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Post by johneppstein on Apr 10, 2017 6:17:13 GMT -6
It's just that a lot of the way I mix is tactile and auditory. A screen removes that tactile part and replaces it with visuals, which in turn make me have to think instead of just react. I know what you mean but my first decision goes for workflow, workspace and creativity in composing / arranging. I think a console is a creativity killer - at least the one I used was it and I had to change my setup. I am faster with the DAW and some outboard, the sessions can be opened in minutes - if the client wants a change. That is the time I live in and I have to give the market what he wants. Yes I wish it would be the other way round but that is not living in the real world. I had to make a decision between sonics and workflow.That´s why I used Slates VCC in mixing stage in the last 4 months and found that it can sound great if you know how to deal with it. Making a point, a decision is not a bad thing in my book. There are a number of points there that I'd like to explore, but first I have a question that might be key to understanding - what kind of stuff are you doing? I'm getting the idea that you do mostly soundtracks and similar stuff, maybe commercials? |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Apr 10, 2017 6:24:52 GMT -6
As part of my hybrid studio build I am looking at patchbays. Because my summing rig comes with DSUB connections for all the buses and inserts (except frustratingly for the main mix insert), I am looking at TT DSUB models. rupertneve.com/products/5060-centerpiece/#gallery&gid=1&pid=2The thing is that by doing that I am getting into more expensive patchbays and also expensive cables - I am going to get a soldering iron and make up my own instrument and mic cables .. but I would be wary of my skill when it comes to building a DSUB cable. Also looking at the Antelope Orion 32+ for extra channels of I/O and it's all DSUB at the back ... DSUB seems to be everywhere these days. Would anyone have experience with DSUB crimping or soldering? Is it difficult? Any tools you would suggest? How do you maintain cable integrity? (I have some soldering experience but I am wary of the load put on cables being pulled around) Most Dsub are crimped, I have done both Crimping while time consuming is easier to redo if you screw up, but good crimp tools are not cheap ! So you can do Dsub without worry of burning the house down! |
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 10, 2017 13:53:12 GMT -6
I know what you mean but my first decision goes for workflow, workspace and creativity in composing / arranging. I think a console is a creativity killer - at least the one I used was it and I had to change my setup. I am faster with the DAW and some outboard, the sessions can be opened in minutes - if the client wants a change. That is the time I live in and I have to give the market what he wants. Yes I wish it would be the other way round but that is not living in the real world. I had to make a decision between sonics and workflow.That´s why I used Slates VCC in mixing stage in the last 4 months and found that it can sound great if you know how to deal with it. Making a point, a decision is not a bad thing in my book. There are a number of points there that I'd like to explore, but first I have a question that might be key to understanding - what kind of stuff are you doing? I'm getting the idea that you do mostly soundtracks and similar stuff, maybe commercials? To make a long story short... I do write songs for myself for other artists etc. Its the best setup I had in years and I don't hear big difference compared to my console mixes. If you track full bands I can see that a LF console is KING. |
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Post by drbill on Apr 10, 2017 14:13:16 GMT -6
I know what you mean but my first decision goes for workflow, workspace and creativity in composing / arranging. I think a console is a creativity killer - at least the one I used was it and I had to change my setup. I am faster with the DAW and some outboard, the sessions can be opened in minutes - if the client wants a change. That is the time I live in and I have to give the market what he wants. Yes I wish it would be the other way round but that is not living in the real world. I had to make a decision between sonics and workflow.That´s why I used Slates VCC in mixing stage in the last 4 months and found that it can sound great if you know how to deal with it. Making a point, a decision is not a bad thing in my book. There are a number of points there that I'd like to explore, but first I have a question that might be key to understanding - what kind of stuff are you doing? I'm getting the idea that you do mostly soundtracks and similar stuff, maybe commercials? The "soundtracks" that I work on get as much if not more care put into them than the normal album. I don't see what the point is. Commercials? Can't comment. I haven't done any in decades, but my guess would be that they get uber production care as well. Way more money riding on a commercial than your normal album. |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 10, 2017 14:37:18 GMT -6
There are a number of points there that I'd like to explore, but first I have a question that might be key to understanding - what kind of stuff are you doing? I'm getting the idea that you do mostly soundtracks and similar stuff, maybe commercials? The "soundtracks" that I work on get as much if not more care put into them than the normal album. I don't see what the point is. Commercials? Can't comment. I haven't done any in decades, but my guess would be that they get uber production care as well. Way more money riding on a commercial than your normal album. The point is that doing soundtrack work, commercials, composing, etc requires a different workflow and mindset than typical music production and that what works best for one may not work best for the other. This is even more true if the former involves using a lot of VSTis, which has become the norm for all but the biggest budget productions. |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 10, 2017 15:15:07 GMT -6
I know what you mean but my first decision goes for workflow, workspace and creativity in composing / arranging. I think a console is a creativity killer - at least the one I used was it and I had to change my setup. I am faster with the DAW and some outboard, the sessions can be opened in minutes - if the client wants a change. That is the time I live in and I have to give the market what he wants. Yes I wish it would be the other way round but that is not living in the real world. I had to make a decision between sonics and workflow.That´s why I used Slates VCC in mixing stage in the last 4 months and found that it can sound great if you know how to deal with it. Making a point, a decision is not a bad thing in my book. I know exactly what you mean about workflow, workspace, creativity, and decisions. And I do agree that a console takes up a fair amount of workspace. What I don't get is why you'd regard a console as a creativity killer - I regard it as a creativity facilitator. And to me the workflow, creativity, and decisions aspects are something of a mirror image to yours. To me the DAW is a creativity killer. I hate having to stop working and shuffle through nested menus to find a setting or function. To have to figure out arcane terminology and workflow to achieve a relatively simple function. They have each and every frikkin' program use its own terminology and workflow that is unique to that program. I read threads on the forums where somebody is trying to figure out some relatively straightforward function amnd the thread runs to 3 or 4 pages or suggestions why the thing doesn't work as expected and what to do about it. This is a "creativity facilitator"? Really??? I can sit down at pretty much any (analog) console and know pretty much what I'm doing - maybe one console has a few features that may not be on the one I've been using, but really, they're all pretty much the same as long as you keep computers out of the equation. (My console has an onboard computer that controls mute and fader automation - which we don't use - and also controls a lot of basic setup functions.. It's a royal PITA. The one thing that takes the longest by far about getting my system up is waiting for the damn console computer to finish booting.) Note that I have many of the same objections to digital consoles as I do to DAWs - there's no universal user interface. I do get the part about "if a client wants a change" - I was hoping that the automation on my console would provide at least some of that functionality, but so far that has not been the case, at least not using tape. With the new Orion interface we've started dumping tape to the (DAW) computer, so maybe that will facilitate integrating the board automation. I still don't see the console going away. |
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 10, 2017 17:03:53 GMT -6
John its easy I need to work on more than a single song.
I dont pay a big trade off in the sonics.
I just had to learn to organize my DAW approach different.
Customized shortcuts, trackpad and I pad.
I am now as good, or as bad, as with the console.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 10, 2017 22:31:44 GMT -6
John its easy I need to work on more than a single song. I dont pay a big trade off in the sonics. I just had to learn to organize my DAW approach different. Customized shortcuts, trackpad and I pad. I am now as good, or as bad, as with the console.  |
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Post by john on Apr 11, 2017 12:20:38 GMT -6
I recently tried to put all my guitar effects, keyboards and two amps at a patchbay and the result was ground hum louder than the signal. I just wanted to create custom chains on the fly and not have my vintage pieces running in bypass at all times when not in effect. I used decent quality ts cables throughout and they were all the same make. removing the patchbay from the equation solved the problem but I really dug the possibilities. anyone know why the buzzzzz ?
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Post by drbill on Apr 11, 2017 14:16:16 GMT -6
The buzz is because you have ground loops. Fix those, and hum is gone.
Having a patch bay is a LOT more than plugging stuff into the back of it and starting patching. The grounding of all your gear, the interconnects, the ground scheme of the patch bay and the AC in your studio all play into the grand scheme of "noise" or "no noise" - do it right, do it once. Noise-b-gone.
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Post by john on Apr 11, 2017 14:28:34 GMT -6
The buzz is because you have ground loops. Fix those, and hum is gone. Having a patch bay is a LOT more than plugging stuff into the back of it and starting patching. The grounding of all your gear, the interconnects, the ground scheme of the patch bay and the AC in your studio all play into the grand scheme of "noise" or "no noise" - do it right, do it once. Noise-b-gone. cool. soooooo, any tips on where to begin for the fixing? with my outboard it was basically just as easy as plugging stuff into the back and start patching. if I could get these instrument levels to work the same it would be swell. I have a Fender reissue reverb and a tube Echoplex that I do not want to lift the ground on because I like living. Hmmm...
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Post by drbill on Apr 11, 2017 15:40:21 GMT -6
There's tons of info in the internet. Having a proper grounded studio is not lifting all the ground pins. It takes planning, and serious implementation. To do an analysis of your exact gear, plan a system, and find solutions to problems and fix them is way beyond what I have time for. Good luck.
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Post by donr on Apr 11, 2017 16:08:17 GMT -6
My experience with hum in unbalanced patch bays was making quite a few patch cables with the shield connected to only one plug. And that was for -10 line level gear. If you're patching through a bay into a guitar amp, well, that's an awful lot of gain to keep quiet.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 11, 2017 17:11:46 GMT -6
I have also recently just stepped up to a more fully-realized Samson 2x48 patchbay setup, and it's a game changer for my hardware/hybrid mixing fits.
I haven't fully abandoned plugins, but I would say a properly wired patchbay is an essential part of a hardware setup.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 11, 2017 17:39:23 GMT -6
That pretty much sums it up. Dude, that thing MUST have been underwater. I've seen some pretty nasty PB's, but that one takes the prize. I'd throw it away and get a new one. Time is money, and pulling one apart just to polish it up is waaaaaay more costly than getting a used one that's pretty clean for $100. Just my opinion though..... If you ARE intent on carrying on, the burnishing tool is definitely worth the money and effort. You might be surprised. Also, a cleaning brush out of a .22 cleaning kit can do wonders. Might leave fragments in there, so blow it out with compressed air after you're done. Worth a shot.... Good luck. I know what you're saying but first there's not a lot of compatible, cheap patchbays around in good condition especially here in Oz. Second, I don't really want to reterminate a bunch of Elco's when this thing is already wired up. Thirdly, the actual contacts are in good condition, it's the just sockets that have oxidised. I have since removed 40 sockets by unscrewing the two retaining screws (using a torx bit on a drill for speed) and then used a single 2mm threaded screw and nut to temporarily hold the each set of tip/ring contacts and insulating spaces together so they don't all fall apart which was my biggest concern. I ran a 4.5mm drill through each socket which just removed the majority of heavy oxidation without taking out any metal. This was followed by running some stainless steelwool through each socket attached to an electric drill which cleaned out the rest of the crap followed by some metal polish on Q tips also attached to a drill and a final treatment with Deoxit. The tip/ring contacts and other bits still attached to the loom (but now loosely held together by the temporary screw and nut leaving the switch points open) were cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner and came up like new. Yep it involves some work but buying used patchbays is unlikely to be hassle free and will likely involve lots of reterminating and some cleaning anyway. As we currently have some downtime for maintenance and repairs anyway I have been doing a bunch of stuff that has been put off for a while. |
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Post by donr on Apr 11, 2017 19:42:30 GMT -6
Dude, that thing MUST have been underwater. I've seen some pretty nasty PB's, but that one takes the prize. I'd throw it away and get a new one. Time is money, and pulling one apart just to polish it up is waaaaaay more costly than getting a used one that's pretty clean for $100. Just my opinion though..... If you ARE intent on carrying on, the burnishing tool is definitely worth the money and effort. You might be surprised. Also, a cleaning brush out of a .22 cleaning kit can do wonders. Might leave fragments in there, so blow it out with compressed air after you're done. Worth a shot.... Good luck. I know what you're saying but first there's not a lot of compatible, cheap patchbays around in good condition especially here in Oz. Second, I don't really want to reterminate a bunch of Elco's when this thing is already wired up. Thirdly, the actual contacts are in good condition, it's the just sockets that have oxidised. I have since removed 40 sockets by unscrewing the two retaining screws (using a torx bit on a drill for speed) and then used a single 2mm threaded screw and nut to temporarily hold the each set of tip/ring contacts and insulating spaces together so they don't all fall apart which was my biggest concern. I ran a 4.5mm drill through each socket which just removed the majority of heavy oxidation without taking out any metal. This was followed by running some stainless steelwool through each socket attached to an electric drill which cleaned out the rest of the crap followed by some metal polish on Q tips also attached to a drill and a final treatment with Deoxit. The tip/ring contacts and other bits still attached to the loom (but now loosely held together by the temporary screw and nut leaving the switch points open) were cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner and came up like new. Yep it involves some work but buying used patchbays is unlikely to be hassle free and will likely involve lots of reterminating and some cleaning anyway. As we currently have some downtime for maintenance and repairs anyway I have been doing a bunch of stuff that has been put off for a while. Wow, romat, I'm impressed. To paraphrase Billy Batts, you must've made those jacks look like freakin' mirrors. |
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Post by rowmat on Apr 11, 2017 22:39:38 GMT -6
Not the best angle but they cleaned up well.   |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2017 1:23:58 GMT -6
Dude, that thing MUST have been underwater. I've seen some pretty nasty PB's, but that one takes the prize. I'd throw it away and get a new one. Time is money, and pulling one apart just to polish it up is waaaaaay more costly than getting a used one that's pretty clean for $100. Just my opinion though..... If you ARE intent on carrying on, the burnishing tool is definitely worth the money and effort. You might be surprised. Also, a cleaning brush out of a .22 cleaning kit can do wonders. Might leave fragments in there, so blow it out with compressed air after you're done. Worth a shot.... Good luck. I know what you're saying but first there's not a lot of compatible, cheap patchbays around in good condition especially here in Oz. Second, I don't really want to reterminate a bunch of Elco's when this thing is already wired up. Thirdly, the actual contacts are in good condition, it's the just sockets that have oxidised. I have since removed 40 sockets by unscrewing the two retaining screws (using a torx bit on a drill for speed) and then used a single 2mm threaded screw and nut to temporarily hold the each set of tip/ring contacts and insulating spaces together so they don't all fall apart which was my biggest concern. I ran a 4.5mm drill through each socket which just removed the majority of heavy oxidation without taking out any metal. This was followed by running some stainless steelwool through each socket attached to an electric drill which cleaned out the rest of the crap followed by some metal polish on Q tips also attached to a drill and a final treatment with Deoxit. The tip/ring contacts and other bits still attached to the loom (but now loosely held together by the temporary screw and nut leaving the switch points open) were cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner and came up like new. Yep it involves some work but buying used patchbays is unlikely to be hassle free and will likely involve lots of reterminating and some cleaning anyway. As we currently have some downtime for maintenance and repairs anyway I have been doing a bunch of stuff that has been put off for a while. I would NEVER, EVER use steel wool (or even brass wool, which is much less destructive) inside a patch bay. The last thing you need is tiny particles of metal floating around the inside of your bay to cause unexpected intermittent shorts at inopportune times that are fiendishly difficult to run down because the damn particles keep moving whever you try to isolate where they are. |
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Post by rowmat on Apr 13, 2017 1:33:26 GMT -6
I know what you're saying but first there's not a lot of compatible, cheap patchbays around in good condition especially here in Oz. Second, I don't really want to reterminate a bunch of Elco's when this thing is already wired up. Thirdly, the actual contacts are in good condition, it's the just sockets that have oxidised. I have since removed 40 sockets by unscrewing the two retaining screws (using a torx bit on a drill for speed) and then used a single 2mm threaded screw and nut to temporarily hold the each set of tip/ring contacts and insulating spaces together so they don't all fall apart which was my biggest concern. I ran a 4.5mm drill through each socket which just removed the majority of heavy oxidation without taking out any metal. This was followed by running some stainless steelwool through each socket attached to an electric drill which cleaned out the rest of the crap followed by some metal polish on Q tips also attached to a drill and a final treatment with Deoxit. The tip/ring contacts and other bits still attached to the loom (but now loosely held together by the temporary screw and nut leaving the switch points open) were cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner and came up like new. Yep it involves some work but buying used patchbays is unlikely to be hassle free and will likely involve lots of reterminating and some cleaning anyway. As we currently have some downtime for maintenance and repairs anyway I have been doing a bunch of stuff that has been put off for a while. I wopuld NEVER, EVER use steel wool (or even brass wool, which is much less destructive) inside a patch bay. The last thing you need is tiny particles of metal floating around the inside of your bay to cause unexpected intermittent shorts at inopportune times that are fiendishly difficult to run down because the damn particles keep moving whever you try to isolate where they are. I removed (as unscrewed) the sockets from the rest of the assembly and cleaned them separately. The tip/ring contacts still attached to the loom were cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner. So no crap got anywhere near the contacts. All reassembled and checked OK for continuity. |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2017 1:53:24 GMT -6
I would NEVER, EVER use steel wool (or even brass wool, which is much less destructive) inside a patch bay. The last thing you need is tiny particles of metal floating around the inside of your bay to cause unexpected intermittent shorts at inopportune times that are fiendishly difficult to run down because the damn particles keep moving whever you try to isolate where they are. I removed (as unscrewed) the sockets from the rest of the assembly and cleaned them separately. The tip/ring contacts still attached to the loom were cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner. So no crap got anywhere near the contacts. All reassembled and checked OK for continuity. Fair enough. I'm still extremely suspicious of using that stuff around electronics - it's sneaky. |
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