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Post by M57 on May 27, 2017 8:32:16 GMT -6
I was thinking of starting a thread about panning in general, but I thought I'd start with a more specific aspect of the subject.
With a typical 'band' recording (drums, bass, guitar(s), lead vocal + sweeteners) what do you pan dead center? What techniques/approaches do you consider? If you record an instrument like a piano in stereo, do you let it favor a side? For the longest time, I was under the impression that the lead vocal is the only thing that should be center and that putting other stuff there will just step on it. On the other hand, I've heard some insist that the bass and kick should always be dead center - with the idea that you should let the frequency ranges of the instruments define how they carve out their space in the mix.
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Post by c0rtland on May 27, 2017 9:28:43 GMT -6
I'm a sucker for hard panned drums. Hard left or hard right. Whenever it fits the production. I just love it. Go for the bass too. Why not.
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Post by mdmitch2 on May 27, 2017 10:01:49 GMT -6
For me Kick, Snare, Vocal, Bass, lead/solo and sometimes mono reverb/delay all go in the center. Like you said it's then a game of balancing frequencies to get them to fit. Same for me, and pretty typical of most productions I think, with snare being the most likely to be panned slightly off center. Kick/Bass/Snare aren't going to fight the vocal too much.... Keeping those in the middle will make it easier to have a balanced mix IMO. For a busier mix, I rarely end up using tracks recorded in stereo, and if I do, they stay on one side or the other. If you record a bunch of instruments in stereo, and then hard pan left and right, it's going to sound like a mono mix... "big mono" is the term I believe. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 27, 2017 10:06:27 GMT -6
Pan a band like you in it playing or listening to it at a concert 😀
It's called drummer perspective or audience perspective from what I have been taught.
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Post by M57 on May 27, 2017 11:03:25 GMT -6
Pan a band like you in it playing or listening to it at a concert 😀 It's called drummer perspective or audience perspective from what I have been taught. So are you saying that other than maybe the kick and the lead vocal, pan everything? I mean, they can't all be standing on top of each other.. |
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Post by EmRR on May 27, 2017 12:10:35 GMT -6
someone soon is bound to say you should only use L/C/R, and nothing in between. I say do what you like. Check mono compatibility. And headphones. Make informed choices.
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Post by M57 on May 27, 2017 12:19:28 GMT -6
someone soon is bound to say you should only use L/C/R, and nothing in between. I say do what you like. Check mono compatibility. And headphones. Make informed choices. Yeah - to be clear - I swear I wasn't trolling when I started the thread. I'm simply interested in understanding the gamut of options. I think it might be cool if some folks could post examples - either of thier own work and/or some more well-known or well-regarded representational recordings. That way we have reference points if we want to talk about the pros and cons of a given approach or methodology. |
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Post by swurveman on May 27, 2017 12:32:52 GMT -6
I typically pan kick/snare/bass/vocal in the center. Sometimes if there's a guitar riff that's the main rhythmic element of the mix. If a piano has been stereo miced I put the low end mic left and the high end right, but often will pan the stereo track somewhere else in the stereo field, particularly if it's not the main rhythmic instrument. The hardest thing for me to do is when I record bands with two guitar players who aren't playing anything interesting, or complementary, so that panning them makes it sound even worse. I typically will keep them both up the middle so as not to highlight how poorly arranged,married the parts are.
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Post by jazznoise on May 27, 2017 12:50:44 GMT -6
someone soon is bound to say you should only use L/C/R, and nothing in between. I say do what you like. Check mono compatibility. And headphones. Make informed choices. This. You can say all the "musts" you like. Is panning snare dead center when you have 2 kit drummers? Maybe not! For the general band setup - Kick and snare. Vocal mostly, but I might pan double tracked vocals and stereo room mics might also add to that. I might have the lead dry and a room mic'd DT coming off just the right, BV's on the left. I might pan bass if there's only 1 guitar, or we might DT the guitar and center the bass. Depends on its musical role. If there was synth and electric/acoustic bass, I'd consider panning again. Too many options. The further I go, the less into 'pure' symmetrical panning I am. I feel like engineers get nervous about having lopsided stereo images seeming like technical errors, but actually it's harder to pull off unbalanced stereo images than 'safely' keep everything the same on both sides. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on May 27, 2017 14:33:56 GMT -6
I'm on the side of do whatever you want to make the song standout. It can be very genre specific.
I've always admired Tchad Blake's ability to have things all over the place, and at the same time sound super cool and cohesive.
The self titled Sheryl Crow album is a standout for this sort of thing.
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 27, 2017 15:05:21 GMT -6
someone soon is bound to say you should only use L/C/R, and nothing in between. I say do what you like. Check mono compatibility. And headphones. Make informed choices. Yeah - to be clear - I swear I wasn't trolling when I started the thread.  I'm simply interested in understanding the gamut of options.  I think it might be cool if some folks could post examples - either of thier own work and/or some more well-known or well-regarded representational recordings.  That way we have reference points if we want to talk about the pros and cons of a given approach or methodology. Haha 😂 good laugh thanks brother! Yes I pan crash, open hat, hi hat, toms, shaker, keys, synths, organs, stick hits ( not drastic) let's see umm delays and verbs hard panned unless mono specific delay or verb ( sometimes Vox plate or slap dly) .... As far as a record go listen to Wiz phenomenal " Lay Down With Me " on my SoundCloud, or drum panning there is a beat called Really Flexxin in my dig with the drum panning I speak of |
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Post by lcr on May 27, 2017 17:23:43 GMT -6
someone soon is bound to say you should only use L/C/R, and nothing in between. I say do what you like. Check mono compatibility. And headphones. Make informed choices. Never only use LCR. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 27, 2017 19:14:05 GMT -6
someone soon is bound to say you should only use L/C/R, and nothing in between. I say do what you like. Check mono compatibility. And headphones. Make informed choices. Never only use LCR. You don't like to be used? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 27, 2017 22:34:49 GMT -6
I'm generally K, Sn, Bass, Vox in the center. Some lead/solo stuff may move center for the spot.
Here's one of my favorite, non-standard panned mixes.
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Post by M57 on May 28, 2017 4:53:15 GMT -6
After reading this thread so far, I'm sensing that "whatever works" is the philosophical answer - the possibilities are as numerous as there are musical genres - but of course technically speaking, experience suggests that there are tried and true approaches that narrow options.
I'm finishing up on a song right now where the drummer played remotely and sent the raw tracks to me. I decided to use the over-hat and over-crash stereo pair to dictate where things sit. They were recorded from the drummer's perspective, which I prefer (just as I prefer the pianists perspective with stereo images). As I started panning the individual racks where I heard them in the stereo image, I found that it was too wide, especially the low tom. My options were to narrow the pair OR keep the pair wide and 'force' the individual tom track more toward the center than where I heard it in the stereo image. I think the latter worked nicely - the image stayed wide, but the components don't seem too spread out. Here's the track..
https%3A//soundcloud.com/m57/touchdown-into-grey
It seems I'm increasingly hesitant to post my music here because I know there will be a number of pros that will inevitably cringe at some of its inadequacies on the production side of things. It's kind of ironic, because I think my mixes are getting better. Go figure. Certainly any and all crits and suggestions are welcome.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2017 4:57:09 GMT -6
No crits or suggestions - just in awe.
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Post by lcr on May 28, 2017 7:19:22 GMT -6
You don't like to be used? Lol, maybe Im a fake. I always(always?) pan toms and hats to the baked in stereo image of the overheads/rooms. Also I spread out stacked horns, strings and usually vocal harmonies across the stereo field. Everything else is LCR. No pass or fail as already mentioned, this is how I pan. |
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Post by donr on May 29, 2017 21:45:10 GMT -6
After reading this thread so far, I'm sensing that "whatever works" is the philosophical answer - the possibilities are as numerous as there are musical genres - but of course technically speaking, experience suggests that there are tried and true approaches that narrow options. I'm finishing up on a song right now where the drummer played remotely and sent the raw tracks to me. I decided to use the over-hat and over-crash stereo pair to dictate where things sit. They were recorded from the drummer's perspective, which I prefer (just as I prefer the pianists perspective with stereo images). As I started panning the individual racks where I heard them in the stereo image, I found that it was too wide, especially the low tom. My options were to narrow the pair OR keep the pair wide and 'force' the individual tom track more toward the center than where I heard it in the stereo image. I think the latter worked nicely - the image stayed wide, but the components don't seem too spread out. Here's the track.. https%3A//soundcloud.com/m57/touchdown-into-greyIt seems I'm increasingly hesitant to post my music here because I know there will be a number of pros that will inevitably cringe at some of its inadequacies on the production side of things. It's kind of ironic, because I think my mixes are getting better. Go figure. Certainly any and all crits and suggestions are welcome. Mark, maybe your recording production isn't 100% as slick as a top flight commercial studio. But your music, including your song writing, performance and production style, demonstrates a sincerity, competence, sophistication and ambition that's absent from most commerical music I hear. You should be justifiably proud of what you're doing, it's really good. That song is pretty stunning. |
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Post by levon on May 29, 2017 23:12:32 GMT -6
If I have doubled vocals, I often pan them slightly left/right (about 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, or thereabouts). That leaves more space for bass and snare. I also often move stuff slightly off-center to give it more depth, i.e. lead vocals and rhythm guitar. Vocals stay center, guitar slightly left or right. The guitar still sounds center, but you hear it better. Kick, snare, bass, lead vox always dead center. But, as a rule, if there are too many things in the center, I separate them slightly. Solos could well be panned hard left or right.
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Post by levon on May 29, 2017 23:19:32 GMT -6
After reading this thread so far, I'm sensing that "whatever works" is the philosophical answer - the possibilities are as numerous as there are musical genres - but of course technically speaking, experience suggests that there are tried and true approaches that narrow options. I'm finishing up on a song right now where the drummer played remotely and sent the raw tracks to me. I decided to use the over-hat and over-crash stereo pair to dictate where things sit. They were recorded from the drummer's perspective, which I prefer (just as I prefer the pianists perspective with stereo images). As I started panning the individual racks where I heard them in the stereo image, I found that it was too wide, especially the low tom. My options were to narrow the pair OR keep the pair wide and 'force' the individual tom track more toward the center than where I heard it in the stereo image. I think the latter worked nicely - the image stayed wide, but the components don't seem too spread out. Here's the track.. https%3A//soundcloud.com/m57/touchdown-into-greyIt seems I'm increasingly hesitant to post my music here because I know there will be a number of pros that will inevitably cringe at some of its inadequacies on the production side of things. It's kind of ironic, because I think my mixes are getting better. Go figure. Certainly any and all crits and suggestions are welcome. Mark, maybe your recording production isn't 100% as slick as a top flight commercial studio. But your music, including your song writing, performance and production style, demonstrates a sincerity, competence, sophistication and ambition that's absent from most commerical music I hear. You should be justifiably proud of what you're doing, it's really good. That song is pretty stunning. I agree with Don, beautiful song. It sounds beautifully organic, not fake and plastic and more timeless than most pop productions. Wait, I take the 'beautiful' back, that song IS stunning! And, as a lyricist, I must congratulate you on the nice lyrics, well done. |
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Post by stratboy on May 30, 2017 4:28:22 GMT -6
 Here's the track..
https%3A//soundcloud.com/m57/touchdown-into-grey
It seems I'm increasingly hesitant to post my music here because I know there will be a number of pros that will inevitably cringe at some of its inadequacies on the production side of things. Â It's kind of ironic, because I think my mixes are getting better. Â Go figure. Â Certainly any and all crits and suggestions are welcome.[/quote]
I read a quote somewhere from Lowell George , I think, where he said (paraphrasing) about learning to play guitar, "for the first couple of years, I thought I was great. Then for a long time, I thought I sucked. Now, I just play." RGO is a really supportive place. You are waay past Lowell's middle stage, as a writer, player, producer and engineer. Please keep posting your beautiful music here.
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Post by M57 on May 30, 2017 11:46:44 GMT -6
Wow guys.. What a way to hijack a thread - Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining.  There was a time when I hoped that I could write songs and maybe get some kind of recognition, but I was way too picky/snobby about what I thought I wanted and I really didn't have the skills or equipment to execute whatever my non-vision was anyway, so I put things on simmer. As I got older and lost touch with whatever the current waves were other than hearing stuff on the radio, I gave up on the recognition part ..and all but gave up on song writing for 25 years or so. I was writing music for children and choirs here and there, but that rarely if ever gave me the opportunity to really say something with my true voice. More recently, as technology enabled me to "do it all myself," and as we all have witnessed the the near death of the professional songwriter, for many of us writing songs has simply become a necessary cathartic release mechanism for life. I may be confident as a song writer, but gaining confidence as the "engineer/producer" of my music has been a process. The friends I've made, and technical knowledge and learning that I've received from this site has been priceless. Of course, RG pretty much informs all of my studio purchases. Ouch!  On the creative end, between this, a few errant clicks on SoundCloud and a songwriting site or two, there are only a handful of people who listen to the songs I've written, so I can't tell you how truly grateful I am for your support and kind words. That said, I know this is not a song-writer's site, and though I may be desperately eager to share (and learn in the process), I want to be respectful of the function/mission of the site. Luckily (and not-so-luckily) I am anything but prolific. There is the "What Are You Working On" forum.. I'd love to start a thread there with a work in progess and have folks critique/suggest/help me along the way. Hopefully, the muse will be with me this summer. |
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Post by adamjbrass on May 30, 2017 12:41:54 GMT -6
Sometimes I use only one microphone and then the entire band sounds like an actual band....just saying...
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Post by jazznoise on May 31, 2017 3:42:44 GMT -6
That said, I know this is not a song-writer's site, and though I may be desperately eager to share (and learn in the process), I want to be respectful of the function/mission of the site. I wouldn't feel that way if I were you. A good majority of us here write or perform music in some capacity. Don't be shy of posting your own material. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 31, 2017 12:48:51 GMT -6
That why I include my music and new mixes in my signature... you guys are one click away from seeing if I am full of dog shit or not ðŸ¤
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There was a time when I hoped that I could write songs and maybe get some kind of recognition, but I was way too picky/snobby about what I thought I wanted and I really didn't have the skills or equipment to execute whatever my non-vision was anyway, so I put things on simmer. As I got older and lost touch with whatever the current waves were other than hearing stuff on the radio, I gave up on the recognition part ..and all but gave up on song writing for 25 years or so. I was writing music for children and choirs here and there, but that rarely if ever gave me the opportunity to really say something with my true voice. More recently, as technology enabled me to "do it all myself," and as we all have witnessed the the near death of the professional songwriter, for many of us writing songs has simply become a necessary cathartic release mechanism for life.
On the creative end, between this, a few errant clicks on SoundCloud and a songwriting site or two, there are only a handful of people who listen to the songs I've written, so I can't tell you how truly grateful I am for your support and kind words. 