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Post by Johnkenn on May 26, 2017 9:04:22 GMT -6
I'm actually starting to prefer some of my cheap ass epiphones. They have character. Starting to really get into that boxy, beat up guitar sound. Sometimes the pristine martins can sound too polished. Anybody else feeling this way?
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Post by svart on May 26, 2017 9:28:15 GMT -6
Yes!
A few years ago my cousin and I went to every music shop in the whole area looking for some kind of used middle-tier acoustic for the studio. I absolutely expected to pick up a used Taylor/Martin or something like that. However, we also tried a lot of new guitars (both cheap and expensive) and found that the variability was so high between instruments, that it became a realistic possibility to find a cheaper new guitar with similar voicing to something much higher end.
In the end I had a choice between a nice used Alvarez or a new high-tier Mitchell for roughly the same price. The Mitchell won the shootout and folks who've used it can't believe I paid so little for it (about 200$ after clearance markdowns) because it easily beats 1-2K guitars in the studio.
So when it comes to acoustics, the variability is so incredibly high, that the *only* way to buy one is to take someone with you and have them play every single guitar up to your maximum spending allowance while you stand back and listen. You will absolutely find some gems in the rough, and you'll also be sometimes disappointed by the big boys as well.
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Post by drbill on May 26, 2017 10:00:02 GMT -6
The guy who does the bulk of my guitar work - Jimmy Lum - in LA, has close to a hundred guitars. Some dug out of trash cans and then had $400 put into making them playable, some from swap meets that are almost unplayable - and he likes to keep em like that, to others he dug out of the reject back bins of Guitar Center. Some have only 3 or 4 strings on them, some have huge holes in them. He's gotten them from all around the country. About 50% of them are acoustics. And he keeps and plays them for the specific reason you mentioned - character. They may not be the #1 guitar he picks up to play, but when that character is needed, having those guitars available is money in the bank for him. He calls em money guitars - and most sound like rural america. Or other ethnic styles - like for instance south african juju or classic REAL surf guitars. You can't get that sound from your classic martin. That said, he's also got the priceless martins, and such, but will always be fond of the rejects.  |
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 26, 2017 10:11:54 GMT -6
Ryan Adams uses some cheap ass guitars that are probably well set up. It does have a vibe, for sure. My perspective is somewhat unique, since I've been teaching guitar to beginners and intermediate players for over 25 years, I may have in fact seen them all ;-)
My best recommendation for something great that's cheap, is to try playing as many of the Epiphone versions of the Gibson J-200 as you can, and pick the better one. When they're good, they're really good.
2nd recommendation, look at the Gretsch Rancher single-cutaway. They have a little Django Reinhardt style sound hole and sound beautifully crappy. I'm sorry I sold mine. It was by far, the best guitar I ever used for slide guitar, it had just the right amount of nasty, and records incredibly well. It's between $250 and $500.
Last recommendation, but an expensive one, find a CEO7 Martin acoustic used. It's the best small Gibson ever made, just trounces the Gibson's, and has the most beautiful old time vibe you can imagine, but not from flaws, from being just perfect.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 26, 2017 10:14:32 GMT -6
There are always diamonds in the rough out there, and low price instruments don't mean they all suck just most suck.
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Post by notneeson on May 26, 2017 11:41:04 GMT -6
I have this beater old archtop acoustic— likely a Harmony, but the headstock has been sanded down and there's no identifying marks. When it's right, it absolutely kills. Not saying I play like Dave Rawlings, but it's in the ball park of his signature instrument.
I also have a Gibson LG-0 on loan here, student model when new, and it sounds pretty cool on the right track.
Either one can beat out my D-28 depending on what's needed.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 12:27:38 GMT -6
Hey John could you put some clips up ... ( I know!).. but you always have quality recordings and it would be good to hear a well recorded cheaper acoustic just to see if a good recording is as important as a good instrument?
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Post by drbill on May 26, 2017 14:04:40 GMT -6
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Post by jeremygillespie on May 26, 2017 14:04:47 GMT -6
I've been on the hunt for a Gibson Banner LG1 or LG2 for a few years. I should have picked one up when I fell in love with one a session player had about 7 years ago. They were still reasonable.
Hard to find one now that is in decent condition and hasn't been molested too bad.
IMO, the guitars from the 40's - 60's that were cheap student models are WAY better guitars than any cheap offering by any of the big brands these days. They just have that really dry, wood, almost boxy sound to them that can sit really quite nicely in a track depending on how dense it is.
Last time I was at a GC I picked up a few Martins that were about $1,000 - I had a friend that wanted to spend about that much on an acoustic and was interested in a Martin after hearing my 000-18 Golden Era. I was honestly shocked to hear what they sounded like... complete trash. They all had laminate necks, the setup was terrible on all of them, just completely uninspiring to play.
Martin, that CEO7 is indeed a beauty. I have a buddy with a very nice example. I've also been on the hunt for a small body 12 fret Gibson. Also WAY out of my price range, but I'm still hopeful that I'll come across one at some point.
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Post by notneeson on May 26, 2017 15:04:19 GMT -6
Pawn shop D28 knockoff on track 9: store.cdbaby.com/cd/kirkcharlesheydt4I can't remember the name, it was something vaguely close, like Marvin etc. Kirk excels at getting bargain basement guitars rehabilitated. |
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Post by mrholmes on May 26, 2017 15:30:07 GMT -6
I'm actually starting to prefer some of my cheap ass epiphones. They have character. Starting to really get into that boxy, beat up guitar sound. Sometimes the pristine martins can sound too polished. Anybody else feeling this way? I had a lot of guitars in my hands over the past 20 years as player and instructor. And I sold to students many guitars - if they asked for advise. All I can say from here to here some cheap brands pop out and you better buy one. To me its the exception not the rule. If I am at my Luthiers shop and I grab a Martin Dreadnought or OMC I know what I can expect. And its one of 100 Martins which can suck... Gibsons at least in Europe suck very often, overrated and expensive as hell. This and the last year we sold great sounding Dukes around 600 Euro. Its china made by the German Luthier Hannika... with luck you get one which sounds more like 2000 Euro. There where Johnsons Guitars sometimes the laminated ones sounded so good that I could not believe it. I don't know if they still exist. My old Endorser Walden brand from the USA / China some of them are good... too bad they closed. The Sigmas brand now bought by a german companies can sound very good. Some of them don't sound as precise as the real Martins but they have an open sound and are worth 300 -400 Euro you should calculate 150 for a one time fret job. Alvarez guitars has an unbelievable good bang for the bucks. I still believe in Martins or great copies of Martins such as my Morgan from Vancouver. In the end no one is your boss if you like that sound ... good. I just say you can do a lot with a fresh fret job and new bone saddle and bridge. Try John Pearse Strings and be happy... PS: On the other hand a great player is still great with cheap guitars... I still practice every day ..... |
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 26, 2017 16:12:41 GMT -6
mrholmes, that link to Chris Stapleton's track was awesome. The Martin CEO7 is like that, only better in every way. My buddy has one. I'll try to borrow it when I tracking next time, so I can post it here.
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Post by drbill on May 26, 2017 16:30:28 GMT -6
I think - I THINK - the thread is skewing off kilter...... There are certainly cheap guitars that sound great for little money. But that's not where I was headed. I THINK @johnkenn was talking about cheap guitars that sound CHEAP. Or bad. Or old. Or like they need a string change. Or ones have intonation problems. i.e. : CHARACTER All the flaws that give acoustics a somewhat vintage, back porch charming character that can fit a song like no "good" guitar can fit. That's what I was talking about. Not cheap guitars that sound great. Old guitars that sound great in a bad way.
For TV / Film, I'm all over this. Constantly. It brings an authenticity that you can't get with a good Martin, Gibson or copy guitar that's new. People ask me why I have so many guitars and I can barely even play one (keyboard player here)...... That's why.
The Chris Stapleton clip I posted.....If I cut that guitar track without him singing, I'd be embarrassed to even play it back. But in context......very convincing. Bad is good.
Same thing goes for electrics. Danelectro's come to mind.....
Same thing with recordings. If you want a vintage sound, and produce it like a "good, modern" recording, you can never achieve that vintage almost unattainable "sound".
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Post by Johnkenn on May 26, 2017 17:43:27 GMT -6
Ryan Adams uses some cheap ass guitars that are probably well set up. This is the key |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 26, 2017 17:44:27 GMT -6
Hey John could you put some clips up ... ( I know!).. but you always have quality recordings and it would be good to hear a well recorded cheaper acoustic just to see if a good recording is as important as a good instrument? Yeah, let me see what I can get up... |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 26, 2017 17:45:22 GMT -6
I think - I THINK - the thread is skewing off kilter...... There are certainly cheap guitars that sound great for little money. But that's not where I was headed. I THINK @johnkenn was talking about cheap guitars that sound CHEAP. Or bad. Or old. Or like they need a string change. Or ones have intonation problems. i.e. : CHARACTER All the flaws that give acoustics a somewhat vintage, back porch charming character that can fit a song like no "good" guitar can fit. That's what I was talking about. Not cheap guitars that sound great. Old guitars that sound great in a bad way. For TV / Film, I'm all over this. Constantly. It brings an authenticity that you can't get with a good Martin, Gibson or copy guitar that's new. People ask me why I have so many guitars and I can barely even play one (keyboard player here)...... That's why. The Chris Stapleton clip I posted.....If I cut that guitar track without him singing, I'd be embarrassed to even play it back. But in context......very convincing. Bad is good. Same thing goes for electrics. Danelectro's come to mind..... Same thing with recordings. If you want a vintage sound, and produce it like a "good, modern" recording, you can never achieve that vintage almost unattainable "sound". Yep...that's what I was talking about. Clunky bottom end, midrangey...character. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 26, 2017 17:47:43 GMT -6
Yep...that looks like an expensive newish LG. Actually could have even been a little funkier if you ask me. But that's what I was talking about. Dead strings, etc. |
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Post by wiz on May 26, 2017 18:20:32 GMT -6
I use a taylor mahogany mini, that I bought cheap... its been on nearly everything I have released as the main acoustic guitar (including an acoustic guitar EP) over the last few years...and I walk passed a D28 and Maton Messiah to pick it up each time... 8) both those guitars are worth at least 5-6 times what I paid for the taylor.
Every person who has picked up the Taylor, falls in love with it.
We bought Jo one.... her's doesn't play anywhere near as well as mine, even after a trip to a good luthier.
Each one is different, in my mind...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Guitar on May 26, 2017 20:06:08 GMT -6
I had so many cheap guitars at one point, I had to sell 3 or 4 of them to thin the herd.
In a rare stroke of luck, Guitar Center would not buy my repaired Epiphone Hummingbird with the cracked off headstock glued back on, because it was so ugly to look at. In my benefit, I didn't really need the hundred bucks, and that guitar sounds pretty damn good. I have become quite the Epiphone fan, these days. I have a good P93 electric also.
I also have some full and child sized nylon string guitars I really like. The one that didn't stand up got sold.
And a Yamaha cheapo, the Yamahas are sort of a stand-out cheap guitar. Generally being very playable. This guitar has been in the family since before I was born.
And a little Oscar Schmidt Washburn that I use sometimes even though it sounds so peaky. I put a Dimarzio humbucker in it with pennies glued over the high string pole pieces to balance the sound out of the DI. My mother commented how bad that guitar sounds, but it's something, like dr. bill said, that I want to go to sometimes. It does have a character.
Maybe the best one of all is a Vietnamese guitar called a Viet Hong with bizarre red fret markers, a painted fretboard, strat headtock, airbrushed "pickguard," and the most cheesy sunburst I have ever seen. People keep trying to buy that thing off me but I refuse to sell it. My mom brought it home from a thrift store one day. I put new tuners on and a lipstick pickup. This is my "cigar box" guitar out of anything I have. It just sings the blues. It's really a wall queen but it's so fun to play one when the mood strikes.
I do like my Taylor, and I dream of an HD-28 Martin. But the better cheap acoustics will always remind me of home. They are imperfect just like me.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 26, 2017 20:39:31 GMT -6
I think - I THINK - the thread is skewing off kilter...... There are certainly cheap guitars that sound great for little money. But that's not where I was headed. I THINK @johnkenn was talking about cheap guitars that sound CHEAP. Or bad. Or old. Or like they need a string change. Or ones have intonation problems. i.e. : CHARACTER All the flaws that give acoustics a somewhat vintage, back porch charming character that can fit a song like no "good" guitar can fit. That's what I was talking about. Not cheap guitars that sound great. Old guitars that sound great in a bad way. For TV / Film, I'm all over this. Constantly. It brings an authenticity that you can't get with a good Martin, Gibson or copy guitar that's new. People ask me why I have so many guitars and I can barely even play one (keyboard player here)...... That's why. The Chris Stapleton clip I posted.....If I cut that guitar track without him singing, I'd be embarrassed to even play it back. But in context......very convincing. Bad is good. Same thing goes for electrics. Danelectro's come to mind..... Same thing with recordings. If you want a vintage sound, and produce it like a "good, modern" recording, you can never achieve that vintage almost unattainable "sound". Yep...that's what I was talking about. Clunky bottom end, midrangey...character. There is a Sylvia Massey Article in the Mix archives about Prince and her cheap Fender acustic. |
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Post by c0rtland on May 26, 2017 23:14:00 GMT -6
I'm actually starting to prefer some of my cheap ass epiphones. They have character. Starting to really get into that boxy, beat up guitar sound. Sometimes the pristine martins can sound too polished. Anybody else feeling this way? Hello! Hell yeah! It's the sound of life quite often. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on May 27, 2017 10:31:29 GMT -6
I have a cheap Alvarez parlor, AP70. I bought it because it's so comfortable to play compared to the D18.... it doesn't sound particularly good, and it's basically all midrange, but it can be a really useful sound sometimes.
I love a lot of the Jethro Tull acoustic guitar sounds, which were mostly a parlor or smaller, often in sparse arrangements where most would have gone for a fuller sounding instrument.
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Post by jayson on May 27, 2017 10:57:10 GMT -6
I've got a Regal resonator that I picked up in the 90's for like $250 that's sorta like that. At first it required a little creative engineering to even make it playable - but man, that has been one one surprisingly useful instrument. It's got this really nasal tone that seems to sound BETTER as the strings age on it so I almost never change them.
To be honest if I play it by itself I'm not real crazy about it, but it pops out in the nicest way when you mix it with other acoustic instruments.
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Post by mrholmes on May 27, 2017 17:08:36 GMT -6
Ryan Adams uses some cheap ass guitars that are probably well set up. This is the key You can do the same with electrics if you find a brand where the basic woods and work is good. I play a 130 Euro Telecaster I gave it my Luthier: Fret Job inclusive fret gluing. Bone saddle. Fresh Pure Nickel Strings. Pepsi Test was a friend who is crazy about all Fender Guitars. Before he saw the guitar I did put him on a sleep mask so he just can feel and hear it. He had some great words for this china Tele with vintage stile baseball neck. He was shocked when I told him that it is a 130 Euro Telecaster by Thoman. He took off the sleep mask and could not believe it - for weeks. The thing is if you buy a Squir classic player for example you still have to do the fret job and setup. I don't know why the save money in making the neck and setup right... but they call more than double the price of that cheap china Vintage copy. If you watch out for those deals you can save some cash and still have your fun. I also use cheap fender base copies no one yet was able to hear that its not a fender base. As soon you tell them what it is, they claim that it sounds bad and we should re track it with a real good base blah blah blah... As long I use it for the Studio I don't see myself buying US electric guitars anymore they got way too expensive. I am not willed to swing it and they just go up 10% per year. The biggest joke is that custom shop thing. A student owns CS guitars by Gibson and Fender very very expensive guitars and they are not a single thing better than any other Gibson or Fender. 6000 Euros for a ugly red Les Paul... sounds like SHIT when I plug it in, did not told the student...but you can not hear that this guitar is 6k. To me its no longer about making music. Those big brands make a big marketing show. To me as someone who was/is into guitar playing because of the sound of my heroes this is ridicules. If I see lawyers stepping into the shop buying an SRV Fender Signature Guitar for 2500 Euros and I ask .. do you play. And they reply - no I hang it in my office -.... am I wrong or is something wrong with the times I live in... Sometimes I give them cards for my lessons...LOL |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 27, 2017 17:27:07 GMT -6
Yeah a lot of cheap guitars get a bad name because if they are set up at all its by the new "dude" at the banjo depot or equivalent, a Squire setup by somebody who knows what they are doing ain't bad!
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