|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 22, 2017 16:01:46 GMT -6
Was at a big show tonnight of a famoues EU / US artist at one of the best sounding open air areas here in Berlin.
The live AE must be deaf it was loud as hell I bet it was more than 100 db SPL 50 meters away from the stage. In any postion it does not matters which one I try I had massive base waves moving into my body. The top end was full blown, it did hurt in the ears. I took out my ear plugs but many paying fans where pissed. Lucky me I found one OK spot.
But why the hell they hire deaf AE for the FOH thing.
The best show I ever heard was Pat Metheny Group in the 90s. It was so great mixed that you had the impression that you listen to the record.
|
|
|
Post by mulmany on Jun 22, 2017 16:21:06 GMT -6
I had a medium size touring group come through my place... Members of the band run a full time commercial studio... FOH was 116db spl. I told them it was too loud, they shrugged it off and the show went on. Half the audience left with in the first 3 songs. I left during the first song of sound check, not worth it!
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,817
|
Post by ericn on Jun 22, 2017 16:29:33 GMT -6
Many FOH mix with ear plugs because the clients or audiences expect the high SPL. You don't get/ keep the gig if your not making somebody happy, so somebody likes high SPL!
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Jun 22, 2017 17:55:28 GMT -6
I quit live mixing about 20 years ago. The reason? Guitarists who refused to play at level that didn't exceed the capabilities of the PA system (or my hearing) especially in smaller venues.
There's not much you can do when a fat ego runs a Marshall stack flat out pointed straight off stage into the audience and threatens to come over and "sort you out" if you ask him to turn down one more time.
My solution? I went to the bar!
I used to wear earplugs but if I had enough control over the level I would keep it sensible and not wear them all the time.
I figured if I needed to wear them then it was too loud.
Besides a mix can sound bigger and fatter at lower volumes than a mix where everything is maxed out, clipping (or being hard limited) and there is so much onstage spill that everthing is bleeding into every mic.
I was freelance and also did FOH for a small local operator.
The best gigs were the larger outdoor jobs where the off stage sound could never dominate the FOH.
|
|
|
Post by schmalzy on Jun 22, 2017 18:22:56 GMT -6
I do FOH for a cover band in my town. They play small to small-medium clubs.
I like to run my shows below 100db at the desk. Every time the guys get off stage, they ask me to turn it up. They're looking more at 108db. 100 is already too much for me.
"Bounce their asses out of their seats!" says the guy whose on-stage wedge is loud enough to bounce off the back wall of the venue and be a nice little center fill/reverb channel.
I get the first songs out of the way and then I'm wearing earplugs the rest of the night. I'll pull one out to re-evaluate the mix every-so-often and then put the plug back in.
The other guy who works when I'm not doesn't wear plugs and runs his shows loud as hell. I have to imagine he has significant hearing loss.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Jun 22, 2017 18:39:54 GMT -6
I had a technique for getting loud guitarists to turn down. If the off stage guitar was too loud I would signal to the guitar player to lower their volume. Some did, most didn't and would usually just turn back up again. Once it became obvious I wasn't getting any cooperation I would very gradually begin to send the guitar into the lead singer's monitor. The level was increased subtlety over maybe one or two songs until the singer would indicate they were getting a lot of guitar in their monitor. I would then point to the guitarist and shrug my shoulders. Typically the singer would then tell the guitarist to turn down. I would watch very closely that they actually were turning down and then lower the guitar in the singer's monitor in sync with the guitar player. Then the singer would typically give me the good 'Ol thumbs up and we would be good. If the guitarist began to turn up again then I would repeat the process and usually once the singer heard the guitar in their monitor again they would automatically turn to the guitarist without raising the issue directly with me. If the singer asked me after the gig or set why there was so much guitar in their monitor I would just tell them the onstage guitar sound was spilling into their vocal mic and being routed back by their own monitor send which was out of my control. Of course it didn't always work... the knucklehead with the Marshall stack for example.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Jun 22, 2017 19:07:49 GMT -6
Was at a big show tonnight of a famoues EU / US artist at one of the best sounding open air areas here in Berlin. The live AE must be deaf it was loud as hell I bet it was more than 100 db SPL 50 meters away from the stage. In any postion it does not matters which one I try I had massive base waves moving into my body. The top end was full blown, it did hurt in the ears. I took out my ear plugs but many paying fans where pissed. Lucky me I found one OK spot. But why the hell they hire deaf AE for the FOH thing. The best show I ever heard was Pat Metheny Group in the 90s. It was so great mixed that you had the impression that you listen to the record. A live show that sounds like a record through a massive Hi-Fi system is the ideal IMO. Rarely occurs but is great when it does or is at least close.
|
|
|
Post by duke on Jun 22, 2017 19:15:53 GMT -6
A live show that sounds like a record through a massive Hi-Fi system is the ideal... And over in the audiophile world, a massive hi-fi system that can make a record sound like a live show is the ideal...
But seriously, I totally get what you're saying.
|
|
|
Post by stratboy on Jun 22, 2017 19:34:20 GMT -6
Best mixed show I've heard recently was Paul Simon. A large band, with complex sonics, balanced perfectly and at a level where I didn't have to put in the earplugs.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Jun 22, 2017 19:39:27 GMT -6
A live show that sounds like a record through a massive Hi-Fi system is the ideal... And over in the audiophile world, a massive hi-fi system that can make a record sound like a live show is the ideal...
But seriously, I totally get what you're saying.
Obviously you want the vibe of a live performance but with sound that doesn't suck Of course trying to emulate live what happened in the studio wouldn't work on stage in most cases. Unless some dude with Protools, a wave editor and a mouse is in the lineup!
|
|
|
Post by reddirt on Jun 22, 2017 22:00:07 GMT -6
Geez, it's not rocket surgery...........I have no idea how many FOH "engineers" get this ridiculous POV; it's like they are situated in a massive null. Get a massive wall shaking kick drum going and then try to add the rest on top of that - who hires these people?
Properly mixed performance at an acceptable level is a pleasure for the punters and is what they paid for.' I did a "folk/roots festival" show last weekend (don't do many live mixes - to protect my hearing) featuring a West Australian Blues 3 piece - upright slap bass, dobros, mandos, elec guits etc. called '10 Cent Shooters.' (Youtube them) Wiz and Rowmat may know them; - wonderful band, would have been somewhere around 85 db at the mixer (guessing) , so I moved up the front to check there - somewhere around 90 ish but IMHO well mixed and solid. The largely 45 - 75 year old audience were totally rapt for the hour, nobody left, many congratulated me including the band and then out of 175 punters they sold over 40 CDs. That's not trying to blow my own trumpet , that's how it's meant to go.
As to the guitarist being so loud it's like, "it only gives me the sound when the output valves are breaking up and anyway I like it like that" (Why you never give a guitar player final say on any mixes; a big generalisation but you get my drift) Another issue is that guitarists have their speakers at lower leg level so aren't hearing the level like those off stage. Try getting them to lean the amp back if possible.
it's not hard unless the PA sucks, the room sucks or the "talent" sucks; throw in a mixer that sucks and people stop going to live shows.
We as paying punters have a right to be pissed if it's shit, and as mixers, have an obligation to the band and punters to give them a great show.
I'm surprised there's not a lot of law suits against venues for causing hearimg loss
Cheers, Ross
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Jun 23, 2017 1:58:24 GMT -6
Often the older over 50's guys have worked it out. They'll bring a small combo that they can easily overdrive without blowing the roof off the venue. I'll suggest they use their amp as a monitor and point it at themselves rather than off stage. Stick a 57 on it and I have control over the FOH mix and not them. Beside the older guys are usually over lugging around a 100watt head and quad boxes and are past trying to impress 18 year old girls... well some are! Speaking of over the top kick drums, I've seen more than a few folk/roots festivals where the kick drum could shatter concrete at 500 yards. Crazy, inappropriate shite! Geez, it's not rocket surgery...........I have no idea how many FOH "engineers" get this ridiculous POV; it's like they are situated in a massive null. Get a massive wall shaking kick drum going and then try to add the rest on top of that - who hires these people? Properly mixed performance at an acceptable level is a pleasure for the punters and is what they paid for.' I did a "folk/roots festival" show last weekend (don't do many live mixes - to protect my hearing) featuring a West Australian Blues 3 piece - upright slap bass, dobros, mandos, elec guits etc. called '10 Cent Shooters.' (Youtube them) Wiz and Rowmat may know them; - wonderful band, would have been somewhere around 85 db at the mixer (guessing) , so I moved up the front to check there - somewhere around 90 ish but IMHO well mixed and solid. The largely 45 - 75 year old audience were totally rapt for the hour, nobody left, many congratulated me including the band and then out of 175 punters they sold over 40 CDs. That's not trying to blow my own trumpet , that's how it's meant to go. As to the guitarist being so loud it's like, "it only gives me the sound when the output valves are breaking up and anyway I like it like that" (Why you never give a guitar player final say on any mixes; a big generalisation but you get my drift) Another issue is that guitarists have their speakers at lower leg level so aren't hearing the level like those off stage. Try getting them to lean the amp back if possible. it's not hard unless the PA sucks, the room sucks or the "talent" sucks; throw in a mixer that sucks and people stop going to live shows. We as paying punters have a right to be pissed if it's shit, and as mixers, have an obligation to the band and punters to give them a great show. I'm surprised there's not a lot of law suits against venues for causing hearimg loss Cheers, Ross
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 23, 2017 4:59:35 GMT -6
Even the small combos can sometimes get too loud for my room.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 23, 2017 6:46:01 GMT -6
Small rooms pubs is another story you don't need a mixing system in this. But they bring it all the time and it gets too loud as well.
108 db on the mixing desk can damage hearing in the audience with ease each meter nearer to the stage is plus 6 db. I also doubt that ear plugs is enough to save your ears.
The question is why cant the band leave mixing to the guy they hired for it. If the musicians are partly deaf they should not make any decision on this.
But OK my world got corrected when a well known German FOH AE (I wont drop names) told me that large parts of a RS show is playback because the old guys are near deaf.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 23, 2017 7:06:46 GMT -6
Many times it's a balancing act. My house system isn't powerful enough to have the amps turned WAY down and not rely on some stage volume, but when the amps get too loud, the vocals start to get buried. There is a fine line that needs to be straddled for the show to come together properly.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 23, 2017 8:38:28 GMT -6
Many times it's a balancing act. My house system isn't powerful enough to have the amps turned WAY down and not rely on some stage volume, but when the amps get too loud, the vocals start to get buried. There is a fine line that needs to be straddled for the show to come together properly. At least the FOH AE should be able to check SPL C level in different spots during the show....may an assistant can walk around with the meter. It gets stupid and is one reason why I avoid live shows if possible. You cant stand 110 db SPL over a period of 2 hours its dangerous and stupid by the people which run the venue. At least they should hand out ear plugs for free.... or making a house rule no louder than ø 82 db SPL in all spots. They could do it if they run a second set of speakers more far away form the stage.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Jun 23, 2017 9:22:17 GMT -6
It gets stupid and is one reason why I avoid live shows if possible. +1 Don't forget, it's got to compete with the ø 82+ db SPL conversations right next to you. Of course, people naturally get louder as the ambient sound gets louder, so the threshold there eventually becomes "SHOUTING." Add whatever it takes to cover that and you have the minimum FOH volume, which is often too loud for me. And don't get me started on people who sing along..
|
|
|
Post by jdc on Jun 23, 2017 9:25:40 GMT -6
It gets stupid and is one reason why I avoid live shows if possible. +1 Don't forget, it's got to compete with the ø 82+ db SPL conversations right next to you. Of course, people naturally get louder as the ambient sound gets louder, so the threshold there eventually becomes "SHOUTING." Add whatever it takes to cover that and you have the minimum FOH volume, which is often too loud for me. And don't get me started on people who sing along.. maybe bands wouldn't play so loud if audiences were more attentive?
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Jun 23, 2017 9:42:08 GMT -6
Given the number of times I've seen all the mic preamp clip lights fire I would say besides being deaf, a good number of those folks are also blind.
Another peave is the guy in the smaller club that wants to "mix you like a record". That is total BS. "Turn your amp down to 2 and I'll mix it perfectly" sort of crappola. In that small venue all you need is the vocals and some drums in the PA. To fix that I would play along and into the first song I would kick the SM57 (hate those things on amps) over and create the perfect mix by using my amp to fill that newly created void. No, it wasn't a 100 watt Marshall, it was a Deluxe Reverb.
One guy that got it was the guy that ran the sound at the famous old Palomino Club in NoHo CA. He knew we had it together and would mix the vocals and drums and leave the rest out. Then he would spend the rest of the evening sitting at the bar drinking as we mixed ourselves perfectly.
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Jun 23, 2017 11:49:14 GMT -6
Given the number of times I've seen all the mic preamp clip lights fire I would say besides being deaf, a good number of those folks are also blind. Another peave is the guy in the smaller club that wants to "mix you like a record". That is total BS. "Turn your amp down to 2 and I'll mix it perfectly" sort of crappola. In that small venue all you need is the vocals and some drums in the PA. To fix that I would play along and into the first song I would kick the SM57 (hate those things on amps) over and create the perfect mix by using my amp to fill that newly created void. No, it wasn't a 100 watt Marshall, it was a Deluxe Reverb. One guy that got it was the guy that ran the sound at the famous old Palomino Club in NoHo CA. He knew we had it together and would mix the vocals and drums and leave the rest out. Then he would spend the rest of the evening sitting at the bar drinking as we mixed ourselves perfectly. Seriously. It's sound reinforcement, not a showcase for your special AE talents.
|
|