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Post by Johnkenn on May 11, 2017 20:15:06 GMT -6
No - just through the dbox. I always have the VP28s in the path...but wanted to just hear if the summing was doing anything. I'll run the summed pass through the 28s and post. Then I'll post the snippet of the finished product. Honestly, I'm pretty damn happy with the sounds I'm getting...but there's always the little voice saying, "it could be even better..." Add some mic preamps inline from the DAC to the dbox! Crank dem joints, turn some damn knobs! Thanks -L. Really wish I had a rack of 8 VP28s or well, 8 of anything. But that would only take 609,758,098 streams...
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Post by Johnkenn on May 11, 2017 20:32:00 GMT -6
That would actually be like a console. 8 VP28s in line to the d-box then print. (I could drive each stem to whatever I wanted...) Then 2 Bus print into say - a pair of Chromas into a Zulu...Sigh...not enough money in the world. Then...if I only had 16 channels...
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on May 11, 2017 20:32:39 GMT -6
Add some mic preamps inline from the DAC to the dbox! Crank dem joints, turn some damn knobs! Thanks -L. Really wish I had a rack of 8 VP28s or well, 8 of anything. But that would only take 609,758,098 streams... So I need to put my playlist of JK compositions on repeat at night?
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Post by Johnkenn on May 11, 2017 20:34:57 GMT -6
Really wish I had a rack of 8 VP28s or well, 8 of anything. But that would only take 609,758,098 streams... So I need to put my playlist of JK compositions on repeat at night? Yes
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on May 11, 2017 20:39:46 GMT -6
So I need to put my playlist of JK compositions on repeat at night? Yes So mute will help the $ and not hurt the ego? Hey you got a wife and kid if they are not using those devices Dad's stuff on Repeat and Mute Your playin in the Background Muted! 😎
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Post by Johnkenn on May 11, 2017 20:46:15 GMT -6
Actually, just send me $5...that would be a lot more money than I would make and save your ears from 40 days of repeat.
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Post by noah shain on May 11, 2017 22:36:22 GMT -6
As we speak @johnkenn I have 72 outs from pro tools running in to about 60 line amps of varying brands and topologies, all being summed by different methods into busses, which are summed into a really f**king expensive summing unit which I paid a fortune for and then paid another fortune to mod to the teeth and now I'm spending my idle moments on the Purple Audio website looking at the MFtwenty5 system and Sweet 10 racks with Moin summing busses and blah blah blah blah BLAH....
I started with a D-Box.
There's more to summing than just summing.
I feel your pain.
What a terrible business idea this all is😖
And it's noisy as hell and impossible to recall and always needs maintainance and I LOVE it.
@johnkenn I am your father...come to the dark side.
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Post by donr on May 11, 2017 23:05:14 GMT -6
Your stuff sounds great Noah. Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
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Post by jeromemason on May 12, 2017 0:40:05 GMT -6
I chose summing more often than not in abx, but damn close. I usually listen for separation in the cymbals and the tails on the verbs.... honestly either would be fine. I think if you're looking for more of the "vibe" you need to add more in the buss chain, not so much adding more stems into a summing mixer. I had to come to that realization when I blew my own mind on an abx when I was running the BLA PM8's. I've found more value and getting me that sound from good conversion, clocking and not being afraid to heat that buss up. When I put those DIYRE pultecs in I really loved how just the DOA's and trannies in those gave me more vibe, even with no lift or cut, just running through the circuit.
I really want to try those Chroma's when they hit the street, I have a good feeling there.
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Post by mrholmes on May 12, 2017 3:51:01 GMT -6
Because of drbill I quit the mixer and hooked up the Vintage Design 1073 on the 2 bus and that sounds as good, if not better, as using the board. Next step was a patchbay and inserting all the HW with I/O plug in in the DAW. Sometimes a few tracks get batched processed with 1073 or other gear, I could not be hapier, because this setup suits my workflow. If I where in Johns postion try mixing straight into the VPs if you like that maybe bills tone amp is the better investment.
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Post by bartacusad on May 12, 2017 6:05:04 GMT -6
Where do you get a Silver Bullet plugin?
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Post by BradM on May 12, 2017 9:26:30 GMT -6
Just to add really quickly. Imagine distance miking (a far room mic, high up) even something like a drum kit with a ribbon mic. If you need to get to almost the end of the scale of the preamp's gain potential before you get a usable level then how would you accomplish character at that stage? The answer is your character is going the noise or the lack thereof. Take that same mic and place it in front of the kit maybe a foot away. The same gain settings would be overloading the mic preamp. That's the difference to how I perceive a summing mixer feeding a mic preamp versus the output of a single DAC running full scale feeding a mic preamp. Ones going to be doing loads of color or distortion or both and one will just be giving you gain with next to no hope for color unless there's some extra circuitry there designed to create distortion or character. Thanks -L. Define color. What that means to people can take on so many forms. I feel that lots of gear imparts "color" regardless of the level I send to it. Or sounds different even at conservative levels. It's not always necessary to be jamming level into our gear to have it do musically tasteful things. Distortion is a sonic fad just like gated reverbs and Yamaha DX7's. Brad
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Post by BradM on May 12, 2017 9:28:16 GMT -6
As we speak @johnkenn I have 72 outs from pro tools running in to about 60 line amps of varying brands and topologies, all being summed by different methods into busses, which are summed into a really f**king expensive summing unit which I paid a fortune for and then paid another fortune to mod to the teeth and now I'm spending my idle moments on the Purple Audio website looking at the MFtwenty5 system and Sweet 10 racks with Moin summing busses and blah blah blah blah BLAH.... This man knows how to rock a summing setup properly! Brad
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Post by Johnkenn on May 12, 2017 11:40:39 GMT -6
So all I need now is 8 new mic pres that sit there just for this purpose (and another 11 channel rack.) Run 2 channels at a time out of the Apollo into the patchbay into the pres in line mode...label these as "drums" "guitars" "vox" etc...then I can drive them separately...into a new Zulu then into the summing unit to be printed to a 2 channel mix. Then take that print, apply mastering and go out to a pair of pres for final print.
That's a lot. Of money and time...Sure would like to try it to find out if I want to go to that much trouble.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 12, 2017 11:43:26 GMT -6
And then complain because it's only 8 channels...and then sell my Apollo and D-Box for another 16 channel interface and another summing mixer. Oh, and I need a new DA because I was using my Dbox for DA...Just don't know if I can justify the expense. Unfortunately, quality doesn't always translate into business in this business. Relationships seem to win the day. I'm going to go drink.
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Post by illacov on May 12, 2017 12:10:37 GMT -6
Just to add really quickly. Imagine distance miking (a far room mic, high up) even something like a drum kit with a ribbon mic. If you need to get to almost the end of the scale of the preamp's gain potential before you get a usable level then how would you accomplish character at that stage? The answer is your character is going the noise or the lack thereof. Take that same mic and place it in front of the kit maybe a foot away. The same gain settings would be overloading the mic preamp. That's the difference to how I perceive a summing mixer feeding a mic preamp versus the output of a single DAC running full scale feeding a mic preamp. Ones going to be doing loads of color or distortion or both and one will just be giving you gain with next to no hope for color unless there's some extra circuitry there designed to create distortion or character. Thanks -L. Define color. What that means to people can take on so many forms. I feel that lots of gear imparts "color" regardless of the level I send to it. Or sounds different even at conservative levels. It's not always necessary to be jamming level into our gear to have it do musically tasteful things. Distortion is a sonic fad just like gated reverbs and Yamaha DX7's. Brad A 57 on snare into a Scully 280 vs a Neve 1073 or a Dukane 2A75 will all have different artifacts that you can highlight as the colors of these pieces of gear. As with all mic preamp there's a limit to how great they are at boosting before you're just amplifying noise. With any color you seek there's a sweet spot to gear, sometimes it doesn't require massive gain and sometimes it does. This is like comparing Kung Fu techniques, Crane vs Tiger. Everybody has differing approaches and opinions. My definition of color will be inadequate or irrelevant to you or somebody else. But in context with controlled parameters? Using a mic preamp to make up 45 db or so of gain with a passive summing mixer is not a way you'd normally incur any real "color." Not the obvious stuff. The sales pitch (part of it) for a passive summing mixer is that your mic preamp(s) is the source of color and you switch to get those colors. The output of a summing mixer isn't what I'd call the most robust level you'd send into a mic preamp if you're seeking some major difference. Color may include saturation or distortion as well. An under driven mic preamp typically won't accomplish that. This is what I was referring to. In general this ain't the way to go. How is distortion a sonic fad? Les Paul and Chuck Berry are rolling in their graves. LOL Thanks -L.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 12, 2017 12:38:27 GMT -6
I have one. Mentioned it in the post you quoted
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Post by ChaseUTB on May 12, 2017 12:43:44 GMT -6
I have one. Mentioned it in the post you quoted Deleted and edited I apologize😀 You may find Mastering ITB ( adding rms compression and limiting itb ) a breeze and sounds wonderful after performing summing and analog make up gain during the mixing process with your summing makeup gain setup 👍
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Post by swurveman on May 12, 2017 16:42:57 GMT -6
So all I need now is 8 new mic pres that sit there just for this purpose (and another 11 channel rack.) Run 2 channels at a time out of the Apollo into the patchbay into the pres in line mode...label these as "drums" "guitars" "vox" etc...then I can drive them separately...into a new Zulu then into the summing unit to be printed to a 2 channel mix. Then take that print, apply mastering and go out to a pair of pres for final print. That's a lot. Of money and time...Sure would like to try it to find out if I want to go to that much trouble. Makes me pine for an analog console/router/mixer whatever that has channel inputs from the DAW that have the properties of preamps without EQ -with no inputs for tracking -that go to a master bus for processing and then a/d back into the DAW for print. Seems much simpler and I'm not sure why somebody hasn't done this. Seems like so many people have the front end they desire but not the back end.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 12, 2017 16:49:17 GMT -6
So all I need now is 8 new mic pres that sit there just for this purpose (and another 11 channel rack.) Run 2 channels at a time out of the Apollo into the patchbay into the pres in line mode...label these as "drums" "guitars" "vox" etc...then I can drive them separately...into a new Zulu then into the summing unit to be printed to a 2 channel mix. Then take that print, apply mastering and go out to a pair of pres for final print. That's a lot. Of money and time...Sure would like to try it to find out if I want to go to that much trouble. Makes me pine for an analog console/router/mixer whatever that has channel inputs from the DAW that have the properties of preamps without EQ -with no inputs for tracking -that go to a master bus for processing and then a/d back into the DAW for print. Seems much simpler and I'm not sure why somebody hasn't done this. Seems like so many people have the front end they desire but not the back end. A little bird told me that there might be a plan for just that - an 8 channel summing unit with transformers and opamps on every channel. Then a master two bus.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 12, 2017 16:52:25 GMT -6
So all I need now is 8 new mic pres that sit there just for this purpose (and another 11 channel rack.) Run 2 channels at a time out of the Apollo into the patchbay into the pres in line mode...label these as "drums" "guitars" "vox" etc...then I can drive them separately...into a new Zulu then into the summing unit to be printed to a 2 channel mix. Then take that print, apply mastering and go out to a pair of pres for final print. That's a lot. Of money and time...Sure would like to try it to find out if I want to go to that much trouble. Makes me pine for an analog console/router/mixer whatever that has channel inputs from the DAW that have the properties of preamps without EQ -with no inputs for tracking -that go to a master bus for processing and then a/d back into the DAW for print. Seems much simpler and I'm not sure why somebody hasn't done this. Seems like so many people have the front end they desire but not the back end. vintageking.com/speck-lilo-mixer-24-channel-frame-w-16-input-modules
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Post by swurveman on May 12, 2017 17:03:22 GMT -6
Makes me pine for an analog console/router/mixer whatever that has channel inputs from the DAW that have the properties of preamps without EQ -with no inputs for tracking -that go to a master bus for processing and then a/d back into the DAW for print. Seems much simpler and I'm not sure why somebody hasn't done this. Seems like so many people have the front end they desire but not the back end. vintageking.com/speck-lilo-mixer-24-channel-frame-w-16-input-modulesI should have used the word "affordable". This has been out there for awhile and it doesn't seem like there's a great demand due to the price point. I could be wrong. Anybody know?
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Post by Johnkenn on May 12, 2017 17:08:11 GMT -6
This one would be very affordable.
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Post by noah shain on May 12, 2017 17:12:53 GMT -6
Makes me pine for an analog console/router/mixer whatever that has channel inputs from the DAW that have the properties of preamps without EQ -with no inputs for tracking -that go to a master bus for processing and then a/d back into the DAW for print. Seems much simpler and I'm not sure why somebody hasn't done this. Seems like so many people have the front end they desire but not the back end. A little bird told me that there might be a plan for just that - an 8 channel summing unit with transformers and opamps on every channel. Then a master two bus. Get outta here!!!! Im sure I can guess what you're talking about and god damn if I'm right.... Mmmm!! Well there's also these: www.recordingwithgas.com/GAS_Sigma_500.htmlOf which I have two I don't use anymore. I'll sell em to you. Actually gonna get them up in the classifieds. Unless you want em
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on May 12, 2017 17:31:55 GMT -6
And then complain because it's only 8 channels...and then sell my Apollo and D-Box for another 16 channel interface and another summing mixer. Oh, and I need a new DA because I was using my Dbox for DA...Just don't know if I can justify the expense. Unfortunately, quality doesn't always translate into business in this business. Relationships seem to win the day. I'm going to go drink. Just get a board ! All that analog yummieness !
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