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Post by javamad on May 12, 2017 5:23:23 GMT -6
Hi All, Just looking for some feedback on the gear list for my new studio setup. The space is small rectangle of around 45m2 (484 ft2) and I am going to divide it into 3 main areas; bathroom & storage (2m x 5m), Control room (3m x 5m) and Live room (3m x 5m). This project is an evenings and weekends endeavor for me now but one day, who knows, I might be able to scratch out an existence in audio :-) For the moment the day job is paying for all this! I am going to have a hybrid workflow because I enjoy messing around with hardware. I am willing to suffer the minor recall overhead that it brings because I feel that the benefits I get (in sound and personal enjoyment) outweigh the costs and "inconvenience". I would also like this studio to be a place where guest engineers could come to do sessions in the future but it will probably take me a couple of years to build up the front end gear to make that attractive. But I am buying fewer high end pieces now with that in mind, instead of just filling up the racks with mid-level gear that I won't be enthused by. The build is getting started this week and of course the build is eating into my gear budget But hey, gear does not live in a vacumn, so I am trying to balance the spend by doing a decent enough space even if I have to postpone some gear purchases. One thing is clear .. it's easier to swing back around and buy more gear later than it is to come back and try to upgrade your build! I am down with the isolation and acoustics and have been a lurker on John Sayers forum for years and have bought(and read!) the studio construction book. With the fact that I already have 2 Apollo's, I am thinking I could postpone the purchase some pre's and use the Unison pre's and my Audient ASP880 for the moment. That gives me 16 channels of pre's to get going. The most likely session type in the studio in the first year will be my own pop/rock stuff with some friends and general de-bugging sessions where I get people in to practice my dark art on them. I would expect vocal/overdubs and local band demos. I will be open to pretty much anything that gets some studio flight time under my belt to build up experience. My starter gear list will be as follows PREAMPS: [HAVE] 2 x Apollo 8 (8 Unison pre's) [HAVE] Audient ASP880 (8 pre's) [LATER] Manley Force [LATER] RND 5024 [LATER] 4 x API 512v [LATER] 4 x SSL VHD [LATER] 2 x Chandler TG2 OUTBOARD: [HAVE] RND 5060 Summing mixer/Monitor Controller [HAVE] 2 x Distressors [HAVE] Manley Mini Massive [HAVE] Chandler Zener Limiter [HAVE] Stam SA4000 [HAVE] Eventide Eclipse [HAVE] Handsome Audio Zulu [BUY] 2 x SSL 611 EQ [BUY] Retro Doublewide [LATER] 2 x Stam SA-76 [LATER] 4 x API 550A [LATER] 2 x RND 551 EQ [LATER] A Designs Hammer [LATER] 2 x Maag Audio EQ4 MICS: [HAVE] Neumann TLM 102 [HAVE] Stereo Pair AKG 314 [HAVE] Stereo Pair Oktava 012-01 [HAVE] Reslo Beeb ribbon [HAVE] Aston Origin [HAVE] ATM 250DE [HAVE] Rode NT1A [BUY] Chandler REDD Mic (main vocal mic!) [comes with its own pre] [BUY] Stereo Pair Roswell Mini K47 [BUY] SM7 B [BUY] 2 x SM57 [BUY] Stereo Pair Coles 4038 [BUY] Mojave MA-200 [Later] 3 x vintage Sennhieser 421 [Later] Vintage D12 [LATER] ... the mic list never really ends does it? :-) Thoughts?
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Post by bricejchandler on May 12, 2017 6:17:01 GMT -6
Hey,
good luck with the new studio! Always a fun time when you're setting up a new place.
A couple thoughts:
I would rent a pair of coles 4038 before buying them, even though they're probably my favorite mics for Ohs, they don't sound good in every room. The room I'm working in most of the time these days is not very big and the ceiling is pretty low and I've had much better success using beyer M160s hypercardiods or Schoeps MK4s, the Coles just sound funny...also the Coles are heavy mics and need pretty heavy mic stands which isn't always convenient in tight spaces.
I would probably buy more cheap dynamic mics, an audix i5, a Beyer M201, an EV RE20, Sennheiser 602 etc... That is before buying any EQs. Lately I've been tracking drums with practically no eq. For kick I have a SOntronics DM1B, AKG D12, D112, audix D6, RE20, senn e602, and for snare I've been using 57, M201s, I5s, 421S, SCHoeps mk4S, U87s, sennheiser E604 and I'm really able to deal with pretty much any drum or drummer and get a great sound with no eq during tracking. Buying a bunch of dynamics'll probably cost as much as one good preamp channel and , to me at least, have a much bigger impact.
Lastly, I would get a small tracking sidecar before getting a bunch of preamps and eps, Just checking out your Later preamp list, there's about 15Ks worth of gear just in preamps, you can get a great little tracking sidecar for way less. I've seen quite a few Studer 169s go for about $3500 ( in Europe), double that and you can get a Studer 089 that'll give a Neve a run for its money. I just find that for my workflow, when tracking live bands, I really work a lot faster when I have a board in front of me, I don't really like spending a ton of time patching preamps and eqs in and out but maybe that's just me.
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Post by javamad on May 12, 2017 8:06:48 GMT -6
Hey, good luck with the new studio! Always a fun time when you're setting up a new place. A couple thoughts: I would rent a pair of coles 4038 before buying them, even though they're probably my favorite mics for Ohs, they don't sound good in every room. The room I'm working in most of the time these days is not very big and the ceiling is pretty low and I've had much better success using beyer M160s hypercardiods or Schoeps MK4s, the Coles just sound funny...also the Coles are heavy mics and need pretty heavy mic stands which isn't always convenient in tight spaces. I would probably buy more cheap dynamic mics, an audix i5, a Beyer M201, an EV RE20, Sennheiser 602 etc... That is before buying any EQs. Lately I've been tracking drums with practically no eq. For kick I have a SOntronics DM1B, AKG D12, D112, audix D6, RE20, senn e602, and for snare I've been using 57, M201s, I5s, 421S, SCHoeps mk4S, U87s, sennheiser E604 and I'm really able to deal with pretty much any drum or drummer and get a great sound with no eq during tracking. Buying a bunch of dynamics'll probably cost as much as one good preamp channel and , to me at least, have a much bigger impact. Lastly, I would get a small tracking sidecar before getting a bunch of preamps and eps, Just checking out your Later preamp list, there's about 15Ks worth of gear just in preamps, you can get a great little tracking sidecar for way less. I've seen quite a few Studer 169s go for about $3500 ( in Europe), double that and you can get a Studer 089 that'll give a Neve a run for its money. I just find that for my workflow, when tracking live bands, I really work a lot faster when I have a board in front of me, I don't really like spending a ton of time patching preamps and eqs in and out but maybe that's just me. Some good points there, thanks. On EQ, I do think that I should be able to manage with no outboard for a while .. or if in need I can always pop a UAD EQ on any channel where required (a CurveBender on every tom? ). That would probably push me to better mic technique anyway, always a good thing. On the sidecar thing, yes, I had my eye on a Calrec one with 5 Stereo and 6 mono channels for around €5k including shipping to Dublin. I like what you are saying about not having to patch a load of different things in. When I was considering it, I was thinking how nice that might be on a fully mic'ed kit :-) I'll definitely take another look at that more seriously. Thanks again for the input!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 12, 2017 8:20:30 GMT -6
I would consider single room vs 2 your space is on the small side. Learn to solder, DIY will save you big time! You have a lot of entry level mics, I would get myself a nice gefell or Sony FET LDC and a nice stereo pair of SDC, and build my dynamic collection. Don't be locked to the wish list stay liquid and buy what pops up used! Get a couple of TT patchbays now and grow the bays as you grow! Build it right and pay attention to the bone's! Run the wire you will need now, even if you can't afford to hook up now ! Think of the future! Good HVAC goes along way!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 12, 2017 8:23:25 GMT -6
You didn't mention instruments, a good kit amp guitars that you can get a good tone of quick are more valuable than any gear!
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 12, 2017 8:28:08 GMT -6
Don't be locked to the wish list stay liquid and buy what pops up used! This is the most sage advice you'll find.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 12, 2017 8:33:43 GMT -6
Hey, good luck with the new studio! Always a fun time when you're setting up a new place. A couple thoughts: I would rent a pair of coles 4038 before buying them, even though they're probably my favorite mics for Ohs, they don't sound good in every room. The room I'm working in most of the time these days is not very big and the ceiling is pretty low and I've had much better success using beyer M160s hypercardiods or Schoeps MK4s, the Coles just sound funny...also the Coles are heavy mics and need pretty heavy mic stands which isn't always convenient in tight spaces. I would probably buy more cheap dynamic mics, an audix i5, a Beyer M201, an EV RE20, Sennheiser 602 etc... That is before buying any EQs. Lately I've been tracking drums with practically no eq. For kick I have a SOntronics DM1B, AKG D12, D112, audix D6, RE20, senn e602, and for snare I've been using 57, M201s, I5s, 421S, SCHoeps mk4S, U87s, sennheiser E604 and I'm really able to deal with pretty much any drum or drummer and get a great sound with no eq during tracking. Buying a bunch of dynamics'll probably cost as much as one good preamp channel and , to me at least, have a much bigger impact. Lastly, I would get a small tracking sidecar before getting a bunch of preamps and eps, Just checking out your Later preamp list, there's about 15Ks worth of gear just in preamps, you can get a great little tracking sidecar for way less. I've seen quite a few Studer 169s go for about $3500 ( in Europe), double that and you can get a Studer 089 that'll give a Neve a run for its money. I just find that for my workflow, when tracking live bands, I really work a lot faster when I have a board in front of me, I don't really like spending a ton of time patching preamps and eqs in and out but maybe that's just me. Some good points there, thanks. On EQ, I do think that I should be able to manage with no outboard for a while .. or if in need I can always pop a UAD EQ on any channel where required (a CurveBender on every tom? ). That would probably push me to better mic technique anyway, always a good thing. On the sidecar thing, yes, I had my eye on a Calrec one with 5 Stereo and 6 mono channels for around €5k including shipping to Dublin. I like what you are saying about not having to patch a load of different things in. When I was considering it, I was thinking how nice that might be on a fully mic'ed kit :-) I'll definitely take another look at that more seriously. Thanks again for the input! You're welcome. Another thing I like about having a mixer is the ability buss and commit to tape. For drums, I usually find myself bussing Kick in and out together, Snare top and bot, and quite often toms and overheads to a stereo channel. Same thing for guitars, if I have multiple amps and mics, I'll buss in to one track. Lately for some genres I've been even bussing all the drum mics to one mono track and end up come mix time with like 7 or 8 tracks max.
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Post by indiehouse on May 12, 2017 10:05:28 GMT -6
Seriously reconsider your room size. The best mics and gear in the world can't take that sound out of your recordings. Speaking from experience.
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Post by jeremygillespie on May 12, 2017 11:39:01 GMT -6
Id personally skip the api pres as you can get twice as many of Jeff's for the money If you are willing to DIY them.
Id also go 500 series all the way before doing a sidecar. If you're gonna get an older side car you had better be ready to learn the ins and out of it, as you'll most likely wind up having to fix all sorts of problems.
Also, if you happen to get some VP-28's you can use them both as mic pres and also put them across your mix bus for some extra sauce.
I agree with the others in thinking your rooms seem a bit small to get really useful sounds.
What headphone system are you planning on using?
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Post by javamad on May 12, 2017 11:58:48 GMT -6
Seriously reconsider your room size. The best mics and gear in the world can't take that sound out of your recordings. Speaking from experience. indiehouse / ericnThis is probably the thing I have agonized over most... one room or two. Phase 1 of the build only blocks off the toilet/storage area and I want to get some gear in to do isolation tests and hear what the space has to offer. I mentioned two spaces above because its what I'd like to have but I have a niggling feeling that once I get in there, I won't want to live with such a small live area. jcoutu1: Liquid gear list ... is there any other kind? :-D I am on Reverb daily and a lot of what I already have I have picked up at discount. Thanks all for some great insight so far. It's nice to get the plan out in the fresh air of a forum thread and see what real-world experience form other people can contribute
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Post by svart on May 12, 2017 12:44:52 GMT -6
I'd differ to others about the list.
Instead, make another list. Read about all the major recording and mixing engineers and their gear. See what they use. Don't go by what they endorse, nor by glossy pages in magazines, but what they actually use.
You'll see that it's always the same gear mentioned.
1073/1084 312/512 1176 LA2A SSL bus Distressor U47 U87 C414 SM57/58
etc..
Don't do what I did and fall victim to buying "deals" that aren't the normal workhorse devices you see in the pro's studios. You'll end up selling them and losing money that could have added up to something professional.
There are no shortcuts. Use what the pros use and you can forget about worrying if your gear is good enough.
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 12, 2017 12:47:18 GMT -6
I would consider a one room setup with gobos and correct acoustic treatment.. You have great gear, please test these pieces on your wish list and then if you need them buy used... Mics and instruments provide just as much color and tone or more than outboard plus having a few diffferent quality instruments goes a long way for creativity and overall quality of sound.
Can't mix what you can't hear and you have no budget for monitors or room treatment ? What monitors? I recommend the new Barefoot FoorPrint 01 or Dynaudio bm6mk3, if on a budget Yamaha Hs8 or JBL 308...
Do you have to have API and SSL pres? Why not CAPI an 8 piece? Even if you pay a tech it will be cheaper than API... Plus you have two audients and apollos how many preamps do you really need? Get 4 AML ez1073 ( Neve flavor and has Eq ) ( can get output fader now ) plus 4 Or 8 CAPI vp26/28....
I see the Manley force for tube preamps? Again how many preamps?
The outboard like most here recommend to me to go 500 series any buy used however if resale is a concern then maybe go with 19"...
Have fun 😀
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 12, 2017 12:58:16 GMT -6
I'd differ to others about the list. Instead, make another list. Read about all the major recording and mixing engineers and their gear. See what they use. Don't go by what they endorse, nor by glossy pages in magazines, but what they actually use. You'll see that it's always the same gear mentioned. 1073/1084 312/512 1176 LA2A SSL bus Distressor U47 U87 C414 SM57/58 etc.. Don't do what I did and fall victim to buying "deals" that aren't the normal workhorse devices you see in the pro's studios. You'll end up selling them and losing money that could have added up to something professional. There are no shortcuts. Use what the pros use and you can forget about worrying if your gear is good enough. You don't lose money on deals. If you do, you didn't get a deal in the first place.
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Post by svart on May 12, 2017 13:16:02 GMT -6
I'd differ to others about the list. Instead, make another list. Read about all the major recording and mixing engineers and their gear. See what they use. Don't go by what they endorse, nor by glossy pages in magazines, but what they actually use. You'll see that it's always the same gear mentioned. 1073/1084 312/512 1176 LA2A SSL bus Distressor U47 U87 C414 SM57/58 etc.. Don't do what I did and fall victim to buying "deals" that aren't the normal workhorse devices you see in the pro's studios. You'll end up selling them and losing money that could have added up to something professional. There are no shortcuts. Use what the pros use and you can forget about worrying if your gear is good enough. You don't lose money on deals. If you do, you didn't get a deal in the first place. Sure you do. Mind the "" though.. Some product comes on market, gets huge amounts of hype and good reviews, folks fill forum threads full of love stories, and the prices are starting to rise.. You buy one fearing that one day it'll be too expensive later.. A year later, you're still not getting great results, but all your peers had told you how awesome this product is, so you simply assume that you were doing something wrong this whole time. You buy more "deals" like this in hopes of competing with the big boys some day, but you just can't quite crack the secret sauce.. Then.. The threads go dark. The rave reviews start to disappear. The product you bought now starts to show up on Reverb, Ebay and classifieds in droves, driving the resale price down into Davey Jones' locker. Now, your deal that was once "worth" a lot to folks is now worthless and you realize that it was all hype, peer-pressure, and hope and the pros are still using pro equipment. Do it right the first time.
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 12, 2017 13:23:30 GMT -6
😂😂😂😂😂 svart that was funny ..... is this Goosebumps Gear in the Dark kids horror book? Who buys gear based on forum threads anyway? Plugins maybe... but you can demo gear and plugins if you are fluid or have CC... Idk, finding deals on good proven gear is definitely out there you have to be diligent and probably have some luck... I agree to not buy gear based on hype or forums or another person's experience because this thing we love called pro audio can be awfully subjective and each person hears differently... Yes there is proven gear that works I am not disagreeing at all with you there, and fortunate for us that list is expanding and growing everyday while also becoming more affordable...
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Post by javamad on May 12, 2017 15:38:00 GMT -6
Wow, another round of great input. Some real food for thought here.
I have been all over the forums and researched all the gear on my list (and so many more). I agree that there are so many deals going on all the time plus all the new stuff coming out... it makes your head spin!
There are a few pieces of gear that attract me though and I think for where I am right now, that can be as important as anything else. If we take it that most mid to high level gear is at 80-100% of it's promise then while there will obviously be a few items that I won't get my head around, most will provide a great experience. Unfortunately as I am sure you have seen posted on forums before, outside the USA there is very little demo-ing of gear going on. Stores do not accept returns unless something is defective. And in Ireland we don't even have a market size for a large retailer to exist to have a proper set of gear set up for in-store demo's. Them's the breaks and I'll have to make do with second hand experience many times to help me make my decisions but I'm ok with that.
To be honest I could get into the studio next week with the first phase done with only my Macbook Pro, the Apollos, the RND 5060, my Adam A7X and Avantones, the Zulu, the Distressors and the few mics I already have and make hit records all day long .... if the material was good enough. Hell, I could probably do it right now at home! All I'm doing is trying to make it more enjoyable and give myself that "pro engineer" feeling :-P
I have wanted to open a studio since I was 18 (now 53 :-P ) so I'm livin' the dream :-D
Thank you all for the input so far, it has definitely helped more than I expected because there are more than gear suggestions here, there is workflow and other stuff too.
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 12, 2017 16:15:56 GMT -6
#1 - Keep bathroom, and make everything one slightly larger space!
Personally, I'd buy a small decent sounding used console (at least) 16 channels, and outboard Comps/Limiters? and a few EQ's. Having a desk with nice pre's to track and then using it to mix, is very cool thing. No fussing with this or that, just make music, and have a blast.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on May 12, 2017 17:28:36 GMT -6
#1 - Keep bathroom, and make everything one slightly larger space! Personally, I'd buy a small decent sounding used console (at least) 16 channels, and outboard Comps/Limiters? and a few EQ's. Having a desk with nice pre's to track and then using it to mix, is very cool thing. No fussing with this or that, just make music, and have a blast. You know I'm a console guy, but before investing in anything that's going to tie up a ton of $ find something reasonable used. A dirty little secret here is that The 2 little POS Behringer's are the most used boards one with the gear one on the bench! Even if you don't like the workflow of a console a little mixer is a Swiss Army knife and life saver. Quick mic pre got it, headphone amp got it, level matching box got it, submix got it. The one box that is most used when trouble shooting and elimiting possible problems? My little POS Behringer!
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Post by stormymondays on May 12, 2017 18:00:43 GMT -6
Keep it one room, "all in one". You don't want to end up with two small, boxy sounding rooms.
Every musician that has recorded in my one room studio absolutely loves the experience, too. It only takes 5 more minutes to get sounds, if you know what you're doing.
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Post by bluegrassdan on May 12, 2017 18:10:09 GMT -6
Invest in a good cue system (we have Aviom). All the best mics and preamps in the world won't matter if the musicians are frustrated with an inadequate headphone system.
That includes decent headphones too. Your singers will sing better, non-fretted instruments will be better in tune, and it will take less time.
(I love great mics and gear, too. But a bad cue will ruin you.)
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Post by javamad on May 12, 2017 18:51:29 GMT -6
Invest in a good cue system (we have Aviom). All the best mics and preamps in the world won't matter if the musicians are frustrated with an inadequate headphone system. That includes decent headphones too. Your singers will sing better, non-fretted instruments will be better in tune, and it will take less time. (I love great mics and gear, too. But a bad cue will ruin you.) For headphone amp I am looking at the Behringer Powerplay system. I like the ability to just run a few cat5's around and that the artists can do their own cue balance (though I have seen a couple of comments where it has not always worked out due to artists not understanding the operation) For headphones, I already have a few Extreme Isolation EX-25 which seem to work well. I also like the easy to replace ear pads for wear and tear.
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Post by bluegrassdan on May 12, 2017 18:54:48 GMT -6
I highly recommend open back headphones for vocalists. They can monitor lower and hear themselves better. My AKG701s go to every session.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 19:59:47 GMT -6
None of the other gear matters if you don't have a well-controlled room. You'll make so many bad choices if your ears aren't getting a really good sense of what the mics picked up. And the mics won't give you what you need if they're being overwhelmed by room nodes and boxiness. You can make a good start with 2 or 3k of treatment. Don't glue foam on the walls. It barely works, the glue outgasses for weeks, and it's depressing to look at.
As far as the rest of your gear list, take your time. Everybody's got their favorite mics (I like SDCs and a few other specialty mics), but the most experienced among us can give a very good reason why they use one and exactly what the circumstances are. For example, a lot of ribbons may need more standoff distance than you can provide. It's always a good idea to listen to other suggestions, but I really like a conservative approach about adding gear. Spend enough time with each piece to know what it will do for you in your room. Then you'll know what you might need for the next piece. The worst possible thing is to have money tied up in a piece you rarely use, when you can't afford a piece that's really critical.
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Post by javamad on May 13, 2017 6:03:54 GMT -6
None of the other gear matters if you don't have a well-controlled room. You'll make so many bad choices if your ears aren't getting a really good sense of what the mics picked up. And the mics won't give you what you need if they're being overwhelmed by room nodes and boxiness. You can make a good start with 2 or 3k of treatment. Don't glue foam on the walls. It barely works, the glue outgasses for weeks, and it's depressing to look at. As far as the rest of your gear list, take your time. Everybody's got their favorite mics (I like SDCs and a few other specialty mics), but the most experienced among us can give a very good reason why they use one and exactly what the circumstances are. For example, a lot of ribbons may need more standoff distance than you can provide. It's always a good idea to listen to other suggestions, but I really like a conservative approach about adding gear. Spend enough time with each piece to know what it will do for you in your room. Then you'll know what you might need for the next piece. The worst possible thing is to have money tied up in a piece you rarely use, when you can't afford a piece that's really critical. On acoustic treatment I am pretty well informed. I have had an interest in acoustics for years and I have researched quite a bit. First rule .. no foam! That stuff is pretty much useless. I will be building my own bass traps and broadband absorbers using rockwool and other standard building materials. The only doubt I have is around my ability to get this stuff to look good! With my one-room designs I am looking to have a live-end, dead-end approach where the mixing set up sits against the back wall of the unit. Ceiling height in the unit goes from 2.5 meters (8.5 ft) at the rear and slopes up to 3.1 meters (10ft) at the front. The live end with the drums will be at the front to get the maximum height possible and there will be some reflection/diffusion on the walls in that zone. (kinda difficult to describe this in text )
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 6:29:38 GMT -6
Sounds like you've made the first priority the "first" priority. That's great. I concur with the one-room notion. Unless you're tracking outside people every day (and need to manage traffic) a single room will sound better and will be a lot more pleasant to be in.
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