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Post by jeromemason on May 15, 2017 19:41:39 GMT -6
I saw a package deal on a pair of sub's and I've never mixed or even tried running two sub's. Just wondering the thoughts of some that either have or had dual subs going.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 15, 2017 20:00:44 GMT -6
It's way better than one from the standpoint of translation.
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Post by jeromemason on May 15, 2017 20:08:16 GMT -6
It's way better than one from the standpoint of translation. Does this also translate to punch as well? I'm just kind of curious how this would work and also how sensitive it is to have things aligned symmetrically so there is no smearing in the impulse response and what not. I read an article where two guys were pitching using 4 or more subs in a room instead of using heavy trapping when there was low-end issues. Basically they said somewhat of the same thing you said, that by using more than one sub it gives you a better translation. I'm really close to pulling the trigger here because from what I was reading it did make a lot of sense. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 15, 2017 20:15:46 GMT -6
It's way better than one from the standpoint of translation. Does this also translate to punch as well? I'm just kind of curious how this would work and also how sensitive it is to have things aligned symmetrically so there is no smearing in the impulse response and what not. I read an article where two guys were pitching using 4 or more subs in a room instead of using heavy trapping when there was low-end issues. Basically they said somewhat of the same thing you said, that by using more than one sub it gives you a better translation. I'm really close to pulling the trigger here because from what I was reading it did make a lot of sense. I've had my eye on them for weeks. Haha |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 16, 2017 7:15:56 GMT -6
Stereo subs are the way to go if you can! The secret is the acustical summing above the crossover point your mid bass suddenly has life and dimension for best result have the distance between sub diaphragm and that channels sat low freq diaphragm less than 1/4 the wavelength of the crossover freq or 1/2. This will give you summation in phase 1-2 octaves above the crossover point.
As much as I'm not a fan of EQ and DSP on monitors, modern digital amps with DSP sure are great at solving some room issues and your room isn't huge, don't try to fight the physics your room is only going to go so low !
This with the best sounding PA's you will find some subs flying with the high/mids.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 16, 2017 8:15:08 GMT -6
The idea that you can't hear the difference between mono and stereo at low frequencies is a steaming crock of audiophile BS that was used to sell stereo "satellite" accessory speakers for mono hi fi systems in the 1950s. It has been resurrected by the consumer electronics industry several times.
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Post by EmRR on May 16, 2017 8:25:51 GMT -6
Yes, you can certainly tell what direction the elephants are coming from, and it ain't the mids and highs that get your attention.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 16, 2017 11:19:30 GMT -6
The idea that you can't hear the difference between mono and stereo at low frequencies is a steaming crock of audiophile BS that was used to sell stereo "satellite" accessory speakers for mono hi fi systems in the 1950s. It has been resurrected by the consumer electronics industry several times. Anyone who ever made the claim of non directional bass couldn't answer the simple question of what freq it became directional! A lot of the nondirectional bass are because of measurements in small spaces and not understanding the Omni nature of most subs. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 16, 2017 12:19:17 GMT -6
You will hear phase differences even if you can't locate a tone. It's trivial to demonstrate using a mono sub paired with full range speakers.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 16, 2017 12:49:27 GMT -6
Bob
I would say , but it's easy, but mono bass isn't damn hard to make it realistic. It's not the world of speaker guy's , it's acousticians ( I know one who I has pushed big rather than stereo subs) and marketing ( make it cheaper more convenient) .
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Post by jeromemason on May 16, 2017 13:28:22 GMT -6
Well I've ordered a pair of subs, Bob Olhsson@ericn@emrr any suggestions on where to place these and should I pull the tape measure out in getting the symmetry correct?? I've never done a pair, totally new to this. And they'll be here tomorrow so I def want to get up to speed on how to set these up before they get here because I have a pile of work to mix. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 13:32:10 GMT -6
I tend to agree with Bob. "Full range" speakers (those that go down to 40Hz or so) are certainly much better for detecting phase and localization issues. But the lower you can go, the better. The sense of spaciousness in a mix is very much determined by the low-frequency pressure differential at the ears.
And aside from cost, I think argument in favor of the single-sub is a relic of the LP days. You had to keep the cutter from dancing all over the place, so lowest frequencies were driven toward the center. Even if the original recording had rich low frequency differences, the mastering engineer had to reduce them. One of the many beauties of digital audio is that you can actually keep that information. This is one of the many reasons that I feel the current LP renaissance is just a hipster thing and not grounded in any audio realities.
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Post by EmRR on May 16, 2017 13:34:25 GMT -6
I would defer to others on this. My recent experience with subs has been in large space live rigs, as part of the overall system time alignment. Small space subs I haven't experienced in awhile.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 16, 2017 14:00:53 GMT -6
Start close to the full range under if you can, you know the drill move'um till it works!
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Post by drbill on May 16, 2017 14:04:23 GMT -6
any suggestions on where to place these and should I pull the tape measure out in getting the symmetry correct?? i've got no suggestions, but I can tell you this. If you've got a null in your mix position (and even if you don't), moving your subs 1-2 inches forwards, sideways or backwards can make a HUGE difference in the sweet spot listening position. Then the crossover points are critical. Transitioning from non-sub to sub monitoring is tricky in my experience. I had a buddy from JBL help me set up my older CRM and it was really tweaky - and WHERE the subs want to live? ? ? LOL Usually in the most awkward place - equipment and walking wise. I guess Murphy is their cousin or something. |
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Post by jeromemason on May 16, 2017 14:22:44 GMT -6
any suggestions on where to place these and should I pull the tape measure out in getting the symmetry correct?? i've got no suggestions, but I can tell you this. If you've got a null in your mix position (and even if you don't), moving your subs 1-2 inches forwards, sideways or backwards can make a HUGE difference in the sweet spot listening position. Then the crossover points are critical. Transitioning from non-sub to sub monitoring is tricky in my experience. I had a buddy from JBL help me set up my older CRM and it was really tweaky - and WHERE the subs want to live? ? ? LOL Usually in the most awkward place - equipment and walking wise. I guess Murphy is their cousin or something. Well I'm just looking for advice from folks like you that have this set up. I do have a null at 125hz but other than that my room is pretty flat, but that was running one sub. There is two open space between a pair of diaphragmatic absorbers I built, I think sticking them right there would be my first place and then just adjusting doing sweeps until I get that null pulled up a bit. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 16, 2017 14:58:44 GMT -6
I would avoid ported subs. That solves most of the critical placement problem.
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Post by jeromemason on May 16, 2017 15:02:09 GMT -6
Ehhh the ones I bought are front baffled..... I couldn't afford sealed
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Post by johneppstein on May 16, 2017 15:03:45 GMT -6
I'd stack the full range speakers directly on top of the subs. You want it to be as close to a "singlr speaker" (per side) as possible.
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 16, 2017 15:51:31 GMT -6
This goes along with the Amphion design ethos... dual subs / stackable on top monitors...
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Post by jazznoise on May 17, 2017 14:44:31 GMT -6
In small rooms, the issue is that room modes can be so big that they can cause different tones to 'sit' left or right. Interaural time delay as a listening mechanic doesn't work well for bass, it's intensity and phase at low frequencies that allow your brain to attribute directionality. If your right sub puts out a 50 Hz tone which nulls to your right but rings to your left, the localization is gonna be messed up
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Post by jeromemason on May 17, 2017 18:15:06 GMT -6
Running 2 subs is definitely the way to go. Way fuller and not having to drive the amps so hard produces a much smoother/accurate bass. The subs I bought have a passive radiator so they dive deep but have a ton of punch, really happy I went this way.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 17, 2017 19:24:20 GMT -6
Running 2 subs is definitely the way to go. Way fuller and not having to drive the amps so hard produces a much smoother/accurate bass. The subs I bought have a passive radiator so they dive deep but have a ton of punch, really happy I went this way. What subs did you go with? |
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Post by jeromemason on May 18, 2017 15:04:36 GMT -6
Seismic Audio Spectra 10's
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 18, 2017 15:58:21 GMT -6
Seismic Audio Spectra 10's For the money not bad HI VI 10 standard plate amp vented box. HI VI makes a lot of drivers for B&W. |
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