days I would memorize the song and just play the drums first, with nothing in my cans and then start tracking the guitars and bass to the recorded drums.
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Post by popmann on Jul 18, 2017 21:32:58 GMT -6
Of course you can....I bought the only midi sequencer that would map tempo relative to incoming timecode in 1990. I just switched to LPX after 15 years in Cubendo World because it automaps what I used to do manually in Cubase and Nuendo...and ups the ante that the midi drummer "follows" audio tracks--ie, adapts it's beats to better fit the transient patterns in the audio of guitars and basses and whatever....again--could always be done via custom groove templates, but....this is mostly automatic....and the older I get, the less time I want to spend on shit I don't have to do manually. It only took them 25 fucking years to come around to my way of working.
Now I can simply play my song....tempo map and virtual drummer follows ME....
I see the problem--the assumption that clicks are needed to record. They're not. If you like the feel they bring....then use'em....but, there's not some requirement.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 18, 2017 23:32:17 GMT -6
I write mostly on guitar. When it comes time to record to click I have often written things that strictly are out of measure, here and there or I think I change measures without realizing it. I like to keep as much of the intuitive vibe as possible when recording but do record to click. Are there tricks to help us with timing ? I use Logic and know it has some features like beat detective but I haven't uased them much . Why would you record demos to click? Why would you want a damned machine to dictate your songwriting? I never write to click always just create the song freely but when I record I do use click and that is always the dilemma: the difference between the breath of my open style and the stricture/discipline of click and perfect measure. I often use Logic's drummer so click becomes important. Personally,I would much prefer to work with real musicians in my natural time but don't have that luxury although friend contribute parts which I am grateful for. If you like acoustic instrumentals,check out my YouTube channel kcatthedog grasslands done in natural time.
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Post by M57 on Jul 19, 2017 4:12:11 GMT -6
I pretty much hate the click; it's about as uninspiring as it gets. So here's my workflow as best I can describe it.
The first thing I usually do is go hunting for a simple but appropriate beat with Logic's drummer. Little touches like dialing just the right amount of swing and setting it up for the the occasional light fill can help. Sometimes, a shaker is all I need.
Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on how you want to view it, I don't play perfectly to the beat. I'm not a machine, nor do I want to be. I'll fall behind for a few beats, then catch up and over-take it, etc. Depending on the genre, I tend to play on top of the beat, so my wave form transients are rarely in lock-step with the actual beat. There's ebb and flow built into my slop.
From there, I usually turn on Flex time and clean things up a bit. NOT A LOT. I'll fix only the outliers, bringing them closer to whatever the norm for my slop is. Then I put down some other rhythm section tracks. Now the trick stuff begins..
At the micro level, I look at the performances in Flex time and move them toward each other. On a macro level, and for instance if it looks like I'm falling behind a bit too much, I'll move everything a tad closer to the beat, but I'll still keep it behind. In other words, when I move the transient markers I move them toward absolute time enough such that they don't seem off, but still retain the their feel.
When I've sent my work off to a real drummer for remote tracking, I don't know how he does it, but he delivers solid tracks that ever so slightly follow my lead. Then, if necessary I go back in and kind of do the same thing, mostly editing my performances to line up with his, but on occasion nudging the drums in flex toward mine (with the phase alignment engaged, of course). All said and done, rarely is anything dead nuts on and there's that hint of ebb and flow keeping things real.
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Post by jampa on Jul 19, 2017 6:28:37 GMT -6
I work with small groups. Before recording (weeks maybe) we plan who starts and live/guide track/click etc.
They prepare or not and later (weeks maybe) we start. We do three takes and if we're not really close something's wrong.
So, we stop and change song; or change from live to click etc; or abort as sometimes it's not the right time for that song; or whatever, something changes.
We move on and eventually (never maybe) the song has the right foundation.
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Post by popmann on Jul 19, 2017 8:45:05 GMT -6
Why would you record demos to click? Why would you want a damned machine to dictate your songwriting? I often use Logic's drummer so click becomes important. No--Logic having a map of your tempo is important to use the Drummer (or any midi drum app). That's often achieved by people playing to a click from the start. But, if you read my post....that's not "the only way". (simplified) --play your tune in Music Memos and import that to LPX. But, BEFORE you import it, make sure it's properly detected the downbeat. Import it, and you now have a human tempo played track that Logic has tempo mapped for you and any Drummer regions you create will follow said map. You can enable (or not) the Follow on the given region to make it actually pay attention to your performance beyond tempo.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 19, 2017 9:13:04 GMT -6
The biggest problem I've seen with clicks is that they are almost always at the wrong tempo and the right tempo is almost never an even number of beats. On top of that metronomes rarely agree with each other.
In most cases the vocal should define the tempo so I would sing with a click to find the right tempo and then use that device as my guide. If it's on a computer, you want to use that computer!
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Post by Bender on Jul 19, 2017 13:51:13 GMT -6
I should say you can absolutely do the One Man Band thing with no click, but you've gotta be quite good all around. Yes indeed! I've tried the whole gambit when it comes to this, IME every song is somewhat different; some straight with clicks, some with no click at all, some with tempo mapping. My last venture I was playing with a drummer who wasn't so click proficient but capable what I decided worked best was playing DI guitar while he tracked the drums.... Comping the takes into a single performance. Not beat by beat comping as every performance was unique, but maybe the outro of take 3 per instance. Growing up on strong rhythm guitar chops and being the singer of the songs it's a GREAT WAY to find and keep the right tempo in check; this way actually turned out quite well and lively especially for the organic tempo variances and vibes.... Drum fills anyone?
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 14:56:32 GMT -6
What I usually prefer is to lay down a scratch vocal and scratch rhythm guitar with a (hopefully keeper) drum track. The drummer does need to be good enough. I don't mind the tempo shifting a bit provided it serves the song. One of the things I don't like about clicks is that you don't have that freedom.
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Post by M57 on Jul 19, 2017 15:55:43 GMT -6
What I usually prefer is to lay down a scratch vocal and scratch rhythm guitar with a (hopefully keeper) drum track. The drummer does need to be good enough. I don't mind the tempo slifting a bit provided it serves the song. One of the things I don't like about clicks is that you don't have that freedom. To be sure, clicks aren't real time - they're fake time. A real drummer is always optimal, but the OP is a one man operation. I think I tried music memos and it didn't map very well for me, not to mention that it just wasn't a comfortable work-flow for me. Speaking for myself, having to play 'time' and then have a beat detective extrapolate and create a map of my inadequacies kind of kills the muse. The alternative, playing to the click (assuming the music has steady beat) is at least quicker, downer, and dirtier, and honestly, a good loop can actually provide some inspiration. Like I outlined in an earlier post, when the player wobbles around the beat, which is somewhat natural - an ebb and flow can be achieved. Come to think of it, I'm surprised that a macro-wobble knob isn't available for drummer. You know - Set a range, like 1.5 BPM and maybe a max frequency and randomness factor, like the shift takes at least 3 bars, etc. I don't have any of those aftermarket drum programs; maybe they already do things like that ..and if they don't, there's probably a good reason. I almost never have truly innovative ideas.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 16:51:20 GMT -6
I can't play drums worth a shit but I have a kit set up all the time because it's a lot easier to talk a drummer into coming over for a little while and laying something down if he doesn't have to lug his kit.
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Post by Bender on Jul 19, 2017 17:05:54 GMT -6
I can't play drums worth a shit but I have a kit set up all the time because it's a lot easier to talk a drummer into coming over for a little while and laying something down if he doesn't have to lug his kit. My experience as well, PREACH!
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