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Post by viciousbliss on May 22, 2017 19:13:44 GMT -6
I was not completely satisfied with some dynamics and messing with plugs and clip gain wasn't doing the trick so I thought to try fader riding again. For Xmas I got the Faderport 8 and that HUI in Pro Tools is so slow and clunky that I found it unusable for live fader rides. Previously I was using Waverider, but not always satisfied there either. Breaking it out again, I'm finding it works real well combined with my new skills acquired while I was working without any fader rides. If I were to draw in fader rides, I'd feel a bit puzzled as to how to go about it. Waverider seems to move at light speed, faster than a human could react. The Faderport is like half human speed and half precise. Now I'm finding that the WR fader rides give me a much more appropriate level of fx and balance in the dynamics. Mix overall balances better too. But I also know it's possible to do an adequate mix without fader rides. The thought of someone messing with faders on a real console has me baffled since it seems like such a tedious process compared to having 32 Waverider instances running at a time..
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Post by drbill on May 22, 2017 20:35:06 GMT -6
Cool.
I can't possibly imagine a mix without fader rides. Flipping to volume views in one of my mixes might scare some people.....
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Post by massivemastering on May 22, 2017 22:13:10 GMT -6
90% fader riding -- 10% compression of the source. The two are not the same...
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Post by drbill on May 22, 2017 22:19:32 GMT -6
I'll happily slam the living daylights out of something with compression/limiting, but then ride faders all around to get some life back into it. ALL around. It's a VERY rare day when a track stays static for any length of time. Sometimes a drum loop, but usually they get pushed around too.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 22:59:04 GMT -6
Back in the day I used a lot of compression to sound powerful... How wrong I was.
My mixes are now 90% EQ, fader ride, bus routing and parallel processing and 10% group compression (side chained) only for tone and colour.
Agree with DRBILL, my sessions tend to scare people...me Included haha
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Post by johneppstein on May 23, 2017 0:47:48 GMT -6
Fader riding IS mixing.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on May 23, 2017 7:14:18 GMT -6
Have you checked your FP8 settings, as I believe you can affect the speed of its response.
I am using Logic and Studio one and don't notice clunkiness, in fact, the opposite, it shows changes of less than .01%.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 7:18:02 GMT -6
I'm very surprised about how many "young engineers" (I'm in my late 30's so I'm still young, am i?) feel lazy about fader riding because 1, 2 or 3dB doesn't really make a difference. I'll add to the post about fader riding: I always ride the fader down. I rarely ride the fader up if I want an instrument to be pushed
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Post by swurveman on May 23, 2017 7:32:42 GMT -6
I always volume automate with my mouse.
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Post by M57 on May 23, 2017 7:48:30 GMT -6
I always volume automate with my mouse. I have to admit that with very few exceptions I prefer drawing with my mouse over actually having the DAW read fader moves on my controller. Also, and partly for sake of efficiency, I find that I use very few 'points' so I end up with a lot of linear fader moves. The advantage of this is that I can surgically align levels between words, phrases, spaces, etc.
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Post by rocinante on May 23, 2017 8:08:43 GMT -6
I fader ride every song. Somewhere. I often have to automate a few track somewhere but there is something about 'that place right there' that feels better when I am in the moment adjusting. I often do this on my console even though I usually level all the faders on the console and use my daw controller for fader adjustments. In he end after the main automation I too prefer drawing with a mouse. There's something about the daw not reading the controller right that has never worked for me, and I always end up needing to adjust the finer points.
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Post by svart on May 23, 2017 11:15:30 GMT -6
I automate stuff that doesn't stand on it's own. Sometimes a guitarist plays a section a little too laid back, a few drum hits are anemic, singer didn't quite hit a matching level on a take, etc..
But for the most part, I find that the better the arrangement, the less the need to create fake dynamics in the composition as a whole. If you have to move faders a lot to get things to pop out, then there is too much going on during that time.
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Post by drbill on May 23, 2017 11:30:44 GMT -6
The modern phenomenon of musicians not playing together at the same time, or in the same room, or even in the same state accentuates dynamic problems and necessitates more dynamic moves than might be needed in an old school environment. Nature of the beast when no one sees one another when playing.
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Post by M57 on May 23, 2017 11:43:51 GMT -6
The modern phenomenon of musicians not playing together at the same time, or in the same room, or even in the same state accentuates dynamic problems and necessitates more dynamic moves than might be needed in an old school environment. Nature of the beast when no one sees one another when playing. This concept is obvious where the interaction of feel/tempo is concerned, but I've never really thought much of the significance of its importance in terms of dynamics. Very good point, drbill!
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Post by rocinante on May 23, 2017 12:35:40 GMT -6
I still ride the faders even when the band is great. We all make mistakes and sometimes that singer screamed just to loud but the compression is perfect on the rest of the track and I don't want to add another (well not like that but I use compressors on top of compressors), and so I ride the fader for a moment. Another example is: The violin comes in a little too strong on that one part (and boy can they stick out) and its already got an EQ feeding an la2a and valhalla after the Tc Electronics M-0ne (thank you Svart it's a miracle worker), so it just needs a 3 db dip. Ride that fucking fader. Some songs I am adjusting all the time which I picked up interning as the chief engineer (and my mentor) never took his hands off the board, and was always making adjustments. Sometimes a simple song needs no fader riding as its set and I just have to sit back and finish my coffee, but only two weeks ago I was mixing 3 violins, one accordion, one cello, five different guitars with each recorded on multiple tracks and summed into the 5 tracks, one bass, one keyboard, a full drum kit, a 4 piece percussion kit, and five vocals, and mixdown required me to practically lay on top of the board while I made adjustments everywhere. That's some zen shit right there. It was fun.
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Post by drbill on May 23, 2017 13:23:37 GMT -6
Bottom line - IMO, you have 4 basic choices in terms of fader moves and how you approach them :
1. Let dynamics "hold things in place" and end up with only "rebalancing" automation moves - yielding a mix that's ultimately going to be unbalanced and have things sticking out in spots because you were taught to do it this way. (This can be charming at times - 70's and 80's mixes were full of things "sticking out" or "getting lost" when they shouldn't have. Generally unacceptable in 2017. Typical problem examples - a Bass note resonating the room and sticking way out - but only when the player hits the low D and excites the room. Vocals - a word is lost, or a word sticks out too much. Often.
2. Use Compressors and Limiters to brutally and completely hold things "in place" without hardly any automation moves needed. This yields dead, flat mixes IMO. And of course is very popular with more than a couple world class mix engineers. I think we all know who.....
3. Ride levels CONSTANTLY like a musician would feel dynamics. (My preferred "traditional" method) Pushing more here, pulling back there - making the music more exciting and emotional. Unless the musicians all track together at the same time, or unless the musicians are ALL clairvoyant and know exactly how their part is going to sit in the mix when it's finished, and unless the producer knows EXACTLY how the mix is going to sound in their head and can communicate that to musicians and get their performances perfect - there WILL be parts of an arrangement that can/should be kicked up or pulled back to taste.
4, Use a combo of Dynamics processors to "get the sound" you want, and fader moves to get the arrangement working and emotional impact moving again like they should. (This is the direction I go for most modern styled projects.)
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Post by johneppstein on May 23, 2017 13:59:30 GMT -6
I always volume automate with my mouse. Writing mouse automation isn't as responsive to the music as fader riding on real faders on a real console. With real faders you cdan do a lot of incremental stuff in direct response to what the music is doing. With a mouse you're not working in real time so you don't have that immediacy. For me this is particularly important in mixing things like reverb tails. I think a lot of people seem to be becoming divorced (or at least separated) from that real time element by the difficulty of doing real fader rides with a mouse. You can also ride several faders at once while listening to what you're doing, which you can't really do writing moves with a mouse. And writing automation with a mouse requires you to look at what you're doing instead of just listening and reacting.
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Post by johneppstein on May 23, 2017 14:06:33 GMT -6
I automate stuff that doesn't stand on it's own. Sometimes a guitarist plays a section a little too laid back, a few drum hits are anemic, singer didn't quite hit a matching level on a take, etc.. But for the most part, I find that the better the arrangement, the less the need to create fake dynamics in the composition as a whole. If you have to move faders a lot to get things to pop out, then there is too much going on during that time. With the exception of accenting reverb tails and echo repeats I'm probably more likely to use fader moves to duck parts. But I don't actually think about it, just listen.
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Post by drbill on May 23, 2017 14:08:47 GMT -6
I always volume automate with my mouse. Writing mouse automation isn't as responsive to the music as fader riding on real faders on a real console. With real faders you cdan do a lot of incremental stuff in direct response to what the music is doing. With a mouse you're not working in real time so you don't have that immediacy. For me this is particularly important in mixing things like reverb tails. I think a lot of people seem to be becoming divorced (or at least separated) from that real time element by the difficulty of doing real fader rides with a mouse. You can also ride several faders at once while listening to what you're doing, which you can't really do writing moves with a mouse. And writing automation with a mouse requires you to look at what you're doing instead of just listening and reacting. As someone who rides faders on consoles, faders on control surfaces, and a mouse (trackball actually, I can't deal with a mouse) every day of the week, every week of the year - I have to say that I disagree with you pretty much 100%. Sometimes I'm doing all of the above on a single song. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. But honestly, I wouldn't want to go back to only moving console faders as my only option. I find using my ears AND eyes beneficial and speedier.
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Post by svart on May 23, 2017 14:14:32 GMT -6
I automate stuff that doesn't stand on it's own. Sometimes a guitarist plays a section a little too laid back, a few drum hits are anemic, singer didn't quite hit a matching level on a take, etc.. But for the most part, I find that the better the arrangement, the less the need to create fake dynamics in the composition as a whole. If you have to move faders a lot to get things to pop out, then there is too much going on during that time. With the exception of accenting reverb tails and echo repeats I'm probably more likely to use fader moves to duck parts. But I don't actually think about it, just listen. I always try to run through the songs with the bands before we hit record and do a little producing, even though I don't bill myself as a producer. If I think things need a little more/less energy or things need to be changed to get more out of the songs, I tell the band. They're free to listen or not, but usually they're stoked that someone is helping them out and almost always at least try harder. It's amazing what kids these days don't know about songs. I find this makes things feel a little more cohesive and dynamic than they would be otherwise, and reduces the amount of editing, automation and other trickery on my part. One thing I've taken to doing is requiring the bands to do demos of all their songs on some kind of recording device (usually Iphone or something like this). We sit down and listen before we record and see what everyone likes or doesn't like. It's amazing that by getting an Iphone recording of a bunch of songs, that ultra-flat sound really lets you know what needs to be done differently for more feeling, much like listening through Auratone monitors will tell you everything you need to know about a mix you're working on. It also gives the band more time with the songs and generally leads to multiple re-writes before they hit the studio, leading to better songs overall. But kids these days just don't do this stuff anymore. Most just get right to recording themselves and wondering why they aren't being noticed.
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Post by johneppstein on May 23, 2017 14:21:58 GMT -6
Writing mouse automation isn't as responsive to the music as fader riding on real faders on a real console. With real faders you cdan do a lot of incremental stuff in direct response to what the music is doing. With a mouse you're not working in real time so you don't have that immediacy. For me this is particularly important in mixing things like reverb tails. I think a lot of people seem to be becoming divorced (or at least separated) from that real time element by the difficulty of doing real fader rides with a mouse. You can also ride several faders at once while listening to what you're doing, which you can't really do writing moves with a mouse. And writing automation with a mouse requires you to look at what you're doing instead of just listening and reacting. As someone who rides faders on consoles, faders on control surfaces, and a mouse (trackball actually, I can't deal with a mouse) every day of the week, every week of the year - I have to say that I disagree with you pretty much 100%. Sometimes I'm doing all of the above on a single song. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. But honestly, I wouldn't want to go back to only moving console faders as my only option. I find using my ears AND eyes beneficial and speedier. Well, to each his own technique. I don't have much experience with a wide variety of control surfaces and I'm sure that the better ones are more responsive - the ones I've used haven't been so much though. I used to use trackballs all the time, but have not had one for awhile, I don't really know why. Maybe it's because there have been many different trackball formats and the ones I was really used to became unavailable. Even so, I doubt I'd really want to use one as my main mixing tool. One of these days I'll get around to setting up the flying faders on my console...
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Post by viciousbliss on May 23, 2017 14:57:45 GMT -6
Great insights, everyone. Is anyone here using HUI control surfaces? Anyone fader ride a mix during mastering? I used Waverider on a mix I paid for that couldn't possibly have had much done in the way of fader rides due to the fact that I don't recall the guy doing much after the record button stopped. So far, I think it made it better. It must take a real talent to ride these things real-time.
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 23, 2017 15:10:36 GMT -6
I think this has to do with how one learned. I learned on both console and trackball, I prefer a trackball and mouse clicks then actually recording " fader automation "! Sorry I don't need 7,568 automation points from fader riding when 4 points can do everything I need 😀 Sometimes two! And maybe it's PT that does this only idk, but it's annoying 🤔 I prefer trackball. Hold command highlight drag down and if I need to shape the automation command click to add a new break point 😎
If you need a console for fader riding " to get the feel " then you are not in touch with the song you are mixing 😀 It happens to all of us every now and then and this is why a DAW is awesome. I can print my HW, do my recall notes, save as, close that session, Go get fresh air n smoke a doob, go back in and open a new session then get back to work 😀
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Post by johneppstein on May 23, 2017 16:19:54 GMT -6
I think this has to do with how one learned. I learned on both console and trackball, I prefer a trackball and mouse clicks then actually recording " fader automation "! Sorry I don't need 7,568 automation points from fader riding when 4 points can do everything I need 😀 Sometimes two! And maybe it's PT that does this only idk, but it's annoying 🤔 I prefer trackball. Hold command highlight drag down and if I need to shape the automation command click to add a new break point 😎 Well, understand that when I talk about fader riding I'm talking about real time, not using it to write automation. If I ever get around to getting my flying faders working (probably after I fix the bad one) that will change, but the automation points still won't be written to the DAW. And yes, it has everything to do with how one learned. I learned to mix doing live gigs back in the days when the "volume controls" were rotary knobs. Funny, I would argue the exact opposite. dealing with a mouse (trackball, keyboard) and screen puts me at at least one level of remove from the music. I have difficulty mixing like that compared to just putting the fingers in direct connection to the ears, reacting to what I'm listening to. Mixing is not a cerebral exercise to me.
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Post by subspace on May 23, 2017 17:01:12 GMT -6
Great insights, everyone. Is anyone here using HUI control surfaces? Anyone fader ride a mix during mastering? I used Waverider on a mix I paid for that couldn't possibly have had much done in the way of fader rides due to the fact that I don't recall the guy doing much after the record button stopped. So far, I think it made it better. It must take a real talent to ride these things real-time. Yeah, i use a HUI, not Mackie's original but the HUI protocol on an Audient DLC. The importance of using the HUI is not for writing automation per se, it's for riding the fader while listening to see if you can make something happen in the mix. Without looking for a problem, without thinking about it, but just listening and experimenting. By the time I get to writing it, I could probably just draw it in as I've heard what I want already. You can draw in drum parts too, so go ahead and tell me there's no advantage to playing them live while listening...
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