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Post by M57 on Jul 18, 2017 9:38:13 GMT -6
OK, so the solution is to actually "separate the artist from the engineer." Rent a pro studio and hire an engineer.. and might as well throw in a few musicians, or even better, just get a producer to do all it for you. That's not what I'm advocating at all. My view is to have a recording enginner come to the studio of the person trying to be songwriter/artist/recording engineer/mix enginner/producer. The RE's sole purpose is to help with mic positioning and record the takes. I hear you, and I'm not disagreeing, but I'm talking about case where it's not a viable option. I suppose I have myself to blame, but I know no engineers in my immediate area, and certainly none that can come over at the drop of a hat. I don't know that I want to pay to find out if I trust them in the first place. And maybe, more importantly I don't even know that I want them in the room when inspiration strikes at 2 in the morning and I'm putting it all out there and experimenting with ideas that sound horrible ..in my underwear. Hah, just kidding - If you knew what I looked like, you would never forgive me for putting that image in your head ;P I think ericn's point about knowing your limitations is spot on. The only way to learn what your limitations are is to try to exceed them, and as he mentioned, this new technology is an enabler in that regard. Unfortunately, I actually want to be Lindsay Buckingham and do it all. I actually enjoy the engineering part of it. No doubt that's one of the things that separates me from professional song-writers. I'm OK with that. I'm only in this to satisfy the muse. So when the muse says, "Dude, you've done everything you can, and your recordings are still crap," I'll either get engineering help, or give up and stop writing. Don't get me wrong swurveman. The project has to be right and all, but I think bringing in an engineer is a great idea, and I know I should consider it myself.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 18, 2017 11:36:33 GMT -6
That's not what I'm advocating at all. My view is to have a recording enginner come to the studio of the person trying to be songwriter/artist/recording engineer/mix enginner/producer. The RE's sole purpose is to help with mic positioning and record the takes. I hear you, and I'm not disagreeing, but I'm talking about case where it's not a viable option. I suppose I have myself to blame, but I know no engineers in my immediate area, and certainly none that can come over at the drop of a hat. I don't know that I want to pay to find out if I trust them in the first place. And maybe, more importantly I don't even know that I want them in the room when inspiration strikes at 2 in the morning and I'm putting it all out there and experimenting with ideas that sound horrible ..in my underwear. Hah, just kidding - If you knew what I looked like, you would never forgive me for putting that image in your head ;P I think ericn's point about knowing your limitations is spot on. The only way to learn what your limitations are is to try to exceed them, and as he mentioned, this new technology is an enabler in that regard. Unfortunately, I actually want to be Lindsay Buckingham and do it all. I actually enjoy the engineering part of it. No doubt that's one of the things that separates me from professional song-writers. I'm OK with that. I'm only in this to satisfy the muse. So when the muse says, "Dude, you've done everything you can, and your recordings are still crap," I'll either get engineering help, or give up and stop writing. Don't get me wrong swurveman. The project has to be right and all, but I think bringing in an engineer is a great idea, and I know I should consider it myself. Huge LB fan but if you do a bit of research you will find Engineer and Producer credits on all but one album!
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 18, 2017 14:37:03 GMT -6
I asked cus I use logic now and once I have the basicarrangemrnt worked then I use the arrangement markers to rearrange the song as part of the creative process. I don't recall this same feature in pro tools ? Yes Pro tools does not have this feature. I would have to do a save as then rename the save as : "Song - Re-Arrange -1a - " then use that as a new " arrangement " session.. it's a pain and have had to do it before when artist decide they want a 12 bar verse instead of 16 that the track out or two tracks has baked in ... Thanks for the feedback 🤘
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 18, 2017 14:39:33 GMT -6
It helps me to book time with a famous German producer. He is giving good advises and it solves the knots in my head. Vocals: I cant give a true advise on this issue becasue I am not the best singer myself. I just sing as long as it sounds like the voice which I imagin in my inner ear. Thanks man! Yeah I have been speaking with a local singing teacher and will see to it that I start soon.. Yes having a n experienced firmed in the biz is amazing, however I can't call up my industry contacts at 3 am and and tell them to check their email cuz I need vocal advice ( yet ) 😂😂😂.. Thanks for the feedback!
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 18, 2017 14:59:03 GMT -6
re-arranging in logic is dead easy like dragging, dropping or copying. Studio one does this too.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 18, 2017 14:59:48 GMT -6
Great thread and obviously a subject that's becoming relevant for more and more musicians. Quick story: I've never recorded in a real recording studio with an engineer and all, but last year I had the opportunity to stop by @jcoutu's "office" where we shot out a bunch of preamps and EQs. I sang the same chorus over and over with Jesse at the helm so I didn't have to think one bit about the tech side. I swear I was getting enough out of 1 or 2 takes almost every time, no doubt in large part because I only had to wear one hat. Thanks for this awesome post! I agree whole heartedly that I come up with lyrics in the fly and i do work In chunks ( verse or hook etc ) and admittedly bounce back and forth and this sometimes can keep things fresh for me. Also, you know how to sing a lot better than me and the Autuo tune throws me off because of the phrasing and how my voice is.. I actually turned the retuned speed down to 5 and much prefer this for recording. And I kid you not it doesn't sound as T pain like and the takes were easier to record... Takes: Yes my voice is a lot stronger now that I quit smoking Newport's Nov.13,2015 so I feel better recording now. I love it. Part of my issue is I don't know how to manipulate my singing voice to get what I want until I just do it and realize ok that's what I want.. For example, I was stretching out this word myself like myyyy selllllll ellll ffffff and until I went down a note or two on the ellll part that's when I was like ok that's what I want.. I didn't know that ahead of time to actually sing it like that. ( why I need a pro to teach me phrasing ) So part of my takes are trail and error and since I don't comp or punch in I delete those takes and restart ( 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️😣😌) instead of like you and Bender says to keep what I want and punch in and build the cocalmohrasing as I go.. Also, was mentioned having everybody in the room... man that vibe can be so real when the homies or band is there and you are feeling yourself and have others to bounce ideas and feedback off of as in regards to takes and quality of performance.. Flying solo opens up small doubt or uncertainty at times. i swear no one around me has the passion for this like me, so I have had to cut off a lot of engineer and acquaintances who said they would help but didn't.. FE: my ex business partner, all he had to do was click the mouse and press space bar ( to activate and start recording in PT ) and this idiot would fall asleep and start fukn snoring during my takes ... literally hear it in my headphones 🤦♂️🤦♂️ Some engineers want too much money, imo and going to the studio Downtown and paying a buddy is not always an option b/c the guys have been engineering for clients all day so they are burnt out lol. Thanks for the awesome post and feedback 😎🤠 Yes you were correct in your second post, if I had a recording budget then I would defintely have a pro engineer, in pro studio and I would not have started this thread. Also, the takes I get are better quality at my Mix suite however I will be trying the other studio again soon. Thanks 🙏
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 18, 2017 15:04:17 GMT -6
That's not what I'm advocating at all. My view is to have a recording enginner come to the studio of the person trying to be songwriter/artist/recording engineer/mix enginner/producer. The RE's sole purpose is to help with mic positioning and record the takes. You don't need the engineer all the time, if vocals are the problem just for vocals! Plus as an engineer I have often in fact probably bitten the hand that feed me by showing an artist what I am doing, many of us who grew up in commercial studios I learned as much from seeing others do as I did from doing myself. Also I do believe that one of the biggest problems of modern music is the lack of true independent feed back in the process, if it's just you and those who have a non commercial relationship are more likely to put their relationship with you above honesty. Having honest professional feedback even for one step of the process is worth its weight in gold! Thanks for all of your feedback Eric! I am listening loud and clear and will have a buddy help me with the vocal recordings. I am also looking into pushing those boundaries as you mention and learning more about myself as an artist. I'm not sure of many artists who do do it all them self, and if they do it's out of necessity ( lack of budget )... if inhad a recording budget this misuse would be on existent 😎🤠 Supoosed to be going by a vocal coach's place tomorrow !
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Post by wiz on Jul 18, 2017 15:06:42 GMT -6
I will give you a couple of hints, that have worked out for me.
1. Realise you have virtually no objectivity.
2. Listen to stuff in front of other people, its staggering how that changes how you hear the mix.
3. I have a saying... "Time is my producer" I used to have it written on the wall. The only way I can get "some" objectivity is to have time away from the song. 2 weeks is great, overnight at least.
4. Three passes at something and move on when tracking. If I aint got it by then, I aint gonna get it today, see Tip 3.
5. Have someone you can send stuff to, who is not going to blow smoke up you.... You need someone who over time gets to know you and your work, and can give you criticism...
6. When receiving criticism from someone, do not interrupt them with "oh thats like that because of....." listen completely to what they say, then ruminate on it.... then after applying Tip 3, see what YOU think.
7. When you have applied TIP 3 to TIP 6... own it.
8. After owning TIP 7 and more TIP 3 has happened, be prepared to change it. 8)
9. You will find, you over play, over sing everything you do, thats ok, thats why we have mute buttons, or mute region ...... pull things out till the song doesn't need any more pulled out, vs throwing more stuff at it.
10. Sometimes songs need more stuff thrown at them, in that case after applying TIP 3, avoid TIP 9.
Whilst I am trying (possibly feebly) to inject some humour into this, all I write above is true, and practiced on a daily basis.
If I am any good at this, its only because of 2 things.
I have been doing it since 1985. yes, I am that old and I was 21 when I started.
I have always approached it from the perspective that I know shit (still do, seriously) and that everyone else is obviously better at this than I am , and therefore I can learn something off of everyone.
If you find something isn't working its going to be because of a couple of things.
Its not in pitch. Its not in time, Its covering something else up, pitch or timing, or frequency masking.
Arrangement is EVERTYHING.
Arrangement of melody, meter, what parts are playing when, what part of the frequency spectrum they sit in, or are overlapping, arrangement of when they appear and disappear in the tune, their volume, arrangement of if that guitar is in the 1st and 3rd verse and not the 2nd.
A song, sung in pitch, with the right meter over a well arranged track, mixes itself. Seems inane to write, but its true in my experience. If I am having problems, its because I am not doing one of those things well.
Hope it helps
cheers
Wiz
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 18, 2017 15:12:41 GMT -6
re-arranging in logic is dead easy like dragging, dropping or copying. Studio one does this too. It's a whole separate arrangement screen ? So you have two edit windows? I know about Studio One 3 arranger how it will save the original arrangement and you can drag and drop in the arranger track to change it.I own it and use it but not for recording ( will try it soon ) pro tools you can drag and drop as well but there is only one edit window ever and to keep organized and not mess up the original arrangement the artist may want to go back too! Thanks for the help but arrangement isn't my issue with the music at all.. it's the vocal recordings 🙏
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 18, 2017 15:24:28 GMT -6
wizThis is gold and you defintely know more than Shit my good mate.. Inhabe screen shot your tip list and stored it, thank you 🙏🤘 yes I need to develop that bond with someone who knows my music, problem is I don't have anyone I can do that with. The industry contacts I do have, I feel don't have time for that. Guess I don't know unless I ask huh? Just don't want to over step my relationships... Who is an ideal person to do this with? Someone in the same genre different genre? An engineer? A mixer? A ME? I have an idea of one artist who might help me but he is too busy and doesn't know my music at all.. I know a paying client is not the right person for this either so ya idk... Would love criticism and want to improve my music. Have a lifelong friend coming over tomorrow to record me 😎🤠 He was so happy when I asked.. Makes me feel good and this person knows my music well By not well enough to be that person who can critique the technical aspects of arrangement, mix, balance, separation, pitch, etc...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 18, 2017 15:56:37 GMT -6
Feel free to shoot mixes at me.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 18, 2017 16:01:30 GMT -6
No logic uses one main window that you can add your mixer and channels too: the wave forms and midi are there to like PT's edit window.
At the top running the length of the session you can add arrangement markers and labels. Once the labels are there say Verse 1, you can simply drag and drop it to another position or copy. All regions in that section automatically move or copy.
So you can try out a new arrangement in minutes.
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Post by wiz on Jul 18, 2017 16:10:36 GMT -6
No logic uses one main window that you can add your mixer and channels too: the wave forms and midi are there to like PT's edit window. At the top running the length of the session you can add arrangement markers and labels. Once the labels are there say Verse 1, you can simply drag and drop it to another position or copy. All regions in that section automatically move or copy. So you can try out a new arrangement in minutes. This function is really great. I use it all the time. cheers Wiz
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
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Post by ericn on Jul 18, 2017 16:37:19 GMT -6
You don't need the engineer all the time, if vocals are the problem just for vocals! Plus as an engineer I have often in fact probably bitten the hand that feed me by showing an artist what I am doing, many of us who grew up in commercial studios I learned as much from seeing others do as I did from doing myself. Also I do believe that one of the biggest problems of modern music is the lack of true independent feed back in the process, if it's just you and those who have a non commercial relationship are more likely to put their relationship with you above honesty. Having honest professional feedback even for one step of the process is worth its weight in gold! Thanks for all of your feedback Eric! I am listening loud and clear and will have a buddy help me with the vocal recordings. I am also looking into pushing those boundaries as you mention and learning more about myself as an artist. I'm not sure of many artists who do do it all them self, and if they do it's out of necessity ( lack of budget )... if inhad a recording budget this misuse would be on existent 😎🤠 Supoosed to be going by a vocal coach's place tomorrow ! One big thing , their are far more talented dedicated people just about anywhere than you think there are. You get to know them and be picky about who you say no to by simply putting yourself out there applying your talents to any type you can you build your rep on hard work and the word of others. Then when you get old you can be picky.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 18, 2017 20:33:17 GMT -6
Feel free to shoot mixes at me. The funny thing is it's not necessarily the Mixes, I am cranking out stuff for clients more efficiently than ever and getting great results! I have issues with more or less my recording / takes and delivery of hook / verse recently! I do appreciate you man thanks and will send you some stuff soon... one thing I can say is that sometimes I mix the life or soulmoutta the record so I know you could help me in that regard.. I appreciate you always be down to help me bro 💯🙏🤠 kcatthedog wiz Yes pro tools has markers, however you would have to group everything you wanted to move at once in an edit group, then yes you could use this mix group to move/ rearrange the session, but moving the marker just moves the marker. Also, you would still have to make a save as to save the original arrangement, therefore I would use the workflow I described earlier.. I am PT certified vanilla and HD so I know the program well. It's features like that you and others you describe that makes PT look limited to other DAW users!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 19, 2017 4:45:42 GMT -6
Feel free to shoot mixes at me. The funny thing is it's not necessarily the Mixes, I am cranking out stuff for clients more efficiently than ever and getting great results! I have issues with more or less my recording / takes and delivery of hook / verse recently! I do appreciate you man thanks and will send you some stuff soon... one thing I can say is that sometimes I mix the life or soulmoutta the record so I know you could help me in that regard.. I appreciate you always be down to help me bro 💯🙏🤠 kcatthedog wiz Yes pro tools has markers, however you would have to group everything you wanted to move at once in an edit group, then yes you could use this mix group to move/ rearrange the session, but moving the marker just moves the marker. Also, you would still have to make a save as to save the original arrangement, therefore I would use the workflow I described earlier.. I am PT certified vanilla and HD so I know the program well. It's features like that you and others you describe that makes PT look limited to other DAW users! I meant shoot me rough mixes of your raps. I'll critique your delivery and flow. Whatever you need.
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Post by rocinante on Jul 19, 2017 10:19:47 GMT -6
I just finished my band sai u drom's album 'in other words...' that spanned seven years of recording. Live we are an 8-10 piece and trying to recreate that plus add studio trickery was hard to say the least. I was also dealing with recordings that spanned 7 years with the last year devoted to mostly mixing. 9 years ago we started it and two years later just we were nearly done when a flood destroyed the studio and more importantly the hard drives. It literally washed out most of our work. At the time it was about 13 musicians on the album so it took me about 4 years to get up the strength to go back at it and try again. Luckily some of it was retrievable (about 20%). I was pretty heartbroken, devastated, and depressed and had a hard time, but eventually i mustered up the courage and prevailed. I wish I had the luxury to have somebody else mix the album but considering the material, the amount of musicians (all in its about 12), the amount of instruments (tuba, accordion, cello, violin, etc... plus samples) it would have cost me tens of tens of thousands of dollars and I'm not sure I'd be done now. I'd also never be able to get the same musicians as they are spread throughout the states and continent. I'm pretty happy with it and so are a lot of other people which is good. I'm going to post a thread soon,talking about the gear that I used, the instruments, guest musicians, and the beautiful mastering job done by RGO's very own Paul Orofino. A lot of guitars were also recorded on the Helios and Neve clones I built. Its got its rough spots but overall came out pretty well. Mixing an accordion recorded 5 years before with a cello a year before with vocals that ranged from 7 years to 4 months was trickey. Or two nylon classical guitars seperated by 6 years. It was like mixing ghosts. Several instruments werent recorded in the best quality but i needed to use them as the musicians playing them are either no longer alive or too far away to rerecord but needed to be on the album. Tricky stuff nevertheless. For those interested it is available for free on our website; www.saiudrom.com/mediaWe often get put under the Gypsy-punk genre but I'd categorize it as world/folk/punk. A magazine once described our shows as: "its like a poets party aboard a pirate ship" A friend called it "stranger gypsy folkin punk"
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 16:26:19 GMT -6
The other side of this issue is how much of a PITA it really is to work digitally. We all see the benefits, instant recall of a dozen mixes, plug-ins that sound like gear costing thousands of dollars, no tape to fuss with, but I swear if I'm honest, and look at all the factors and time spent, working digitally takes way longer than working analogue did. You have no idea how good it is to hear someone else say that!
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 20, 2017 16:04:44 GMT -6
So I had a buddy come over to help me decommission the studio and setup the new FootPrint stands and monitors and the fukn stands were not correct and not as described. So upset about that and now am waiting on new stand stands who knows how long that will be.. Since we couldn't decommission and I paid him I got to record... He is not an engineer by trade but can record someone and knows music very well. I still had to do a few engineering things but man it was so much better. I think I have got over my Rift and second guessing because he was saying takes were excellent that I thought were good but could be better... classic case of my own worst critic .. having a second pair of ears and thoughts is the great part, it can completely remove the self doubt and also help one push harder to really nail the performances ... Played a few other recordings I had done by myself and he was saying they were really good so he was telling me to get out of my own head and just do this ... he def looks up to me as an artist so talking with him gave me good constructive criticism him as well as positive feedback... Looking forward to mixing these new songs now 🤠😎 jcoutu1 thanks man i appreciate you and will let you know when I'm sending something over to ya 🙏💯
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Post by Guitar on Jul 25, 2017 19:02:49 GMT -6
Jesus, wiz , that is one of the best posts I have ever seen! Finding ways to stay honest and objective about your material is a big deal. Feedback from friends and family, if they are responding to a song or an idea positively, is incredibly significant, as an easy way of testing your material with the public. Talking to other musicians is more hit or miss for me. Sometimes they give honest feedback, sometimes they just hate everything you're trying to do, or just nitpicking like we do, and the feedback is largely irrelevant. My idea of a world class self-producer is someone like Prince, or Richard D. James. This is proof that it can be done, and done at a very high level. Honestly it's a lot harder than 'just being the guitar player' or whatever. But it's a challenge with the potential for big rewards. I once met up with a famous Gearslutz producer/poster in his famous big-city studio, I had a talk with him for a while. At the end, he was like, yeah, I'm gonna hand you off to my assistant for $500 a day, and I was like, yeah f%^& that. You want to do the same thing I'm trying to do, and you want me to pay for it. I realize that is not a best-case scenario, but it's the closest I've come in my own life to hiring a 'real' producer. What I did learn from that experience is the importance of having someone in the project with a vision for arrangement. Playing guitar in front of a microphone, singing a little, is not really a good stopping point for a lot of songs. I decided it was something I wanted to get a lot better at, so I've been trying harder since then. If you set goals, wishes, desires in the back of your mind, they have a way of manifesting themselves in reality after some time. Anyway, I say the bottom line is hammer away at is as hard as you can, if you feel like you need to get something out. You might just impress yourself.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 25, 2017 20:23:41 GMT -6
What's really important is that you get your engineering solid enough to mainly forget about it and focus on the artistic side. Is the tempo right, instrumentation, arrangement, vibe right, lyrics realy work, etc. Most great bands have had only one or two fortunate collaborations with great producers. It's that rare Fortunately, some of my friends have produced a lot of records, so I run things by them when I'm not sure about something. Still, piece by piece recording is far less likely to feel as good as a group of musicians hitting a groove together.
I plan to do both an acoustic record and a more rocking record after I finish my current one. The rocking one will have to be a band in a room or I'm just not going there. it's just too damn hard spending hours and hours trying to imitate that feeling and sound.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 26, 2017 6:03:59 GMT -6
The other side of this issue is how much of a PITA it really is to work digitally. We all see the benefits, instant recall of a dozen mixes, plug-ins that sound like gear costing thousands of dollars, no tape to fuss with, but I swear if I'm honest, and look at all the factors and time spent, working digitally takes way longer than working analogue did. You have no idea how good it is to hear someone else say that! I disagree in parts on both of you. I know my tools and I do not cahnge my tools every week, e.g. buying all the plug ins of the world. I work with my favourite plugs on a regular, constant basis, some of them are friends since 12 years. At least me... I am much faster than ever before. I am open to new technology, and the right workflow ... I am using an I pad and apple-trackpad here. Writeing/Arraneging never has been easier to me since Apple inventet the Logic-Drummer. It never was easier to get good drum sounds out of the computer. Depending on the stile of music its that good, taht it fools drummers. Programing Drums always was a pain in the A. special when you are not drummer. That was a big reason to me why some songs never came to an end. Logic Drummer is a GOD send becasue the drumming parts are not static, they are indeed more like a real human doing it. That is inspireing to me. It motivates me in arrangneing, becasue nothing is more boring than static drum parts. Yes some VI sound like fake - but. I learn to use my Buddies for this, to get rid of fake. Yes sometimes you need to let go the marketing hype that VI can do everything. Its to easy to belive in it, and its true it can make songs sound like plastic. And it happend to every modern DAW writer I know. Yes, not everything is Gold thats true, and I agree on this. But overall the invention of digital lets me work faster and better, with less fuzz and its more carefree. Given the fact that your workflow is not hindering you to do things the way you want them to do. It all comes down how you organize your arranging process in the DAW, and around you in your studio. Thats my deep believe. Its a constant progress and it never ends. With every song I find something to change my workflow, to make the process easier. It helps to get in the flow - doing it. I optimize not only short keys... everything that makes it easier to get the goal is intresting to me. Shortcuts programmed on the I pad, saves big time special if its always the same task to do. Knowing your sounds, which ones work, and which ones sound like fake, its important. I also know that my psyche can make a sound nicer than it is, the next day I think - what was I thinking. In my template I erase those sounds. Only sounds that give the thing something organic stay in my arrangeing template. The rest is real humans playing real instruments. BTW I use for diffrent stiles of music diffrent templates otherwise I loose track, focous on what I am doing. To me its not a matter of technology, old or new, its a matter of staying organized that the job gets done asap. Oterwise I lose track and motivation to do it at all. My 2 cents
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Post by adamjbrass on Jul 26, 2017 7:07:03 GMT -6
For the man with a lotta hats, I have found it is only proper to wear One hat per day,
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 26, 2017 8:46:22 GMT -6
Mrholmes, I wouldn't argue with a person like yourself who's worked hard to set up a highly functioning digital workflow. It makes perfect sense. Having a DAW and plug-ins, recall and editing gives one person a tremendous arsenal of capabilities. The thing is, most of the guys I know who really know how to get the most out of a plug-in had decades of hardcore experience with the real one or similar devices, and know them inside and out. It would take me the same amount of time to know what they do, so like everyone else, I look for tips online, ask friends, experiment a little, use some presets, and stumble through as best I can.
I use my computer and plug-ins all the time. I am slowly working my way back to as much hardware I can afford though, simply because I think it sounds better. For instance, the Relab XL480 plug-in I've used for over four years is nearly a dead ringer for the real one. It seems to be so close as to make the difference negligible. But every time someone sends me a track done with a hardware reverb, I've commented on the reverb quality, not knowing it was hardware, so something is going on there that A-B tests aren't revealing.
When I commented about analogue actually being faster than digital, I was taking into account all the studying it takes to grasp new things like Apple's drummer, ( which I still don't get), Flex pitch, (it took me two years of frustration and so many hours trying to fix issues before I finally discovered it creates artifacts when it splits up one long vocal part into a few pieces), Flex time, parallel processing, etc. The point is, we've all spent a lot of time becoming somewhat of a computer programmer/audio engineer to do this.
When I was analogue in the late 80's early nineties, I had multitrack and 2 track reel to reels, a Neumann U87, an RE-20, some 58's and 57's, Lexicon and Yamaha reverbs and delays, a spring reverb unit, DBX compression, a Yamaha sound board, Adcom power amp, NS-10's, Kurzweil and Emu keyboards, a patch bay and a few other things. I bought it all in one week, set it up in a day, and I swear, I never spent five minutes of downtime in 10 years. I had technicians check my reel to reels around every six months. I only needed basic engineering skills to pilot that rig and I managed to produce music for at least 100 radio and TV commercials that were broadcast as well as my own song demos.
If I could truly add up all the time I've spent digitally, including listening to sound files, reading about new plug-ins, purchasing them, loading software, dozens of emails to manufacturers when plug-ins aren't responding or authorizing, Ilok shutting me out of my own projects, projects not loading correctly, a thousand hours or more of conversations and emails over the years regarding how to make something work digitally, and on and on and on, I would bet I've spent 10X the amount of time learning to work as efficiently digitally as I did analogue.
So, let's say the learning curve has about leveled out now. I will use a DAW for recall, and some convenient plug-ins, and editing, but want to get back to a full analogue input, and full analogue mixdown eventually, using the computer only for editing and some plugs.
When I can finally complete my home system, ( I still need a second EQP-1A, a Stam SSL, another preamp, and one or two hardware reverbs, plus a few more mics) I will finally be able to do much of my work as I used to, only with the benefits of digital in the middle.
Hardware has less choices, so I tend find a couple of things I like, and use that all the time. Even the time spent researching something new and maybe wonderful in digital music production tools is time I'm not tracking, writing or mixing.
The allure of a plug-in possibly giving us 99% of what an expensive hardware piece does at a fraction of the cost has dazzled me and many of my friends for way too many hours, distracting us from the more essential writing, practicing, rehearsing, performing, and recording, and I'm trying to find my balance now and get more and better work done. Wish me luck.
As much as I've enjoyed making some great friends here and so appreciate the sage advice often given so generously, it's not the same as having a band of friends to play with. Economics and age have made that difficult, but I'm going to do my best to get that going in some form again.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 26, 2017 12:36:42 GMT -6
Martin John Butler Answer: I think it is exactly the opposite because of a good digital workflow everything gets easier, more intuitive. And because of this you start to listen more, instead of staring at the screen. I also have a shortcut for starting the screen saver. It helps a lot to close the eyes too. I use hardware too, but also software. The last Jazz Blues thing I mixed was 99% all ITB. For my taste it turned out pretty good. I like it and that is what counts. I don’t have decades of experience. I have a decade maybe, but do not forget I am not full time AE… what I do … I mix as long as I like what I hear. Than I step back a day or two, or more, and I do some corrections. I do it with small track counts, with big track counts, and over the years I found my way. Mixing ITB nothing comes for free. You have to think about what would happen in the analogue chain. Tony Shepperd always was right. „Mixing ITB requires thinking outside the box“ Answer: I learned one lesson very hard on the other blue board, but also sometimes on RGO. All this HW vs Software talk is not very helpful. It influences you on a psychological basis. Having the impression it could be better with some other gear… oh yes it will hold you back from listening with patience and passion. It gives you the feeling it could be better if you just.... Is gear making a difference? Sure it is, but the much bigger difference always is what you do with it. And making yourself insecure in mix time is a bad psychological game which just hurts yourself. I agree with Bill its about a workflow which makes YOU feel good, lets say comfortable. Producing with minimum obstacles. It makes you feel save and with this you mix with a lot more self confidence. Answer. No offending but flex pitch took me 45 minutes to say… nice but come one lets sing it another round. Or lets do a punch in. Logics drummer was new for me too it took me two songs to understand it without even reading the manual at all. Maybe I googled one or two times. Its super easy to create a good sounding drum track with it. In the Jazz-Blues thing I wrote its Logics Drummer. https%3A//soundcloud.com/andreasoberholz/hommage-a-lageDoing this without Logics Drummer? I would have jump right out of the window because of all the different dynamic feels which I would have had to code by hand. Now logic drummer followed my accompaniment guitar track and with this the dynamic feel of the song. What a gorgeous technology. Answer. What holds you back from limiting your tools in Logic and to simulate the late 80s again? Nothing is easier than that in the DAW. I never spent five minutes of downtime too. I always have a fresh updated clean install stored in my living rooms bookshelf, as well as a constant backup on the computer and online. If the damn HD crashes I am back in the game in less than 5 minutes. I pull out the bookshelf HD start from there and go to the session, load it - done… No offending again but installing everything you can demo or having a desktop full of things can ruin your system. Buy a fresh external SSD make one clean OSX install on it, nothing but just the daw the plugs the drivers of your converter on this SSD. I doubt shit can happen if you hold this thing CLEAN as possible. Answer: We talk the good old times where they need a tech or two in the studios to hold everything alive and working. The times where out of a sudden a buzz noise was there and after every trick failed you had to yell the name of the tech and you had a break for three or more hours. You really miss that? All the old dogs I had the pleasure to talk too miss it like "a fish misses hemorrhoids". Most of them work like you and me - hybrid at home, and they are more happy than ever before. If a single plug in is not working I write to the support and I use a different one in the meantime after a day or two they write back to me and we solve the problem without having any downtime at all. Oh and without paying a tech. The invention of the DAW alone saves me tons off cash and tons of time. Lifetime! I don’t live forever. I thank god for the DAW. I am not kidding you. I feel blessed that I can see technology making my day easier. Answer: Thats nothing different form what I said earlier, create your own workflow. Answer: You already have great tools. My biggest step forward was working with my Mentor which I am grateful for because he is a very famous producer with tons of experience. But I also learned a lot by watching the great mixing videos by Slate. Seeing how others are doing it always inspired me to try things in a different way. Experimenting, going nuts is a big part of my process. Answer: Once again limit your plug choices and learn what does not comes for free mixing on the digital media vs mixing in the old times. You are right its all about making decisions in the producing process. Sure, the lesser choices you have, the more your environment forces you to set it and to go on with your work. But that is nothing different from yesteryear. If you do not do decide because of the digital possibilities, sure you are stuck. And that habit is faster as you can say NO your second nature. I had it myself. Just make decisions and go on, if it was wrong you can correct it later at anytime. Answer: Again comparing plugs to hardware is not a big help. Use the tools for what they are. Thats the day you learn how they can work for you. You need to study them a little. Like you would do it with hardware as well. Stop comparing them, work with them. Try to mix something that sounds good to you, you mix for you and not for someone else. It's your song, and its your mix. The only one who needs to enjoy it is you. Having joy at work is much easier if your workflow is indeed helping to stay in the creative flow. I had this as well. But we work in a business where technology always is in progress. My impression is nostalgia, locking back is stoping me from moving forward. Logic Drummer is easy to learn. I could explain it to you in less than 30 Minutes and I am 100% sure you would smile and say something like: "Cool this Drummer is never late to the session, nor he is drunk, and he now sounds real enough too" No offending again: You need to stop to diabolize tools which are very important for you in tough business times. The diabolizing has a big influence on you. With this its logical to me that learning new tools in Logic X starts with feeling uncomfortable. Not a good start to learn something. I had this too, but its NG, its not helping a lot. I use Logic since version 6 and I can say Logic 10 is most intuitive Version I ever had. My 15 old nephew was ready to track something in less than 10 minutes with only two questions. "Which is input 5 on your hardware and what kind of mic can I use."
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