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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 1, 2017 17:52:41 GMT -6
Yeah. It was close. The new passive ATCs were good - darker than the Amphions. I thought the Amphions "sounded" better - with more detail. I can't totally remember - there's a thread on it somewhere. But yes, I returned them.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 1, 2017 19:48:42 GMT -6
In John's small reflective space the wave guide of the Amphions gives them a huge advantage!
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Post by duke on Jun 1, 2017 19:59:59 GMT -6
In John's small reflective space the wave guide of the Amphions gives them a huge advantage! That is my thinking about good waveguides in general, but I didn't know John's space was small and reflective, which would indeed make their benefits more keenly felt.
Good pattern control not only reduces detrimental early reflections, but also make the spectral balance of the reflected energy similar to that of the first-arrival sound. This has multiple benefits, not the least of which is, reduced listening fatigue. (I can explain why if anyone is interested.)
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jun 1, 2017 20:04:30 GMT -6
In John's small reflective space the wave guide of the Amphions gives them a huge advantage! That is my thinking about good waveguides in general, but I didn't know John's space was small and reflective, which would indeed make their benefits more keenly felt.
Good pattern control not only reduces detrimental early reflections, but also make the spectral balance of the reflected energy similar to that of the first-arrival sound. This has multiple benefits, not the least of which is, reduced listening fatigue. (I can explain why if anyone is interested.)
Hey man you seem to know you monitors well... I have on stage stands and they have rubber ish pad over the metal however it resonates which make me believe I need to decouple.. would sorbothan hemisphere work well? Looking for a good solution that doesn't involve hundreds of dollars ... thanks if it's too off topic feel free to private mesg me
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 1, 2017 20:06:09 GMT -6
I don't know what you guys are referring to by "wave guide".
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jun 1, 2017 20:14:29 GMT -6
I don't know what you guys are referring to by "wave guide". The white part around the tweeter / that the tweeter is mounted in...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 1, 2017 20:19:22 GMT -6
ahh, thanks Chase. I thought for a minute it was some kind of dsp room correction.
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Post by duke on Jun 1, 2017 20:37:33 GMT -6
That is my thinking about good waveguides in general, but I didn't know John's space was small and reflective, which would indeed make their benefits more keenly felt.
Good pattern control not only reduces detrimental early reflections, but also make the spectral balance of the reflected energy similar to that of the first-arrival sound. This has multiple benefits, not the least of which is, reduced listening fatigue. (I can explain why if anyone is interested.)
Hey man you seem to know you monitors well... I have on stage stands and they have rubber ish pad over the metal however it resonates which make me believe I need to decouple.. would sorbothan hemisphere work well? Looking for a good solution that doesn't involve hundreds of dollars ... thanks if it's too off topic feel free to private mesg me Nah, I just talk a good game. I'm student of speaker design, and see some things in the Amphions that make a lot of sense to me.
The sorbothane hemispheres sound like a good idea to me. If your metal stands are kinda thin, you try covering the bottom of the plate that holds the speakers with Dynamat. This will add mass and damping to the metal.
And if someone with actual experience comes along and tells you something different, take their advice over mine!
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Post by duke on Jun 1, 2017 20:52:44 GMT -6
I don't know what you guys are referring to by "wave guide". What ChaseUTB said.
As used in this context, a "waveguide" is a type of horn - specifically, a very gentle horn whose primary purpose is radiation pattern control, rather than acoustic amplification.
Basically the waveguide forces all of the tweeter's output into the same angle, in this case maybe 110 degrees, I'm not sure. Anyway left to its own devices the tweeter would want to be omnidirectional at the bottom end of its range, and then of course it would beam at the top end. The waveguide can't do anything about the beaming on the top end, but it can force the bottom end into a narrower pattern.
This introduces a potential problem: The bottom end of the tweeter's output is now louder because all of its energy is being concentrated into a smaller angle! So this has to be equalized in the crossover. Fortunately it's not too difficult, and along the way power handling is improved a bit.
Imo the most benefit from a waveguide comes when the crossover between woofer and waveguide occurs approximately where the woofer's radiation pattern has narrowed to match that of the waveguide. This is called "pattern matching". Without knowing the radiation pattern width of the Amphion waveguide I can't really calculate whether they are employing pattern matching, but they are imo doing so many other things right that I assume they are.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jun 1, 2017 20:58:05 GMT -6
Hey man you seem to know you monitors well... I have on stage stands and they have rubber ish pad over the metal however it resonates which make me believe I need to decouple.. would sorbothan hemisphere work well? Looking for a good solution that doesn't involve hundreds of dollars ... thanks if it's too off topic feel free to private mesg me Nah, I just talk a good game. I'm student of speaker design, and see some things in the Amphions that make a lot of sense to me.
The sorbothane hemispheres sound like a good idea to me. If your metal stands are kinda thin, you try covering the bottom of the plate that holds the speakers with Dynamat. This will add mass and damping to the metal.
And if someone with actual experience comes along and tells you something different, take their advice over mine!
Thanks for the honesty 🙏 Yes the stands have rubber or a dynamite type costing however it's only Probably a quarter inch thick.. I was looking at sorbothane hemispheres and thinking of adding the hemisphere beteeen the monitor and the rubber.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 1, 2017 22:18:38 GMT -6
I hate to say it because some of the guys here with Amphions have ears I trust, but when I first heard them, they viscerally reminded me of NS-10's. I just couldn't even consider them after that, even though I know intellectually they must be good.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 2, 2017 12:33:29 GMT -6
I hate to say it because some of the guys here with Amphions have ears I trust, but when I first heard them, they viscerally reminded me of NS-10's. I just couldn't even consider them after that, even though I know intellectually they must be good. More Genelec than NS10, far more transparent and not in any way as ragged or piecing in the highend , more real dynamics , but still laid back, a sheen if you compare to ATC , Quad ESL, Top B&W ! I have a couple of 2 ways I would love to bring something for JK to hear but in his room I'm convinced a waveguide is a must.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 2, 2017 14:23:57 GMT -6
I had the benefit of a couple of email conversations with Hanssi from Amphion over the process of buying some and it seemed to me that he analyzed carefully what about typical design actualy created problems and then tried to solve them with the amphion design: - the tweeter is counter sunk into the depth of the cabinet so that it aligns with the woofer for phase coherency, - the tweeter is behind the wave guide for the reasons stated above and to negate the refection problems from the front face of the cabinet, - passive radiator is used instead of open port to produce better ad more controlled bass response, - both the passive radiator and the actual woofer are essentially design mates of each other( both SEAS), to best establish their sympathetic relationship, - cross over frequency set high to help clean up mid range problems and associated with the good tweeter design ideas listed above, - special cross overs designed to further compliment the phase coherence of the system, ( natural high end roll off : no hype), and - very high end solid cabinetry and joinery techniques. Martin and I are pals but every time he compares them to yams, I cringe and think if he had taken the amphion home I think he would have reached a very different conclusion For me and my monitor experience, Limited but 3-4 good names brands, I simply characterize the amphion as natural and un hyped. The honest moniker may seemed contrived but when I first listened to voices that I knew well over the amphion, that is exactly what I thought; how well and accurately they reproduced the voices that I knew and simply how natural elements of mixes sounded: cymbal washes, crashes snare etc, you get the idea. The other big thing for me was my sense of their expanded soundstage: breadth and depth.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 2, 2017 14:48:54 GMT -6
It quite possible that the Amphions I heard weren't broken in. That can happen at trade shows. If speakers aren't broken in, they can sound like a completely different thing. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I get a chance to audition them again.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 2, 2017 17:46:18 GMT -6
I hate to say it because some of the guys here with Amphions have ears I trust, but when I first heard them, they viscerally reminded me of NS-10's. I just couldn't even consider them after that, even though I know intellectually they must be good. More Genelec than NS10, far more transparent and not in any way as ragged or piecing in the highend , more real dynamics , but still laid back, a sheen if you compare to ATC , Quad ESL, Top B&W ! I have a couple of 2 ways I would love to bring something for JK to hear but in his room I'm convinced a waveguide is a must. Jeesh, you make it sound like a hovel.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 2, 2017 19:03:37 GMT -6
More Genelec than NS10, far more transparent and not in any way as ragged or piecing in the highend , more real dynamics , but still laid back, a sheen if you compare to ATC , Quad ESL, Top B&W ! I have a couple of 2 ways I would love to bring something for JK to hear but in his room I'm convinced a waveguide is a must. Jeesh, you make it sound like a hovel. Nah just acustic hell! That little a frame reminds me of my first little studio space above my moms garage, quaint but impossible to deal with.
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Post by adamjbrass on Feb 22, 2018 12:47:02 GMT -6
regarding the Amphion vs. NS-10, i can totally see why that reference could be used, but also, feel as though the Amphion's are LIGHTYEARS ahead of that design, as has been pointed out. But I totally see both sides of that. I will say, i just find the amphions far more pleasurable to work on, and for me, translate remarkably well to other re production speak's
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 22, 2018 13:06:08 GMT -6
fair enough but everyone says the 10 sound awful and if you can get your mix to sound good on them, then that works
the amphion don't sound awful at all, in fact, sound very natural and I thought polished ?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 22, 2018 13:48:04 GMT -6
regarging the Amphion vs. NS-10, i can totally see why that reference could be used, but also, feel as though the Amphion's are LIGHTYEARS ahead of that design, as has been pointed out. But I totally see both sides of that. I will say, i just find the amphions far more pleasurable to work on, and for me, translate remarkably well to other re production speak's Yeah other than as a common reference as a near field, while not an Amphion fan I agree the NS10 as a speaker is a little leaguer compared to the Amphions ! I’ll bet Amphion spends more on just the cabinets than Yamaha spent on a complete pair of NS10!’s
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 22, 2018 15:04:28 GMT -6
There is no law in physics that says a 5 can't play as loud or Low as an 8 with or without a passive radisator! Your putting far to much on cone size, you are assuming that all other factors are equal and that probably isn't true. Now I will grant you that the 5's probably is won't go as loud both max SPL or efficiency but I also bet few are pushing them to the max . One of my favorite 10's the Volt 2549 plays much lower than a lot of 12,15, and 18s. I think it's inefficient but with the right amp most are plenty happy with a single while I would want 4 or more ( have plans for dual towers of 4 ea next to the Magnepans if only the wife would say yes!)! Sometimes smaller speakers can sound better/tighter in the bass area as well... seen heard this a lot with PA cabinets. cheers Wiz Smaller speakers can sound tighter because, all other things being equal, you have less moving mass for a given amount of motor, so you get less overshoot and ringing. Control of the cone is better. It's roughly the same as improving the damping factor of your amp system (this is a bit more complex than many people realize, as the damping factor measured at the amp isn't the same as measured at the speaker. However, all other things being equal, the larger cone will go lower and may be more efficient, depending on mass. Many smaller woofers make up for the decreased efficiency and low end by increasing the excursion, which creates other issues regarding linearity. The key here is the phrase "all other things being equal". Often people compare apples to kumquats. It's all a matter of balancing factors, there is no free lunch.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 22, 2018 20:33:42 GMT -6
I don't know what you guys are referring to by "wave guide". It looks kinda like a horn around the tweeter but it's not a real horn because there's no overlap of the dome and no throat restriction. Consequently it doesn't couple and provide the acoustic transformer function of a true horn but it does control pattern and directionality.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 22, 2018 21:29:09 GMT -6
Macs sense now, thanks John.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 22, 2018 21:55:39 GMT -6
The amphions design also achieves phase coherence as the tweeters are in effect counter sunk into the front baffle so the tweeter and woofer diaghrams are actually aligned. The guide ( the white inverted saucer around the tweeter) acts to disperse the tweeter output uniformly not being negatively affected by interacting with the front baffle.
I certainly trust your judgement Martin, just thought it too bad, you couldn’t have demoed some one eighteens in your home for a while:)
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 23, 2018 2:52:08 GMT -6
Just pulled the trigger on the ATC SCM 12's...$1790 over 36 months at Sweetwater was just too tempting...and I can always return... Dammit...I haven’t even got my Amphions yet, and now I have to sell the Amphions I haven’t got yet and buy the ATC’s!!! Does it ever end? Lol Oh wait...after reading in further, I can keep my Amphions I haven’t got yet! Hope your having a better day...lol
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 23, 2018 8:01:22 GMT -6
The amphions design also achieves phase coherence as the tweeters are in effect counter sunk into the front baffle so the tweeter and woofer diaghrams are actually aligned. The guide ( the white inverted saucer around the tweeter) acts to disperse the tweeter output uniformly not being negatively affected by interacting with the front baffle. I certainly trust your judgement Martin, just thought it too bad, you couldn’t have demoed some one eighteens in your home for a while:) Are you sure they are aligned? Math for a good wave guide and physical alignment seldom well align! Also do remember physical alignment only compensates for phase response at the crossover frequency!!! Not the phase response of the driver!
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