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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 18, 2017 22:08:49 GMT -6
Thanks Dave, as usual, that was a fun read.
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Post by subspace on Apr 19, 2017 8:18:25 GMT -6
In that price range, I found the best new board for me was the Audient ASP2802. This was before Focusrite licensed it and renamed it the Control 2802. I suppose an 8 channel in-line board was an easier sell to me since I was also keeping my old board. The best used board for me in that price range was the Trident Trimix. I bought a pair of 24 module buckets fitted out in a 32x8x16 configuration in 2001, which included outboard patchbays and looms. I eventually decided to use just one frame in a 16x8 configuration due to mixing hybrid, which led to the addition of the Audient Dual Layer Control board. I sold the spare 16x8 to another engineer raised recording rock through Series 80 EQs. I was doing a simple acoustic guitar and vocal session this weekend and tracked it using the Audient preamps through A-Designs Nail compression. For the reference mixes, I just used the DAW control layer to ride levels/effects sends and returned the DAW mix to the Audient for a touch of it's bus compressor. Flipping back and forth from the analog layer to the DAW layer becomes second nature quickly, and having the DAW sends on an automated fader layer really expands your hybrid mixing options. I have another client that tracks the full band live through the Trident straight to 2-track. This is how I started in the studio and I still love plugging 16 mics into the desk, tweaking the eq, patching in some dynamics and effects, then riding the faders through the takes. DAW/hybrid mixing offers a world of options but I feel like my touchstone as a mixer remains those live to 2 track sessions.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 19, 2017 8:38:22 GMT -6
Looks sweet and nicely put together subspace.
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Post by rocinante on Apr 19, 2017 9:18:23 GMT -6
Dave thank you, that stuff is really interesting and i love hearing the various histories of consoles like the ones you worked on. Plus your description and knowledge is for lack of a better word; awesome. Consoles hold such history and it follows them like an infamous pirate ship. In the only facility i worked at we had a a Trident 80b and it was my first large console. Looking back and after having used a AWS, a 2408, and several Neve's to include just a few, that console was just massive sounding. Nothing like the 8078 I had the pleasure of using twice but still a great console. I had a mackie at home that i used for my live sound gigs but it was like a recorder compared to a bagpipe, or a yugo compared to a Ferrari. We had techs and at that time i knew very little about repair and design. I need to just eat it and buy some Capi so i can finally finish the modifications and improve my Ghost master section. Thanks again for the great history lesson.
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Post by scumbum on Apr 19, 2017 16:58:54 GMT -6
I think the Trident A-range was used to track Metallica's 2 albums , ride the lightning and Master of Puppets .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 19, 2017 16:59:55 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Apr 19, 2017 17:15:33 GMT -6
Alexis X2. Inline, CAPS EQ, 175khz bandwidth, modular channel strips, 24/8/2. I haven't even thought about one of those units for a long long time. You can get one for under a grand now, if you can find one. In today's age of all external preamps and HUIs the main function for a console is probably monitoring and headphone sends, and having one setup so you get greater tracking efficiency. So, do you see a diamond in the rough here? Is there new life for an old Alesis and similar units? svart, you are a smart feller, so your opinion would be valued and appreciated.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 19, 2017 17:26:33 GMT -6
The EX is the Rolls Royce of live boards , the console of the later Dead tours , used high performance caps and other parts. The monitor version had weird routing . The later Consoles are more like an SSL Sigma, digital control of analog signal prosessing, no real control surface. Would not buy a Gamble without documentation or a gutsy tech!
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Post by rocinante on Apr 19, 2017 17:37:00 GMT -6
That gamble website is something else. I was waiting to hear my dial up modem try to reconnect.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 19, 2017 18:41:46 GMT -6
That gamble website is something else. I was waiting to hear my dial up modem try to reconnect. I think it's still the original website!
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Post by svart on Apr 19, 2017 20:03:16 GMT -6
Alexis X2. Inline, CAPS EQ, 175khz bandwidth, modular channel strips, 24/8/2. I haven't even thought about one of those units for a long long time. You can get one for under a grand now, if you can find one. In today's age of all external preamps and HUIs the main function for a console is probably monitoring and headphone sends, and having one setup so you get greater tracking efficiency. So, do you see a diamond in the rough here? Is there new life for an old Alesis and similar units? svart , you are a smart feller, so your opinion would be valued and appreciated. More like a fart smeller. But in any case, I think if someone were going to put time and money into a "cheap" console (and the work that goes into the upkeep) I think the X2 is a step above most of the others in terms of what it offers. I recently bought a whole one for 200$ to keep as my spare. I also do not use the internal preamps on mine for the most part, but I don't find them to be terrible in the least. They are simply boring, but totally usable. I spent a couple years using only the board to make mixes. I still listen back and find that it was a solid sound, just lacking mojo you get from fancy pants preamps. It's not without issues though. Some batches had marginal quality 9mm conductive plastic mid-EQ pots that would physically come apart over time. I actually figured out how to fix them and put the info online, because they are impossible to get other than from spare channels. The power supply is extremely well designed electrically, but implementation is a little lacking. A number of the supplies I've fixed have had solder joints broken. Either the transformer comes loose, or some resistors get hot and eventually the solder cracks. The channel PCB traces are very low weight copper, and the through-holes are not plated, so repeated soldering and handling can destroy the traces rather easily. Various connectors in the unit will tarnish heavily and become high-resistance before heating up and eventually arcing/burning. Replacement of the power connectors and plugs is pretty much a mandatory exercise. Doing this right here fixes about half of the "reliability issues" that folks see such as the meter bridge going wonky, audio cutting out, distortion and the sub bussing going strange. All the 16mm pots will eventually dry up and become stiff. Some will go scratchy and/or cut out. Deoxit Fader spray fixes all those ills. Early channels had really cheap quality caps that will have dried up by now. Later channels came with Nichicon brand caps that seemed to hold up ok. The board reacts well to recapping with Nichicon ES bipolar caps (bipolar 'lytic caps will have lower distortion than polar 'lytics in unbiased applications). Once you do all this stuff, the board should last a long time without issue.
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Post by scumbum on Apr 20, 2017 12:28:26 GMT -6
The EX is the Rolls Royce of live boards , the console of the later Dead tours , used high performance caps and other parts. The monitor version had weird routing . The later Consoles are more like an SSL Sigma, digital control of analog signal prosessing, no real control surface. Would not buy a Gamble without documentation or a gutsy tech! Primus used a Gamble to record Pork Soda so I've always wanted one . But it seems they might be a money pit nowadays !! The mic pres are what I'm after .
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 20, 2017 16:03:06 GMT -6
The EX is the Rolls Royce of live boards , the console of the later Dead tours , used high performance caps and other parts. The monitor version had weird routing . The later Consoles are more like an SSL Sigma, digital control of analog signal prosessing, no real control surface. Would not buy a Gamble without documentation or a gutsy tech! Primus used a Gamble to record Pork Soda so I've always wanted one . But it seems they might be a money pit nowadays !! The mic pres are what I'm after . Funny enough the only time I ever used a Gamble was a show with 12 crappy Sampson Wireless with generic vocal capsules and backing tracks so I didn't really get to see if the pres lived up to the hype, plus it was the monitor version so I was busy trying to wrap my head around it!
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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 20, 2017 16:46:04 GMT -6
Hi Guys, as it turns out a old friend of mine is determined to get a analogue console for his studio so we have been going through all those that are available and I have been giving him all the options and pitfalls of his current choices.
I will share this with you in the next couple of day. He sent me a list of about 10 potential consoles including 3 different Studers, an 2-MCI, 1-AMEK, broadcast Neve and a old Soundcraft Mark II which I believe I owned in the 70's.
I think the only think worth keeping with the Soundcraft would be the P&G full throw faders.
In haste, here today as our good friend Joseph Magee called and he is flying to Vancouver to re-cut vocals for the My Little Pony Movies at Bryan Adam's warehouse studios. He couldn't bring his MT8016 preamp with him and he used in on all the previous vocals.
He asked me to send him one down to Vancouver so the vocal sound will match. So, I must run and get one ready to ship so he has it for the session on Monday.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 25, 2017 9:14:16 GMT -6
I'm looking forward to hearing more about your friend's choice Dave.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 25, 2017 18:16:03 GMT -6
That gamble website is something else. I was waiting to hear my dial up modem try to reconnect. Manley's website also used to look like that, several years back... I will never forget that. The price tags, the esoteric gear, the '90s HTML website. Good times.
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Post by aamicrophones on May 17, 2017 20:34:12 GMT -6
Hello, we just finished moving our shipping, assembly and storage to a new location just a few minutes away. I now have time to get back to this thread on looking for an affordable mixing console.
I have been looking for a small console for a friend who had about $5K USD to spend. I found him a Studer 962, 12-Channel console for $6K CDN plus his vintage Fender Vibrolux guitar amp.
The Studer is on casters and can be moved around the control room. So, its a good place to start and has lovely sounding preamps, simple but musical EQ The channel bussing is unbalanced but extremely low impedance.
All line inputs, inserts and outputs are balanced. It has 4-busses and 2-aux sends.
Large consoles like Neve's, Ward Beck, Sony MXP3036 or the AMEK Mozart or Hendrix cannot be move by one person. To move my Sony with the modules out and the VU penthouse removed takes to large piano movers or 4-average musicians.
I also have a friend selling a 32X16x4 - Ward Beck console for about $6500 USD but it needs to be completely refurbished ( re-capped, re-configured and all the switches/pots cleaned or replaced).
The Ward Beck has 4-M466 compressors in the board plus another 32 channels/2 buss monitor panel that has transformer coupled microphone /line inputs. However, this console is so large and heavy that the 32x16x4 comes in 3-sections.
I will also go through the reasoning why I bought a Sony MXP3036 console. One is I am completely uncomfortable mixing in the box. I spent 35 years of my life pushing analogue faders or analogue pots. However, there are some plug-ins that I do like to use.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Quint on May 18, 2017 20:21:41 GMT -6
I own a 1973 MCI 416b. It's been undergoing a SLOW refurbishing and I'm in the process of implementing some mods that have been discussed on the MCI forum.
I'm not necessarily saying that one should buy one of these, if for no other reason than that they're hard to find and that they definitely require some work. I spent a LOT of time just converting all of the punchdown blocks to Elco and xlr.
That being said, they definitely have a vibe and are pretty easy to work on, given their modular design and simple circuits. MUCH easier to work on than the MCI 500 series.
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Post by svart on Jun 29, 2017 11:34:13 GMT -6
I recently had the "pleasure" of working on a mix on a Ghost.
It's been probably 15 years since I mixed on one and had forgotten the sound, so it was a bit of a eye-opening experience to work on one again after so much time.
Thin, mushy, muddy, shrill.. All words I would use.
Luckily we tracked direct through external gear so the tracks themselves were clean. We had more overdubs to do and it was easier to bring the tracks back to my place to finish mixing. Much, much better results through the X2.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 29, 2017 14:47:38 GMT -6
That's really interesting svart. Cowboycoalminer uses a modded Ghost and I know there are a few guys here who recommend modding Ghosts or Delta's. If the X2 really sounds better, than it's a steal, I think..
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 29, 2017 17:34:54 GMT -6
That's really interesting svart. Cowboycoalminer uses a modded Ghost and I know there are a few guys here who recommend modding Ghosts or Delta's. If the X2 really sounds better, than it's a steal, I think.. Martin here's the problem with console recommendations, very , very few have multiple experiences with a particular brand and model with an understanding of the history of said console. I would expect a unmodded 25 year old budget or for that matter even a 25 year old highend console to need a recap! The Ghost was one of the Mackie Killers , I haven't heard a well kept one in good shape sound mushy I have used about 10 not counting the demo consoles we had which would add another 4 or so. A good working X2 would sound better in most regards but you better have a Tech or Chris's skills to make and keep it going ! A Creation Audio Modded Ghost will run with an X2, but you won't need a Tech as much to keep it that way! Of course a X2 should sound better and be more reliable than a Ghost it cost more than a New Ghost plus mods would cost you! I wouldn't sell anybody an X2 because I had to many customers who had bought X2's elsewhere and all had problems, but none had the tech skills of Chris ! I wouldn't be so anti X2 for somebody of average tech skills if 1. If I didn't think Chris was one of the smartest techs I know, and understand Chris lives in his world not that of us mortals! 2. Way to many horror stories of the X2! I know to many who were Screwed because of what it took to make these things right and keep them right. Not just my clients but Clients of Sweetwater, GC Westlake, and others. I was at an Alesis Training Session in LA and When they got to the X2 almost everybody had similar stories! It got so bad the Pres. Of Alesis came out and apologized gave us a speech promised to make it right for our specific clients... Well That never happened!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 29, 2017 21:12:57 GMT -6
Good to know, thanks eric.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 29, 2017 21:30:09 GMT -6
Of the 12 people I know who have owned the X2 including SVART only 3 would recommend purchase & they all have the tech skills to keep them up. We were not an Alesis dealer during most of the X2 era, part of the buy in at that time was an X2 and the one we had on static display went for basically cost because of rep they had already built. One client had 2 and bought 2 used to keep them running, they ended up with an O2R and Soundcraft in 2000! So unless you have the tech skills I wouldn't recommend an X2, a tech I know says the 2 he keeps running, one is one of the very last ones built, are on par with early Harrison's as far as upkeep. I will say the frame is one of the most solid you will find! If they think X2 s are upkeep monsters, clearly they've never worked on vintage Neves.. Vintage Neves were designed to be serviced, Alesis, not so much. Actually, The first Alesis mixers werre unserviceable. Stupid stuff like pots constricted as part of the main PC boards. Obvoiusly, they learned quite a bit, but by the time they started getting a handle on things their time was done...
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 29, 2017 21:34:28 GMT -6
Their main rep was as a builder of touring level live reinforcement consoles. Had some corporate connection to Crest amplifiers, IIRC. I believe they got sold off to Peavey, could be mistaken....?
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Post by svart on Jun 30, 2017 9:31:42 GMT -6
If they think X2 s are upkeep monsters, clearly they've never worked on vintage Neves.. Vintage Neves were designed to be serviced, Alesis, not so much. Actually, The first Alesis mixers werre unserviceable. Stupid stuff like pots constricted as part of the main PC boards. Obvoiusly, they learned quite a bit, but by the time they started getting a handle on things their time was done... While the consumer level Alesis stuff was never meant to be serviced.. The vintage neves suffered from all of the issues of their day, namely poorly made and loose tolerance components, heat, too many interconnects, phenolic PCBs, carbon pots, LOTs of wires, etc. The X2 is much less complex, but suffered from being born right as the digital/DAW era took off, rendering them passe'. I think if they were introduced today with a few changes, they'd be a hit.
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