|
Post by drbill on Mar 25, 2017 11:51:09 GMT -6
Thought you guys might like a little console porn this morning..... There are mixers, and then there are consoles. Both work. Certainly budgets come into play when choosing. But consoles are more suited for being a centerpiece and heartbeat of the studio. If you want to sum OTB, then a mixer will work fine, although they are not all created equal. bp's OrionX that's FS - top pic. bp & RobS @ Sunset - a million hits have been cut on this old API bp on Capitol's 88RS - maybe the best mixer - I mean console - in the world. IMO. All consoles..... not mixers. Hold the phone. You're human? I figured you were just a bit. How's that 88RS sound? Clean as a whistle? Never used any newer Neve stuff. Clean, but 3D - Euphonic. Very, very nice. Obviously,,,,,,,
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919
|
Post by ericn on Mar 25, 2017 13:10:28 GMT -6
[br APB is probably the best thing made today in a small frame, holds its own with Delta/ Venue. In fact I almsost bit on a House Rack that needed a good going over that Clair Brothers had listed. I wouldn't touch a digital board unless I was doing live work. Lots of great deals if your patient. There is a used Soundcraft 500 32 on Craigslist in Topeka KS for $350 or I'll let the Status go for $800!
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 25, 2017 13:13:35 GMT -6
My concern is I really don't know what I am doing if I get into a used board, so still going up the learning curve
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Mar 25, 2017 15:32:58 GMT -6
if you are gonna get a console... get modular!!!!
I can pop a strip out of the delta in the time it takes to undo 3 screws and pull the leads from a channel...lift it out, disconnect the ribbon cable... and the console still runs.
I can't tell you , how many times that has been a huge time saver...compared to disconnecting something, and pulling out 750 leads, and getting friends to help me turn the console over, take out a bazillion screws etc
For the price of what you are considering for 8 500 series EQs you could have a 8/16 channel Delta modded up by Jim Williams.
You will learn to work on it yourself over time... which is a great skill.
You have heard what they do....
You can run it like I do, as discrete channels trips, reamping into logic and summing and final mix moves ITB
I agree with chuck that you need to adjust things in context with each other... after a bit, you get really sorted with that, and I could do it by just doing the drum kit on its own (six channels) then moving on.
How I use my Delta though, is I basically use 12 channels... I have more, but these are used basically...
Kick, Snare, Floor, Rack, Ride, Hat, Bass, Vocal, Acoustic, Electric, Stereo Left, Stereo Right
The instruments always get routed to those channels...I dont double of duties, e.g. use the kick channel for acoustic guitar..... This way all the settings for the channel stay basically the same, and get little tweaks each song.... I dont zero the board after each song.
The only downside of getting something like the Delta, certainly in Oz, and tricking it out.. is its kind of consumable in resale sense... where as 8 500 seres quality (non DIY) eq's you would get your money back.
500 series is a good consideration though, ergonomics wise...
You only live once... 8)
cheers
Wiz
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Mar 25, 2017 16:57:20 GMT -6
So yeah, that's a lot of $$$$ Buy a pair, and run stuff out your DA into the EQ, tweak, and back into your AD and re record. Simple. Only takes a few minutes and you don't have to sell your kids to buy 16+ EQ's. (In my case it would be 64, and I'd have to sell my motorcycles along with my kids, so screw that.....) OR, do the broad stroke stuff OTB, and do the tweaky cuts and surgical stuff ITB. Can't really hear the total effect of your changes in context until you're almost done. Adds tons of time and hassle to your workflow, and may affect your final result. Often a change on one thing will call for a change on something else, which in turn requires a change on the first thing, OR another something else, or...... You need to be able to work with multiple channels in real time to really get the full advantage of an analog workflow.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Mar 25, 2017 17:00:21 GMT -6
[br APB is probably the best thing made today in a small frame, holds its own with Delta/ Venue. In fact I almsost bit on a House Rack that needed a good going over that Clair Brothers had listed. I wouldn't touch a digital board unless I was doing live work. Lots of great deals if your patient. There is a used Soundcraft 500 32 on Craigslist in Topeka KS for $350 or I'll let the Status go for $800! I wouldn't touch a digital board unless I was doing theatrical work or choreographed shows.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Mar 25, 2017 17:10:51 GMT -6
My concern is I really don't know what I am doing if I get into a used board, so still going up the learning curve The workflow of even a relatively large, complex analog console is much easier and more logical than ANY DAW, and you don't have to learn all those stupid proprietory names that don't make sense for basic operations. The recorder side you're still stuck with unless you have a RADAR.
|
|
|
Post by rocinante on Mar 25, 2017 18:56:57 GMT -6
I spent years treating the daw like a mixer and even more years like a tape deck. Now i do both but theres definitely times i get mixed up (pun intended). In the end i could do it all otb but id need a bricast or a lexicon. I have only two outboard delays as i use plugs for most verbs. Id really miss my waves ssl and cla stuff and fab filter and klanghelm though. Back to the control surface, ive gone through nearly all of them, i like the size of the platform m. The learning curve to a mixer isnt all that steep. It does require aactually using it but if you can buy one used there's no harm in trying it for a year and reselling it for what you paid, under the assumption you didnt get swindled.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 25, 2017 20:19:02 GMT -6
Ya, I find I am down for all of it actually I got the FP8 to try and at a good price so I can easily get my money out. I am looking around but unfortunately not having any 500 stuff, the idea of 8 eqs and a chassis adds up fast, upside it all would be newer and in good condition. Al older board would be good value but the modding, shipping and buying in US $'s all adds up. The price's Jim says boards sell for where he is seems better than in Canada. One option would be to see if he can keep an eye out for one near him and get him to do the work and then get it here ? I'll keep shaking the bushes !
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Mar 25, 2017 20:38:22 GMT -6
Do not forget wiring. If you're buying an "inexpensive" solution, it costs the same amount - literally - as it does to wire up an SSL or vintage Neve or API with the same number of inputs. Wiring costs can easily cost 10X's what your cheap mixer costs to purchase. Do your homework. I can't tell you how many vacant consoles I've seen sitting waiting for the owner to figure out how to pay for installation costs because he "didn't think of that" when he bought the console.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 25, 2017 20:48:51 GMT -6
yes good point;frankly its one of the reasons I am still thinking about the simple 8 channels of eq and 2 modules (chroma) for 9-10 bus: the lindell 10 slot uses db 25, so very easy with couple of cables to patch to my patch bay and then patch however I want. I understand that 8 channels is what it is , but as I said, I mix from 8 aux typically, so I can see using my daw and the channels with some plugs and then sending out the 8 aux and using the eq and my ob compressors. I have been following some used eq's and reading Jerome's review of the diy pultec with the good tranni, not crazy money
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Mar 26, 2017 1:01:55 GMT -6
Do not forget wiring. If you're buying an "inexpensive" solution, it costs the same amount - literally - as it does to wire up an SSL or vintage Neve or API with the same number of inputs. Wiring costs can easily cost 10X's what your cheap mixer costs to purchase. Do your homework. I can't tell you how many vacant consoles I've seen sitting waiting for the owner to figure out how to pay for installation costs because he "didn't think of that" when he bought the console. It does help a lot to be handy with a soldering iron unless you want to pay a pile for store bought cables. When I got my console I was fortunate to get 200-300 lbs of multicore cable with it, including EDACS, some of which was actually wired correctly - on one end. It still took us 2-3 months to get wired up and I figure I got off easy. OTOH if it hadn't had EDACS I could have used a lot more standard cabling, much of which I had. Problem with EDACs is that there seem to be no standard pin configurations. EDIT: Of course I had to get around a grand in DB25 breakouts (heavily discounted) when I got the Antelope Orion 32 - it's not just consolers with that problem!
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Mar 26, 2017 7:22:45 GMT -6
i have a love-hate with db25 breakouts.. one one hand its a db25 which is super easy to use. on the other hand, they're expensive to buy, and slow to build. i'm too cheap/poor to buy retail db25 breakout cables, so i built my own with guts from mogami and mouser, and while each cable cost me about $60 (3' db25 to TRS), each cable took me about 3 hours to build, because of the db25 end of the cable. i only had to build 4 of 'em (symphony 8x8 had 2, and the mic pre card had another 2) but that was 10-12 hours of boring cable building!
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 26, 2017 8:18:41 GMT -6
Gee , I bought those ones that were recommended here on amazon and they weren't expensive at all. I was just eyeballing the cost of building all the xlr cables needed for 10 slot chassis and thought the db25, at least the ones I bought wouldn't be too bad at all. but hold the presses on that based on comments here above re: delta24/8 I seem to have found one in good condish and not crazy money. I knew how Wiz was using his with logic ( and you can do the same in Studio one), meaning patching out to the individual channels, so sending 8 modules to Jim to be modded as a start would be appealing. I have seen reference to Jim selling his upgrade as a kit with instructions: can anyone confirm ? My amp he modded is rocking but I found the shipping charges really added up there and back. I 'd be happy to buy a good de soldering tool and do the channel mod myself if I had the option but I think I would send hm the maser section.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 26, 2017 8:22:28 GMT -6
btw I am playing with the FP8 in logic this morning and pleasantly surprised at how much functionality there actually is.
I am starting to learn S1 but am pretty comfortable in Logic now, so if I can get things done in Logic will probably just use it, at least at first learning the FP8
|
|
|
Post by subspace on Mar 26, 2017 9:00:09 GMT -6
yes good point;frankly its one of the reasons I am still thinking about the simple 8 channels of eq and 2 modules (chroma) for 9-10 bus: the lindell 10 slot uses db 25, so very easy with couple of cables to patch to my patch bay and then patch however I want. I understand that 8 channels is what it is , but as I said, I mix from 8 aux typically, so I can see using my daw and the channels with some plugs and then sending out the 8 aux and using the eq and my ob compressors. I have been following some used eq's and reading Jerome's review of the diy pultec with the good tranni, not crazy money I've been trying an 8 bus OTB workflow this week as it happens. I have two consoles, an old 16x8 Trimix and the newer Audient dual layer console/controller/thingy. My default routing from the MOTU 16A is outputs 1-2 feed the Audient's stereo 'DAW mix' input, while outputs 9-16 feed Audient 'DAW returns' 1-8. I was using a PT session around 48 tracks that had been brought in for mix. Everything was routed to master outputs 1-2, as usual, so I could just start ITB mixing by hitting the stereo 'DAW mix' source on the Audient monitor section and riding faders on the DAW layer. I set-up three aux busses, A-drums, B-guitars, and C-vocals all returning to master outputs 1-2, and set-up plug-in bus comps on A and C. I used IK's SSL on the drums and 33609 on the vocals. The transition to OTB usually starts with me changing the monitor source to the Audient mix bus as you can directly assign the 'DAW mix' input to be summed with the stereo bus right before the master insert. I assigned each bus to a pair of 'DAW returns' feeding the analog channels. I bypassed the IK SSL on A and replaced it with the Audient bus compressor, using the wet/dry control to blend some more aggressive pump under the dry drums. I bypassed the IK 33609 on C and replaced it with the A-designs Nail, leaving the guitar bus uncompressed. I decided to add two more mono busses and reassigned the kick from A to one and the bass from B to the other. These fed the last two faders on the analog layer and I inserted a 160XT on the kick and FC526 on the bass. So that bus compression is all inserted before the Audient channel faders, which are automated from 8 'dummy' tracks in Pro Tools. All my channel processing is happening ITB pre-fader, while the DAW faders are what's driving the analog bus compressors. The automated analog faders are in turn my post bus compression make-up gain to ride balances. If I like the blend coming off one of the bus groups but want to ride a part above what that bus comp will allow for while maintaining that blend, I'll typically set-up a send feeding output 1-2, which is still assigned to the mix. So really I'm using 10 busses, with the 'DAW mix' input acting as a parallel blend. I haven't been using anything on the master insert. This has lead me to shopping for bus EQs as well, as I'm using plug-in EQ on most busses currently pre analog compression. I did insert two Trimix channel EQs, those are automatic on guitar bus. I'm thinking the DIYRE EQP5 could be just the ticket after the Nail on the vocal bus, ooh and bass, maybe kick too..
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 26, 2017 9:40:02 GMT -6
Yes, so similar here, if I were to get a real console. I already have about 5 channels of comp so was thinking 3 more, pus the eq, the diy eqp5 or chroma would be nice !
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 26, 2017 18:43:14 GMT -6
This guy ditched his raven for a console 1 and fp8: gives a quick sense of how he is using them combo in Studio 1 v3 Pro:
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Mar 26, 2017 23:23:38 GMT -6
I spent years treating the daw like a mixer and even more years like a tape deck. Now i do both but theres definitely times i get mixed up (pun intended). In the end i could do it all otb but id need a bricast or a lexicon. I have only two outboard delays as i use plugs for most verbs. Id really miss my waves ssl and cla stuff and fab filter and klanghelm though. Back to the control surface, ive gone through nearly all of them, i like the size of the platform m. The learning curve to a mixer isnt all that steep. It does require aactually using it but if you can buy one used there's no harm in trying it for a year and reselling it for what you paid, under the assumption you didnt get swindled. I have never been able to treat a DAW like a mixer. It's why I avoid using DAWs and have a music partner who handles that stuff. I can't just reach out and grab a knob, let alone grab a couple of knobs on different tracks (or busses, or whatever). If I had one of those Slate Raven things that might get me closer, but there's just too much stuff that's not on the surface. The typical control surface doesn't help much - there's lots of faders (on the big ones) but still only one or two channels worth of little knobs and the functions of those knobs keeps changing which makes me think about things - things which are not the music. If I wanted to think abouit running a damn computer I'd get a job in a frikken' office doing IT. But I don't. I want things absolutely intuitive and I don't wanmt top be forced to think about what I'm doing. It's like being "in the zone" when you're playing an instrument. Thinking takes you out of the zone. I need the feel of the knobs under my fingers - knobs attached to real pots, not rotary encoders. I cue my moves off of tactile sensations and rotary encoders have no "hard zero". I cue my fader moves off the position of my little finger resting on the surface of the board, which gives me a point to base the relative position of the fader on. I really don't understand how people can work intuitively on a DAW or a programmable control surface. I don't want to pause what I'm doing to shuffle through nested menus. If I have to do that I've lost the feel for whatever it was I was trying to do in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 27, 2017 5:44:19 GMT -6
^^This^^, the combo of a softube console 1 and a fp8 addresses all lot of this, essentially you do have dedicated functionality and something physical to tweak.
It is this dynamic that I am testing now, my console 1 shows up today, people with Console 1 even talk about turning off their monitors as of course you can just hear the change and don't need to see it.
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Mar 27, 2017 6:08:48 GMT -6
i'm curious what your thoughts will be for the Console 1. Post a thread about it when you get it set up!
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 27, 2017 6:25:11 GMT -6
Re: Console 1 experience: will do, I already feel like I will like the C1 more than the FP8 .
With C1, I like the idea of the dedicated per function knob so it becomes rote and you use your ears. I also like the idea that the sound quality of the ST channel strip(s) (SSL/neve) is /are sufficiently good that you just use it/them, so now you are comparing like with like across channels , like eq, but can add sweetener plugs in if you want.
The C1 has some added functionality in some daws like S1 and I think Logic so it gives you some of the FP8 functionality.
So long, story short, the FP8 gives you really good session and transport, touch sensitive faders and automation and the C1 gives you consistent plug in control and also automation and depending on your daw, you can still easily integrate OB, if you want.
FP8 plus C1 is under a grand: relatively speaking an interesting combo.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 27, 2017 9:19:52 GMT -6
Someone at UA forum is working in Cubase so I am going to download the demo and confirm FP8 functionality in CB: anybody here interested in that ?
|
|
|
Post by rocinante on Mar 27, 2017 9:19:57 GMT -6
I spent years treating the daw like a mixer and even more years like a tape deck. Now i do both but theres definitely times i get mixed up (pun intended). In the end i could do it all otb but id need a bricast or a lexicon. I have only two outboard delays as i use plugs for most verbs. Id really miss my waves ssl and cla stuff and fab filter and klanghelm though. Back to the control surface, ive gone through nearly all of them, i like the size of the platform m. The learning curve to a mixer isnt all that steep. It does require aactually using it but if you can buy one used there's no harm in trying it for a year and reselling it for what you paid, under the assumption you didnt get swindled. I have never been able to treat a DAW like a mixer. It's why I avoid using DAWs and have a music partner who handles that stuff. I can't just reach out and grab a knob, let alone grab a couple of knobs on different tracks (or busses, or whatever). If I had one of those Slate Raven things that might get me closer, but there's just too much stuff that's not on the surface. The typical control surface doesn't help much - there's lots of faders (on the big ones) but still only one or two channels worth of little knobs and the functions of those knobs keeps changing which makes me think about things - things which are not the music. If I wanted to think abouit running a damn computer I'd get a job in a frikken' office doing IT. But I don't. I want things absolutely intuitive and I don't wanmt top be forced to think about what I'm doing. It's like being "in the zone" when you're playing an instrument. Thinking takes you out of the zone. I need the feel of the knobs under my fingers - knobs attached to real pots, not rotary encoders. I cue my moves off of tactile sensations and rotary encoders have no "hard zero". I cue my fader moves off the position of my little finger resting on the surface of the board, which gives me a point to base the relative position of the fader on. I really don't understand how people can work intuitively on a DAW or a programmable control surface. I don't want to pause what I'm doing to shuffle through nested menus. If I have to do that I've lost the feel for whatever it was I was trying to do in the first place. Ahh man I've been at this a long time but all I've ever known is a daw; be it PT 7 or cool edit pro! My first intern then legit engineer gig in a facility was as the 'pro tools specialist'. lol.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 27, 2017 12:15:36 GMT -6
Speaking of older deltas:
|
|