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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 30, 2017 12:06:25 GMT -6
This kind of dovetails with the last few threads I started (your most impactful piece and the nothing more depressing thread). I've simplified my approach. No more summing...i don't know whether it was the process of multiple trips through DA or a cheap patchbay...but I just felt like I was losing some detail. Maybe I have come to realize (yet again) that I like more modern records and modern full-spectrum sounds...but I'm always looking for places to put money - hopefully some in the bank too. eric mentioned that he thought while I might find a better DA, it would only be either slight or different than the SB I have. I experienced that when trying out the Hilo. I think I could say it was objectively tighter on bottom and maybe a little smoother on top, but like I mentioned, I'm not sure it would have made me mix things differently. Same with the Black Lion Mkiii Clock. (They actually had very similar effects) So - what would you do at this point? Another mic? Pre? Better power amp? Chase the DA dragon? AD? ragan a Symphony? I guess I'm looking for something that takes all my existing equipment to the next level...where and what is that unicorn?
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Post by BradM on Jun 30, 2017 13:39:40 GMT -6
What about attending one of those mix with the masters things? To freshen up your skills and inspire you. That may be more valuable than gear at this point. Or how about hiring a really talented/accomplished engineer to mentor you? That might take all your existing equipment to the next level.
In my personal journey to make better recordings I've always found that I'm the weakest link in my chain.
Brad
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Post by schmalzy on Jun 30, 2017 14:09:01 GMT -6
What about attending one of those mix with the masters things? Brad This is exactly what was thinking as I was reading your post. Mix With The Masters. Ronan Chris Murphy does a destination Recording Bootcamp (that he actually started BEFORE MWTM started if I remember correctly). I know, without a doubt, that I'm the weakest piece of gear I have. I'm trying to get better so I'll be better able to utilize with discernment my existing gear. ...also I need to get a nice condensor for vocals - the at4040 just isn't always doing it for me - but you've got that covered if I remember correctly!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 30, 2017 14:15:25 GMT -6
I hear what you're saying, but I don't think I particularly need mixing fundamentals at this point...
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Post by 79sg on Jun 30, 2017 14:19:49 GMT -6
What is it about the end result that you feel is not where you'd like it to be?
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Post by BradM on Jun 30, 2017 14:25:57 GMT -6
I hear what you're saying, but I don't think I particularly need mixing fundamentals at this point... I wasn't implying fundamentals. I was implying ninja training. Out of curiosity...which pieces of gear have you had in your studio for 10 years or longer? That might help us recommend things that actually will work for you. Brad
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Post by svart on Jun 30, 2017 14:34:11 GMT -6
You've had some pretty good gear through there. I'm leaning towards maybe rethinking your approach to mixing. it's not really a fundamentals refresher, but a rethinking of what you are going for. I did the same thing a few years ago and I'd say it's pretty eye opening to start really doing stuff you'd think was crazy.
Some of the things I've seen differently is compression *amounts*. Folks will say "I put a little compression on it" when they really mean like 10dB+ of compression.. Or they'll say something like "I put a little 10K on the vocals" and they really mean like 15dB of 10K..
In other words, maybe try to forget what you've heard and just go wild for a while.
Or since you're in Nashville with a lot of great engineers/mixers, take some of the stuff you've done and go to someone else that has a sound more like what you want and ask(pay) them to mix it again while you sit and listen/learn. It's always interesting to see how someone else interprets things that you've become too close to.
Getting out of the box will certainly give you a new perspective.
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Post by ragan on Jun 30, 2017 15:02:28 GMT -6
This kind of dovetails with the last few threads I started (your most impactful piece and the nothing more depressing thread). I've simplified my approach. No more summing...i don't know whether it was the process of multiple trips through DA or a cheap patchbay...but I just felt like I was losing some detail. Maybe I have come to realize (yet again) that I like more modern records and modern full-spectrum sounds...but I'm always looking for places to put money - hopefully some in the bank too. eric mentioned that he thought while I might find a better DA, it would only be either slight or different than the SB I have. I experienced that when trying out the Hilo. I think I could say it was objectively tighter on bottom and maybe a little smoother on top, but like I mentioned, I'm not sure it would have made me mix things differently. Same with the Black Lion Mkiii Clock. (They actually had very similar effects) So - what would you do at this point? Another mic? Pre? Better power amp? Chase the DA dragon? AD? ragan a Symphony? I guess I'm looking for something that takes all my existing equipment to the next level...where and what is that unicorn? That's a tough one. Great advice already here but since you asked me specifically about the Symphony I'll give my current thoughts. The more I use it and the more I go back and forth with tracks I did the BF Apollo, the more the quality difference is apparent. I can spot it quickly now. Conversion is so tricky/touchy/voodoo-y as far as people's opinions on it and where it falls in the sonic priority food chain. For me, it's gotten higher up, priority wise, in the last few years. It's nothing compared to source/room/mic of course but it is still seriously vital. It's your capture and your playback. The Symphony is no magic unicorn of course but I have come to really appreciate the sonics it brings. Thing just sound more natural and less veiled to me. The places the various sources sit in the soundstage are clearer and easier to manage and that to me is worth a lot. I also really miss my Burl when I hear some of those tracks. Particularly acoustic guitars. There's just a 'thing' it does that nothing else does. But it was an awful lot of coin for 2 channels of ADC. Still not worth it for my budget. The Symphony giving me 8 channels of what I consider to be really beautiful AD and DA make it worth it for me. Impossible for me to say if it would be worth it for you of course, but that's my take on it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 30, 2017 15:21:26 GMT -6
This kind of dovetails with the last few threads I started (your most impactful piece and the nothing more depressing thread). I've simplified my approach. No more summing...i don't know whether it was the process of multiple trips through DA or a cheap patchbay...but I just felt like I was losing some detail. Maybe I have come to realize (yet again) that I like more modern records and modern full-spectrum sounds...but I'm always looking for places to put money - hopefully some in the bank too. eric mentioned that he thought while I might find a better DA, it would only be either slight or different than the SB I have. I experienced that when trying out the Hilo. I think I could say it was objectively tighter on bottom and maybe a little smoother on top, but like I mentioned, I'm not sure it would have made me mix things differently. Same with the Black Lion Mkiii Clock. (They actually had very similar effects) So - what would you do at this point? Another mic? Pre? Better power amp? Chase the DA dragon? AD? ragan a Symphony? I guess I'm looking for something that takes all my existing equipment to the next level...where and what is that unicorn? That's a tough one. Great advice already here but since you asked me specifically about the Symphony I'll give my current thoughts. The more I use it and the more I go back and forth with tracks I did the BF Apollo, the more the quality difference is apparent. I can spot it quickly now. Conversion is so tricky/touchy/voodoo-y as far as people's opinions on it and where it falls in the sonic priority food chain. For me, it's gotten higher up, priority wise, in the last few years. It's nothing compared to source/room/mic of course but it is still seriously vital. It's your capture and your playback. The Symphony is no magic unicorn of course but I have come to really appreciate the sonics it brings. Thing just sound more natural and less veiled to me. The places the various sources sit in the soundstage are clearer and easier to manage and that to me is worth a lot. I also really miss my Burl when I hear some of those tracks. Particularly acoustic guitars. There's just a 'thing' it does that nothing else does. But it was an awful lot of coin for 2 channels of ADC. Still not worth it for my budget. The Symphony giving me 8 channels of what I consider to be really beautiful AD and DA make it worth it for me. Impossible for me to say if it would be worth it for you of course, but that's my take on it. I'm actually leaning towards it...although I could see keeping the Apollo...The 2x6 doesn't have the new ADDA does it?
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Post by ragan on Jun 30, 2017 15:55:00 GMT -6
That's a tough one. Great advice already here but since you asked me specifically about the Symphony I'll give my current thoughts. The more I use it and the more I go back and forth with tracks I did the BF Apollo, the more the quality difference is apparent. I can spot it quickly now. Conversion is so tricky/touchy/voodoo-y as far as people's opinions on it and where it falls in the sonic priority food chain. For me, it's gotten higher up, priority wise, in the last few years. It's nothing compared to source/room/mic of course but it is still seriously vital. It's your capture and your playback. The Symphony is no magic unicorn of course but I have come to really appreciate the sonics it brings. Thing just sound more natural and less veiled to me. The places the various sources sit in the soundstage are clearer and easier to manage and that to me is worth a lot. I also really miss my Burl when I hear some of those tracks. Particularly acoustic guitars. There's just a 'thing' it does that nothing else does. But it was an awful lot of coin for 2 channels of ADC. Still not worth it for my budget. The Symphony giving me 8 channels of what I consider to be really beautiful AD and DA make it worth it for me. Impossible for me to say if it would be worth it for you of course, but that's my take on it. I'm actually leaning towards it...although I could see keeping the Apollo...The 2x6 doesn't have the new ADDA does it? I think that's correct. There isn't a MKII 2x6 card.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2017 17:26:58 GMT -6
As I said elsewhere maybe try something like ATC SCM25 three ways.
If you think the Burl added something your missing grab another. I might try a outboard verb, say a used lexicon or something just to see.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 1, 2017 1:03:32 GMT -6
You getting together with a few engineers in Nashvegas would be great for you... to hear / learn another perspective from experienced talented people will motivate the Shit out of you and cost less than symphony 🤘😎
Have you owned a symphony mk1 before? I ask because the 2x6 card I looked at to purchase is not mk2 converters, they are the same cards from mk1 chassis..
Now if the mk2 chassis has the improved circuit and power supply than this can make the 2x6 card probably audibly different.. I may be wrong tho.. power supplies are important . Old mk1 was bad with fan noise so with a new fan layout and improved power supply may be worth it even though the actually converter card is mk1...
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 1, 2017 1:24:32 GMT -6
I see it this way ..... If I have great gear there is a point where I just stop buying new gear and its time for Rock and Roll. Who cares if its a little duller, or less detail. The Magic is in the song.
In other words the next piece I get is a piece of cake.... and I have to vacum clean the flat.*
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Post by lcr on Jul 1, 2017 9:02:25 GMT -6
I agree with whats already been mentioned, try and sponge from others. I'll use upgrading cables as an example. If I swap to "better" cables and they impart a brighter sound, Im still gonna mix the top end how I think it needs to be, probably boosting less because the cabling is brighter. The only way to upgrade the mixer is by learning from others. And not my favorite mixer uses this piece of gear, instead if you solo their guitars it sounds like this. Because whatever gear your favorite mixer uses, you could swap it out with pro sumer stuff they're still gonna get the guitars sitting near the same level, dynamic range and eq'ed the way they mix. I think I would most benefit from rubber necking mixers above my skill set instead of upgrading anything.
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Post by drsax on Jul 1, 2017 9:24:33 GMT -6
Johnkenn - I think sometimes simple is best. We often look at "adding" lots of gear as we search for that extra mojo that will inspire us. I think simply focusing on your master buss might be a good area to investigate. I have tried many things there and the LTL Silver Bullet by BradM and drbill has me smiling these days. Bigger and more open sounding than my buss comps alone, and I can get that extra mojo without my mixes closing up. My goal on my Master buss is to keep things simple and try to not have things change. I want less things to fiddle with and focus on mixing and making music. I keep the settings the same as much as possible and then engage the EQ and filters only if needed or I would use the EQ for sweetening if mastering. Brad offers a no risk trial, so it's a no brainer to give it a shot. If you try it, I'd be happy to share my fav settings. In your situation, if you like modern production I'd try his regular silver version as opposed to the Void Corps edition. I too like to retain clarity and although I love analog mojo, I don't want to hear any smearing or hearing things get smoothed out too much. I've found a spot that balances between the API amp into the Neve Amp and it sounds pretty darn sweet. And to boot you can use it as a sweet stereo mic pre and it also has a great sounding bandaxall EQ and useful EQ filters as well.
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Post by sean on Jul 1, 2017 10:30:17 GMT -6
That's a tough one...I often wonder that myself. Certainly don't "need" anything...just wants. I'm recording so much I've really enjoyed buying instruments that inspire creativity for the musicians...I think the "studio is a playground" mindset is really smart. I'd rather have some fun keyboards and 12 strings and high strung guitars and a marching bass drum and a marimba than a microphone at this point.
I do find myself mixing with too much low mids and not enough sparkle and part of the is the studio itself and the nature of having to close mic things because I'm recording bands live and can't have a ton of bleed so I'm always dealing with proximity effect...but I'd like to find a thing that lets me hear that better, not after the mix is "done" and I got back and find myself adding some 16K and scooping out some 300. I thought about getting something like a mix buss EQ with just some preset boost that I mix into...
Honestly, I bought a Midiverb II for $7 and it was really inspiring. It just "fit" the record I was working on at the moment. Dreamy reverse reverbs...who knew! Just keeping it fun and inspiring is the key.
I actually signed up for PureMix because I wanted to watch the Andrew Scheps videos because I'm mixing in the box a lot now. That site is on sale and I think it was worth the price. It gave me some new ideas to pull from. Mix with the Masters is probably interesting too
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Post by swurveman on Jul 1, 2017 10:51:05 GMT -6
What about attending one of those mix with the masters things? To freshen up your skills and inspire you. That may be more valuable than gear at this point. Or how about hiring a really talented/accomplished engineer to mentor you? That might take all your existing equipment to the next level. In my personal journey to make better recordings I've always found that I'm the weakest link in my chain. Brad Or for lot less money, spend more time a/b -ing with reference mixes. I've been reading A LOT about Billy Decker who is all itb. He never talks about hardware. Hell, I can't even find what converters he uses. He probably gets all kinds of mixes tracked on different converters. He'll send his songs to all kinds of different mastering houses who probably use all kinds of different converters. What he does talk about is a/b ing songs for reference , having a computer system that doesn't crap out, samples, and plugins. For his pro stuff he doesn't use anything other than an L2 on the mix bus. Of course he's sending his mixes to great mastering houses, but I wonder how much they're actually improving his mix. I really don't know. When he self masters he uses an EQ on his mix bus and an L2. For his method: He's compressing and limiting the shit out of his individual channels and pulling down his master fader. He does a lot of low pass filtering on everything and mixes hot in the 5-10K range. instead of EQ'ing kick and snare he uses three samples of each- high/mid/low - and then parallel compresses the kick and snare on different channels with an SSL type plugin compressor. I know everybody doesn't want to be Billy Decker, but you cannot argue with his success even though you may hate the type of temeplate based music he's mixing. The guy never talks about hardware. Just an interesting counterpoint to gear obsession. Lastly, his room looks very well tuned and has lots of wood, but he's using Mackie speakers. The guy could get any speaker he wants.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 1, 2017 12:14:59 GMT -6
What about attending one of those mix with the masters things? To freshen up your skills and inspire you. That may be more valuable than gear at this point. Or how about hiring a really talented/accomplished engineer to mentor you? That might take all your existing equipment to the next level. In my personal journey to make better recordings I've always found that I'm the weakest link in my chain. Brad Or for lot less money, spend more time a/b -ing with reference mixes. I've been reading A LOT about Billy Decker who is all itb. He never talks about hardware. Hell, I can't even find what converters he uses. He probably gets all kinds of mixes tracked on different converters. He'll send his songs to all kinds of different mastering houses who probably use all kinds of different converters. What he does talk about is a/b ing songs for reference , having a computer system that doesn't crap out, samples, and plugins. For his pro stuff he doesn't use anything other than an L2 on the mix bus. Of course he's sending his mixes to great mastering houses, but I wonder how much they're actually improving his mix. I really don't know. When he self masters he uses an EQ on his mix bus and an L2. For his method: He's compressing and limiting the shit out of his individual channels and pulling down his master fader. He does a lot of low pass filtering on everything and mixes hot in the 5-10K range. instead of EQ'ing kick and snare he uses three samples of each- high/mid/low - and then parallel compresses the kick and snare on different channels with an SSL type plugin compressor. I know everybody doesn't want to be Billy Decker, but you cannot argue with his success even though you may hate the type of temeplate based music he's mixing. The guy never talks about hardware. Just an interesting counterpoint to gear obsession. Lastly, his room looks very well tuned and has lots of wood, but he's using Mackie speakers. The guy could get any speaker he wants. When I Google his name, the second link is all about the Metric Halo "gear" he uses.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 1, 2017 12:26:22 GMT -6
Or for lot less money, spend more time a/b -ing with reference mixes. I've been reading A LOT about Billy Decker who is all itb. He never talks about hardware. Hell, I can't even find what converters he uses. He probably gets all kinds of mixes tracked on different converters. He'll send his songs to all kinds of different mastering houses who probably use all kinds of different converters. What he does talk about is a/b ing songs for reference , having a computer system that doesn't crap out, samples, and plugins. For his pro stuff he doesn't use anything other than an L2 on the mix bus. Of course he's sending his mixes to great mastering houses, but I wonder how much they're actually improving his mix. I really don't know. When he self masters he uses an EQ on his mix bus and an L2. For his method: He's compressing and limiting the shit out of his individual channels and pulling down his master fader. He does a lot of low pass filtering on everything and mixes hot in the 5-10K range. instead of EQ'ing kick and snare he uses three samples of each- high/mid/low - and then parallel compresses the kick and snare on different channels with an SSL type plugin compressor. I know everybody doesn't want to be Billy Decker, but you cannot argue with his success even though you may hate the type of temeplate based music he's mixing. The guy never talks about hardware. Just an interesting counterpoint to gear obsession. Lastly, his room looks very well tuned and has lots of wood, but he's using Mackie speakers. The guy could get any speaker he wants. When I Google his name, the second link is all about the Metric Halo "gear" he uses. Here's his mix tutorial. He uses a lot of Waves stuff and uses Trigger. If you look at some of his presets, you"ll see "CLA". Apparently he met CLA when he was in Nashville and CLA walked him through what he does channel by channel. Here's him posting from the purple place: He's had his share of #1 hits.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 1, 2017 12:28:39 GMT -6
What about attending one of those mix with the masters things? To freshen up your skills and inspire you. That may be more valuable than gear at this point. Or how about hiring a really talented/accomplished engineer to mentor you? That might take all your existing equipment to the next level. In my personal journey to make better recordings I've always found that I'm the weakest link in my chain. Brad Or for lot less money, spend more time a/b -ing with reference mixes. I've been reading A LOT about Billy Decker who is all itb. He never talks about hardware. Hell, I can't even find what converters he uses. He probably gets all kinds of mixes tracked on different converters. He'll send his songs to all kinds of different mastering houses who probably use all kinds of different converters. What he does talk about is a/b ing songs for reference , having a computer system that doesn't crap out, samples, and plugins. For his pro stuff he doesn't use anything other than an L2 on the mix bus. Of course he's sending his mixes to great mastering houses, but I wonder how much they're actually improving his mix. I really don't know. When he self masters he uses an EQ on his mix bus and an L2. For his method: He's compressing and limiting the shit out of his individual channels and pulling down his master fader. He does a lot of low pass filtering on everything and mixes hot in the 5-10K range. instead of EQ'ing kick and snare he uses three samples of each- high/mid/low - and then parallel compresses the kick and snare on different channels with an SSL type plugin compressor. I know everybody doesn't want to be Billy Decker, but you cannot argue with his success even though you may hate the type of temeplate based music he's mixing. The guy never talks about hardware. Just an interesting counterpoint to gear obsession. Lastly, his room looks very well tuned and has lots of wood, but he's using Mackie speakers. The guy could get any speaker he wants. I know Billy really well. He's mixed a lot of my stuff. All ITB. Two years ago we had a "hot"mixer mix two of the standout songs on an ep. Every price of hardware you could imagine. Big console. Paid $1000 apiece. Had Billy mix the rest and his mixes killed the other guy's. He does compress just about everything. And you're right about the L2. He made me much less shy about using it.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 1, 2017 12:31:27 GMT -6
Anyone wanna buy all my gear?
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Post by swurveman on Jul 1, 2017 12:39:53 GMT -6
Or for lot less money, spend more time a/b -ing with reference mixes. I've been reading A LOT about Billy Decker who is all itb. He never talks about hardware. Hell, I can't even find what converters he uses. He probably gets all kinds of mixes tracked on different converters. He'll send his songs to all kinds of different mastering houses who probably use all kinds of different converters. What he does talk about is a/b ing songs for reference , having a computer system that doesn't crap out, samples, and plugins. For his pro stuff he doesn't use anything other than an L2 on the mix bus. Of course he's sending his mixes to great mastering houses, but I wonder how much they're actually improving his mix. I really don't know. When he self masters he uses an EQ on his mix bus and an L2. For his method: He's compressing and limiting the shit out of his individual channels and pulling down his master fader. He does a lot of low pass filtering on everything and mixes hot in the 5-10K range. instead of EQ'ing kick and snare he uses three samples of each- high/mid/low - and then parallel compresses the kick and snare on different channels with an SSL type plugin compressor. I know everybody doesn't want to be Billy Decker, but you cannot argue with his success even though you may hate the type of temeplate based music he's mixing. The guy never talks about hardware. Just an interesting counterpoint to gear obsession. Lastly, his room looks very well tuned and has lots of wood, but he's using Mackie speakers. The guy could get any speaker he wants. I know Billy really well. He's mixed a lot of my stuff. All ITB. Two years ago we had a "hot"mixer mix two of the standout songs on an ep. Every price of hardware you could imagine. Big console. Paid $1000 apiece. Had Billy mix the rest and his mixes killed the other guy's. He does compress just about everything. And you're right about the L2. He made me much less shy about using it. Yep. He uses the L2 on instruments on individual channels too, particularly acoustics. I suppose to keep up with how loud he's slamming the drums without effecting (that much) how his acoustic guitars sound when they've been tracked.
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Post by drbill on Jul 1, 2017 12:43:59 GMT -6
Anyone wanna buy all my gear? I do. How much?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 1, 2017 12:48:27 GMT -6
Anyone wanna buy all my gear? I do. How much? To start, the SPL Passeq can be yours for the low, low, price of $3500.
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Post by drbill on Jul 1, 2017 13:33:59 GMT -6
I want the good stuff. For a reasonable price!!
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