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Post by sozocaps on May 13, 2017 13:17:32 GMT -6
Yea but in this example the conversion sounds very ok with the hardware... Maybe it could get cleaner and better yet but conversion is NOT doing all this to the recording it is the unison crap. Seriously people listen with HIGH quality headphones as your room will not add anything to the test and tell me how different the two examples are...
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Post by ragan on May 13, 2017 13:41:29 GMT -6
Yea but in this example the conversion sounds very ok with the hardware... Maybe it could get cleaner and better yet but conversion is NOT doing all this to the recording it is the unison crap. Seriously people listen with HIGH quality headphones as your room will not add anything to the test and tell me how different the two examples are... I can't tell if you're responding to me or not. I'm simply talking about another conversation we were having about conversion, specifically Apollo. Which I am still a great fan of, despite preferring and, ultimately switching to, the Symphony MKII. As far as the video, I liked the hardware better by a good bit. Reflects my own tests with the Unison vs Heritage too.
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 13, 2017 15:00:18 GMT -6
I'm never going to have a pro recording with an Apollo guys.. ok I get it 😫😂 ( joking ) Man and you guys are talking about the improved BF too... Can I ask what you guys are monitoring on? DAC and Monitors ? ragan drbill I see SozoCaps listed Focal and BeyerDynHP and I know JK has Amphion and Dbox so maybe my monitoring is what is the difference. You guys DAC and monitors are a fair step above my Apollo and yammy HS8 .. ( monitors are my next big upgrade ) Idk I just don't ever want to buy an apogee product.. I asked them for an EDU discount ( anything even 5-10% would have been huge, Avid and UA was willing 😩 ) on a 16 x 16 symph mk1 and was told to buy a refurb if I did not like the prices or go to a lower configuration like a 2x6 😫😠So that's when I went with the SF Apollo ( and yes did receive a decent EDU discount for transparency ) Cool thread and it's been interesting reading the feedback! Thanks
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Post by drsax on May 13, 2017 15:00:22 GMT -6
Hardware sounds better in every regard to me. But, It's still amazing what a single apollo can do for the $$$.
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Post by ragan on May 13, 2017 15:05:56 GMT -6
I'm never going to have a pro recording with an Apollo guys.. ok I get it 😫😂 ( joking ) Man and you guys are talking about the improved BF too... Can I ask what you guys are monitoring on? DAC and Monitors ? ragan drbill I see SozoCaps listed Focal and BeyerDynHP and I know JK has Amphion and Dbox so maybe my monitoring is what is the difference. You guys DAC and monitors are a fair step above my Apollo and yammy HS8 .. ( monitors are my next big upgrade ) Idk I just don't ever want to buy an apogee product.. I asked them for an EDU discount ( anything even 5-10% would have been huge, Avid and UA was willing 😩 ) on a 16 x 16 symph mk1 and was told to buy a refurb if I did not like the prices or go to a lower configuration like a 2x6 😫😠So that's when I went with the SF Apollo ( and yes did receive a decent EDU discount for transparency ) Cool thread and it's been interesting reading the feedback! Thanks Chase. I feel like you think everyone's always slagging the Apollo and I literally have no idea where in the world you're getting it. What gives? I loved both the SF and BF I had and say so all the time.
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Post by drbill on May 13, 2017 15:23:07 GMT -6
Can I ask what you guys are monitoring on? DAC and Monitors ? ragan drbill Hedback designed room; JBL LSR28P's; Avid 16X16's, Tascam DS-M7.1 DAC for monitoring.
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 13, 2017 15:23:37 GMT -6
ragan That's all you got out of my post? Did you see the ( joking ) or the shocked laughing hysterically faces ( 😫😂 ) I make great records with my setup. I also added how I went with Apollo over Avid and Apogee. I have been looking at new monitors and DAC.. I was asking what you monitor on! No I don't take what anyone else had to say about the Apollo as gospel 😀 What makes their ears or opinion more verified/ qualified than mine? I respect all opinions and wouldn't ask if I was seeking knowledge/ people's experience I wanted to see what RGO members use for monitoring and DAC because I feel that may have a direct result on their feedback drbill thanks definitely a way more refined CR than I monitor from! I am adding more bass traps and a few more panels for flutters/ first reflections as well as looking at Barefoot Monitors.. Would hate to not like great monitors because my DAC is artificially coloring what I hear... any thoughts
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Post by sozocaps on May 13, 2017 15:34:55 GMT -6
Yea but in this example the conversion sounds very ok with the hardware... Maybe it could get cleaner and better yet but conversion is NOT doing all this to the recording it is the unison crap. Seriously people listen with HIGH quality headphones as your room will not add anything to the test and tell me how different the two examples are... I can't tell if you're responding to me or not. I'm simply talking about another conversation we were having about conversion, specifically Apollo. Which I am still a great fan of, despite preferring and, ultimately switching to, the Symphony MKII. As far as the video, I liked the hardware better by a good bit. Reflects my own tests with the Unison vs Heritage too. No not anyone in particular... I just don't ever like plugs for the sound, convienience and power, yes, never ever the sound.
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Post by sozocaps on May 13, 2017 15:37:58 GMT -6
Hardware sounds better in every regard to me. But, It's still amazing what a single apollo can do for the $$$. Ok you say this and I thought about it some too and here is what I would like to hear. I would like to hear the Apollo preamps direct WITHOUT the dumb damaging coloring box unison plugin I bet I would like it!
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Post by donr on May 13, 2017 15:41:42 GMT -6
I think I recall from the video they had two Apollo units so they had enough Unison mic channels.
You notice the change on the first switch to Apollo from real, but if you didn't see the graphic, would you have looked up and said, "Heyy, what happened?" Maybe a few more bars in.
Who would expect the two versions to sound identical, or the 'real' Neves to sound worse?
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Post by ragan on May 13, 2017 15:47:05 GMT -6
ragan That's all you got out of my post? Did you see the ( joking ) or the shocked laughing hysterically faces ( 😫😂 ) I make great records with my setup. I also added how I went with Apollo over Avid and Apogee. I have been looking at new monitors and DAC.. I was asking what you monitor on! No I don't take what anyone else had to say about the Apollo as gospel 😀 What makes their ears or opinion more verified/ qualified than mine? I respect all opinions and wouldn't ask if I was seeking knowledge/ people's experience I wanted to see what RGO members use for monitoring and DAC because I feel that may have a direct result on their feedback drbill thanks definitely a way more refined CR than I monitor from! I am adding more bass traps and a few more panels for flutters/ first reflections as well as looking at Barefoot Monitors.. Would hate to not like great monitors because my DAC is artificially coloring what I hear... any thoughts Gotcha, ok. It wasn't just that post. You have many posts in many threads wth a kind of "ok guys, you're right, Apollo is crap, sure" kind of vibe and I never know what you're responding to. The Apollo is a well liked piece of gear here and elsewhere. For your other question, I'm in a small room I built and treated myself. Symphony MKII DAC --> Dynaudio BM5a MKII.
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 13, 2017 15:55:32 GMT -6
ragan That's all you got out of my post? Did you see the ( joking ) or the shocked laughing hysterically faces ( 😫😂 ) I make great records with my setup. I also added how I went with Apollo over Avid and Apogee. I have been looking at new monitors and DAC.. I was asking what you monitor on! No I don't take what anyone else had to say about the Apollo as gospel 😀 What makes their ears or opinion more verified/ qualified than mine? I respect all opinions and wouldn't ask if I was seeking knowledge/ people's experience I wanted to see what RGO members use for monitoring and DAC because I feel that may have a direct result on their feedback drbill thanks definitely a way more refined CR than I monitor from! I am adding more bass traps and a few more panels for flutters/ first reflections as well as looking at Barefoot Monitors.. Would hate to not like great monitors because my DAC is artificially coloring what I hear... any thoughts Gotcha, ok. It wasn't just that post. You have many posts in many threads wth a kind of "ok guys, you're right, Apollo is crap, sure" kind of vibe and I never know what you're responding to. The Apollo is a well liked piece of gear here and elsewhere. For your other question, I'm in a small room I built and treated myself. Symphony MKII DAC --> Dynaudio BM5a MKII. Ya I mostly say that as a joke, but since I have said it a lot it probably come off as me having an agenda, however I really don't , and I apologize for that. I agree and think the Apollo is more than capable and trained ears know how to work around its shortcomings! Yes it does have a few 😀 How did your monitors change when you changed DAC from Apollo ( if you used Apollo for DAC , maybe u had the DBox?) I want to make the best sounding music I can without Going financially insane, however I am at the point where I feel it's time to upgrade. Idk Avid and Symph mk1's are probably long in the tooth now, so maybe I should do Monitors then conversion... Thanks
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Post by kcatthedog on May 13, 2017 15:56:20 GMT -6
They ran 2 8p's and split the signal before so the real neve is without unison (which by the way only loads the same impedance as the real to the on board ic pre before conversion), then the software emulation of the plug in kicks in,
So, with the ob example you are hearing the stock apollo AD and DA , no unison impedance loading with real hi end outboard.
With the apollo combo jacks you can by pass the on board pre completely so the real neve pre went direct to apollo converters.
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Post by drsax on May 13, 2017 16:20:18 GMT -6
I think I recall from the video they had two Apollo units so they had enough Unison mic channels. You notice the change on the first switch to Apollo from real, but if you didn't see the graphic, would you have looked up and said, "Heyy, what happened?" Maybe a few more bars in. Who would expect the two versions to sound identical, or the 'real' Neves to sound worse? Blindfolded I would hear the difference instantly. To me it's a clear difference. I love my Apollo, think very highly of it, but my hardware still rules.
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Post by drsax on May 13, 2017 16:25:54 GMT -6
Hardware sounds better in every regard to me. But, It's still amazing what a single apollo can do for the $$$. Ok you say this and I thought about it some too and here is what I would like to hear. I would like to hear the Apollo preamps direct WITHOUT the dumb damaging coloring box unison plugin I bet I would like it! I like the way the Apollo sounds with and without unison plugs, and I like the way it sounds in this video, but the Hardware does what only hardware can do. The open, effortless, depth is something I've not experienced from plugin EQ's or comps in the same way that hardware does
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Post by javamad on May 13, 2017 16:45:42 GMT -6
Wow. I had listened on earbuds at work when this came thread out and the differences I perceived then were subtle .. I have just listened on my A7X, in my living room ('cos I am in studio build mode) and I heard a huge difference. There is something in the mid/high mid area in the UAD that seems to go back into the mix and in the real Neve it just pops out.
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Post by drbill on May 13, 2017 17:16:10 GMT -6
I want to make the best sounding music I can without Going financially insane, Once you take a step over the mediocracy line towards a more high-end sonic palate, the water gets very deep and very cold very quickly. Brace for it. You're already up to your knees.....
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Post by mrholmes on May 13, 2017 17:17:52 GMT -6
I don't say that X or Y is better there is no way to make a general statement about it when listening to a whole song. Close your eyes while listening and some of the big differences you hear will disappear.
Differences are easier to hear if you loop the same snippet a few times.
As an owner of a real 1073 I just can say that I prefer the hardware most of the time but that is subjective too and not uncolored form psychology I think I still love tweaking real knobs.
I didn't buy the UAD plug in because Kushs take on the subject 1073 was way more real sounding to my ears.
Its impressive what someone can do with modern plug ins. In tracking I still like hardware because I made the experience that the mix is easier to do.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 13, 2017 17:54:53 GMT -6
I'm always interested in people's definition of "major difference." It makes me laugh. I hear a difference. I just take into account the price/result ratio and it makes no sense. 90% of the population doesn't give a flying shit. I guess I'm just sold on hybrid mixing and see the value of some of the cheaper stuff.
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Post by mrholmes on May 13, 2017 18:29:07 GMT -6
I'm always interested in people's definition of "major difference." It makes me laugh. I hear a difference. I just take into account the price/result ratio and it makes no sense. 90% of the population doesn't give a flying shit. I guess I'm just sold on hybrid mixing and see the value of some of the cheaper stuff. I always said that best of both worlds is fine to me. There is no way to discuss it in an objective way. People have different ears, different expectations, different monitoring (maybe awful) situations and different grades of experience in AE. I just can tell you why I don't like a mix and I can tell you how I would fix it with the gear I have. I don't exclude that a kid comes along with logic or cubase etc. and is just doing a great job. What I just can see that we too often are fixed on the gear topic, we should talk more about the AE part because everybody can learn form this.
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Post by wiz on May 13, 2017 18:48:51 GMT -6
There are places in that video, that with my eyes shut I didn't notice. There are a couple of places its quite noticeable... but its a "change"
If I were to walk in cold on either of those mixes, without hearing the other... there might (would) be a thing or two I would change... but I wouldnt think I need to re track the song in anyway shape or form.
Now, the physical act of recording either of those two version, hardware ... knobs faders etc.. might make the process easier for me than trying to do it with a mouse...and the inverse will be true for someone else.... but both outcomes are really good, valid and extremely professional sounding audio result wise.
When you consider, that I have paid more for way less performing gear than the apollo and its plugs cost (tascam 688 when it first came out) and the sonic result is even in the same ball park against the hardware neve gear... its astounding....
Just astounding...
The gap between hardware and software has closed more than I thought it would at a price point that is remarkable....
cheers
Wiz
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 13, 2017 21:23:30 GMT -6
drbillI agree whole heartedly, Ideally I would want two Aurora Audio gtp8 into 8 channels of Eq and eight channels of comp for tracking the obviously have it all patch able and access it for mixing.. Would Add either a motu 16a or an avid HD I/o for this and more HW inserts in PT... Then grab 2 weight tanks, a CL1B, 2 more 76's, Api2500, la3A, and rs124 or maybe diode bridge then Eq'slike a great river nv2eq, Aurora Audio gt4-2, 2 -4 pulse techniques Mastering and Regular 😱🤤 ok I think I drowned already 😱😫🤣 Even using my Warm Audio and Stam Audio units I hear enough of a difference that makes me appreciate the subtleties even more. Like JK said 85% of this is not a night and day difference, and we all know how much that extra 10% can cost... I love using clip gain and using the wa76 as a HW insert knocking about 20db off and using the WA76 input and output as an interplay to get the sound/ compression/ color/ balance I want. Using the output for the gain can make things sound great providing the audio was recorded properly... If I use to much subtractive clip gain then the wa76 input almost has to be cranked to compress and then when you add nor make up gain it amplifies the noise with it... Great thread guys
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Post by drbill on May 13, 2017 21:48:37 GMT -6
When you produce / Mix / Write for yourself instead of for clients only, it's the little things that bring the fulfillment and the joy. We do this to please ourselves. Right?!?! Otherwise we'd all be using MXL mics and plugins. The bottom line is - if it inspires you, even if it's only 15% better, it's worth it's weight in gold. OK...forget gold, maybe worth it's weight in transformers. If a piece of gear makes you mix 50% better because you're inspired by looking at it's blinking lights and touching it's knobs - even if the plugin is 1000 % identical - then there's a viable argument that it (the blinky light hardware) SOUNDS 50% better. If you have to use the plugin - and it is 1000% identical - but you pine for the hardware, and then you're bored and frustrated and can only make the mix 50% as good as if you were inspired, then there's a viable argument that the plugin sounds 50% worse than the hardware. Now....specs may say otherwise to both, but the mix tells the reality. If it inspires you, it's worth the effort / money / space / hassle. If you can separate yourself from inspiration and the muse....well, good for you. But in a way, I'm very sorry for you. Am I communicating effectively? Can you catch my drift? This music thing is all about art. It's not about specs, ABX tests or "almost as good, for the money". It's ALL about inspiration. If hardware brings you the inspiration, you'd better start saving..... Just ask any singer that's saved up for a vintage 47, or any guitarist that's found his dream 59 Les Paul right after receiving an inheritance. Do you think they would perform the same on their MXL Genesis or Epiphone?
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 13, 2017 22:36:46 GMT -6
drbill Yes I definitely pick up what knowledge / experience you are dropping. For someone like me who can barely stay booked up with Beat leases, 2 trk Vocal mixes and masters ( to make $, while focusing on artist 😎) It takes forever to save for the gear I need much less what I want.. However when I do get that gear ( like the singer with the vintage 47 ) I am inspired and motivated... So far this has lasted five years with my current setup ( HW added later on ) and I am still inspired every day when I do what I love.. I am working on improving the room and monitoring first... Do you use a pair of outputs off of one of your HD I/ O's or do you have a dedicated DAC like a crane song avocet / Dbox ? I know you mentioned you Monitors... Hoping Barefoot monitors will negate the need for DAC however my guy makes me feel I will want a higher quality DAC for monitoring...
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Post by mrholmes on May 14, 2017 3:10:10 GMT -6
When you produce / Mix / Write for yourself instead of for clients only, it's the little things that bring the fulfillment and the joy. We do this to please ourselves. Right?!?! Otherwise we'd all be using MXL mics and plugins. The bottom line is - if it inspires you, even if it's only 15% better, it's worth it's weight in gold. OK...forget gold, maybe worth it's weight in transformers. If a piece of gear makes you mix 50% better because you're inspired by looking at it's blinking lights and touching it's knobs - even if the plugin is 1000 % identical - then there's a viable argument that it (the blinky light hardware) SOUNDS 50% better. If you have to use the plugin - and it is 1000% identical - but you pine for the hardware, and then you're bored and frustrated and can only make the mix 50% as good as if you were inspired, then there's a viable argument that the plugin sounds 50% worse than the hardware. Now....specs may say otherwise to both, but the mix tells the reality. If it inspires you, it's worth the effort / money / space / hassle. If you can separate yourself from inspiration and the muse....well, good for you. But in a way, I'm very sorry for you. Am I communicating effectively? Can you catch my drift? This music thing is all about art. It's not about specs, ABX tests or "almost as good, for the money". It's ALL about inspiration. If hardware brings you the inspiration, you'd better start saving..... Just ask any singer that's saved up for a vintage 47, or any guitarist that's found his dream 59 Les Paul right after receiving an inheritance. Do you think they would perform the same on their MXL Genesis or Epiphone? I agree with nearly everything, wise words drbill. I made the observation that the combination of plugs and hardware bring me joy. My guesswork is that some plug ins react very diffrent if the source signal has seen some real gear in tracking. I always try to improve my workflow, in the best case its no thinking at all, one flow from the idea of the music to the sound of the mix. Not using to many diffrent tools helps a lot, because that is what I need to know from my instict. Hardware helps because its just there no clicking, patching feels more like a prayer. Same is true for sounds. Just a few of us can handle a big librarys of sounds...I did try, but I am too much one of those hand made guitar players. I guess thats gods plan for me (write a song). The part with brands. I disagree a little just last week I helped a friend with a guitar solo in one of his film compositions. I was just on stop and he just owns a cheap but well set up/sounding chineese telecaster. It was one of my best lines ever, and we both where happy. Gear that works does not need to have a big brand or needs to be expensive. Its true that some brands do one thing very very good....Martin Guitars for example. In the end we need to create something that touches the listener. If we fail there its not worth any expensive gear. Today we live in blessed times. If you dont have much money its not stoping you from beeing creative with music. Speaking the language of souls.
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