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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 15, 2017 9:39:02 GMT -6
I've always run through my sub to the monitors...which I know isn't ideal. I guess it requires more outputs from the DA I guess. I guess I could possibly come out of my Apollo mon outs into the sub and then go out of my Svartbox (which is my main da) into the monitors. I guess just set the sub volume by ear?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 15, 2017 11:27:01 GMT -6
Yes, in my mind it's one of those paths that would be more trouble than it's worth. You could split/ y cord from the DA out but then you need to dial in the high pass on the monitors and low pass on the sub to match/ work together.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 15, 2017 11:47:39 GMT -6
Yes, in my mind it's one of those paths that would be more trouble than it's worth. You could split/ y cord from the DA out but then you need to dial in the high pass on the monitors and low pass on the sub to match/ work together. You could use an electronic crossover to do the split - that would give you the frequency control you need. Since most pro level PA systems have gone over to all-in-one processor units for the most part it should be easy to find a high quality unit for relatively cheap on the used market. You'd need to figure out what crossover slope would be best suited to the application - electronic crossovers are available in 12dB, 18 dB and 24 dB versions. (18 dB usually requires a polarity flip on the HF section, IIRC.) Some crossovers, like the venerable Crown VFX-2 (which was designed to also be used a a laboratory filter bank) allow separate frequency selection on the high and low pass sections, so you could easily set the amount of overlap or notch between sections. (Back in the old days I used to love the VFX-2 (for PA work) for its versatility, but these days you'd probably want to upgrade the chips to something more modern.) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 15, 2017 12:52:59 GMT -6
This kinda came from the Amphion guy admonishing me for going through the sub lol. But honestly, I can't hear a difference
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 15, 2017 12:53:14 GMT -6
Sound like too much trouble.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 15, 2017 13:38:26 GMT -6
Yes, in my mind it's one of those paths that would be more trouble than it's worth. You could split/ y cord from the DA out but then you need to dial in the high pass on the monitors and low pass on the sub to match/ work together. You could use an electronic crossover to do the split - that would give you the frequency control you need. Since most pro level PA systems have gone over to all-in-one processor units for the most part it should be easy to find a high quality unit for relatively cheap on the used market. You'd need to figure out what crossover slope would be best suited to the application - electronic crossovers are available in 12dB, 18 dB and 24 dB versions. (18 dB usually requires a polarity flip on the HF section, IIRC.) Some crossovers, like the venerable Crown VFX-2 (which was designed to also be used a a laboratory filter bank) allow separate frequency selection on the high and low pass sections, so you could easily set the amount of overlap or notch between sections. (Back in the old days I used to love the VFX-2 (for PA work) for its versatility, but these days you'd probably want to upgrade the chips to something more modern.) Yes but for the most part that would mean probably going through the same crap that's in the sub! Now the Crown and the expensive Bryston 10 series are probably the best selectable freq options, but finding a good one is hard and the freaking Bryston won't let you have asymmetrical filters ! The next best would probably be TDM the BSS sweepable models and Newer Ashly or The better yet but more work a BSS FDS 360 or FDS 340, but you need the cards and need to be able to build the filters on the cards. I do have a 360 that some day I need to have Jim Williams go all AudioUpgrades on. The other options would be Digital drive boxes, but that means you have to find one where you like the AD & DA Converters or one with Digital in and a 4 ch of DA you like. In both cases Dolby/Clair/Lake or XTA. Quested amongst others use XTA OEM boxes with their large systems. The true advantage of the digital boxes is you can set up Muliple profiles and flip between them Mains and sub both with crossover filters Mains full range with subs with filters Mains full range no sub Mains with a low cut no sub. And you can use some DSP for room , speaker and bass problem solving, however tweaking is all about trade offs. I am tempted to pick up a bargain XTA for simple filter testing with new designs. Lesser digital boxes suffer from poor Converters, Analog sections and Course control. For PA use I do like the Ashly digital boxes but unless Modded they just don't what I would expect from a Studio rig . I think the Amphion guy wants to run the Mains full range and use the filter on the sub, we used to call this more of Bass augmentation rather than a sub system or thumper. What I don't like about this type of system is that 2 big reasons for adding a sub are less distortion in the upper range of the mains woofer because it's not going as low and the cone doesn't have to deal with the effects of the larger LF movements. Less distortion because the mains LF driver isn't trying to do things it can't and the freq extremes are where most drivers have the most distortion! Another reason is Full range LF content is going to use most of your amps power, the Amp is still going to make a big 20HZ wave even if the driver can't reproduce it so your drawing more current and your going to loose headroom, if the amp isn't makeing those big LF waves. Also running the Mains Fullrange means you have 2 different drivers with different phase response, and distorting acusticly summing so that summed response is going to be funky to say the least! Even the best drivers at their very best are going to distort more than the cheapest variable crossover in a prosumer sub! I Get the Amphion monitor design, but the design and suggested implementation of the subs as always left me scratching my head, it seams like the design leans far more towards an aesthetically pleasing simple design to fill demand rather than a well designed sub system. This is one of many examples of subs that a manufacturer has marketed as being a perfect fit for their monitors than what others offer as a generic solution. Systems like this are an easy sell because in the short run your impressed by the extend LF and LF SPL it's only latter you realize what you gave up to get there and that's a high price to pay. I know John isn't using the Amp sub , but I still feel just leave it. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 15, 2017 23:47:59 GMT -6
There are two Crown VFX2s on Ebay right now. One is from a guy who is clearly delusional but the the listed price on the other is $300, which isn't too bad. However you might be able to find one for for less if you shopped around.
There's a more recent Crown, the FFX2, but it's not nearly as desirable - it changes frequencies by swapping internal plug-in resistors amd uses screw terminals for connections.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 16, 2017 11:20:43 GMT -6
There are two Crown VFX2s on Ebay right now. One is from a guy who is clearly delusional but the the listed price on the other is $300, which isn't too bad. However you might be able to find one for for less if you shopped around. There's a more recent Crown, the FFX2, but it's not nearly as desirable - it changes frequencies by swapping internal plug-in resistors amd uses screw terminals for connections. The last 2 I saw had a bunch of leaky caps and other crap. The Thing is like so many pieces while loved by Guys like you and me, they were pulled years ago for something new and "better" sold for $50 to guys who unlike me didn't see the magic and treated it like it was a Cheap Peavy or Behringer! Damn it John Now you have me thinking all nestalgic about a fucking Crossover ! No I don't need another crossover! But... |
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Post by svart on Jul 16, 2017 11:30:50 GMT -6
I have a sub that's matched to the monitors, and has the internal calibration and all that..
Never liked it when I was using it as I was supposed to use it.
So what I did was just run it in parallel, and let the natural frequencies of the monitors and sub overlap. it's not going to be perfect for frequency response, but I naturally tend to mix very bottom heavy, so having those bottom registers overlap gives me more low end than is natural, so I tend to keep from mixing in too much lows.
So far it's been working great for me. Don't overthink it, just try stuff until it works for you.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 16, 2017 17:15:55 GMT -6
There are two Crown VFX2s on Ebay right now. One is from a guy who is clearly delusional but the the listed price on the other is $300, which isn't too bad. However you might be able to find one for for less if you shopped around. There's a more recent Crown, the FFX2, but it's not nearly as desirable - it changes frequencies by swapping internal plug-in resistors amd uses screw terminals for connections. The last 2 I saw had a bunch of leaky caps and other crap. The Thing is like so many pieces while loved by Guys like you and me, they were pulled years ago for something new and "better" sold for $50 to guys who unlike me didn't see the magic and treated it like it was a Cheap Peavy or Behringer! Damn it John Now you have me thinking all nestalgic about a fucking Crossover ! No I don't need another crossover! But... Well it's only a crossover - there aren't that many caps in there to begin with. It's not like it was a console or a 24 track. (I mostly recapped the audio cards in my Studer 24 track. Big pain. Not like a console thoutgh.) |
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