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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2017 11:33:24 GMT -6
I'm really happy with my mixes, so I thought I should try and **ck things up.
Haven't some of you guys downsized to the One15s? I had both here and compared and I can't help remembering how punchy those One 15s were. I think I let my ego get in the way because the One 15s are the size of computer speakers lol. If someone is around that has done that, I'd appreciate comments.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 21, 2017 12:07:16 GMT -6
I re-demoed the one 15 but kept my one18's. I was preferring the greater linearity of the one18 over the more mid range sound of the one15.
After auditioning the ATC line, if you have an amp, I would suggest you also demo the new atc 12 passive: probably in between the amphion one 15-18 but likely more open top end and tight mid and bottom.
ATC 12 are on sale now at sweetwater.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 21, 2017 12:38:21 GMT -6
π€¦ββοΈ I mean that in the way kindest way possible Some thoughts for you to ponder: - Are you trying to gain pocket money for other goodies? - You say you are happy with the 1-18 why you want to switch? - What is lacking in your mixes now that the 1-15 will improve? - The 1-15 will not be able to be go as loud or low. Your mastering will potentially suffer as well as impressing anyone while tracking with playback volume. - The amount of bass a driver can reproduce is directly related to their size. A 5" driver with a passive radiator being sealed will roll off less gradually than a Ported box below the resonant frequency. - Smaller surface are drivers can go low or they can go loud or they can do loud but not like a larger driver could. - The same amp output will drive the 1-15 to reproduce the same 40hz as the 1-18 but the 1-18 will be louder more effortlessly as well as being more linear throughout the frequency spectrum. - How many Amphion 1-15 users also employ a sub? ( seems most do ) - Do you have a sub to employ with them or is that another expense you will have to add on?
I'm sure you will get a good number for your 1-18's used however can that $ purchase the 1-15 outright or will it take more cash to purchase the 1-15 set?
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 21, 2017 12:43:00 GMT -6
I'm really happy with my mixes, so I thought I should try and **ck things up. Haven't some of you guys downsized to the One15s? I had both here and compared and I can't help remembering how punchy those One 15s were. I think I let my ego get in the way because the One 15s are the size of computer speakers lol. If someone is around that has done that, I'd appreciate comments. Yeah, I did just that. I initially had them both and ended up being swooned by their bigger size and extended top and bottom. I bought the 18's and worked on them for around a year. Then, caught the bug and got the 15's back in. Compared them extensively. What I found was that the 15's were tighter and punchier. I think there was some cloudiness in the low-mids that the 18's were putting off in my room. I could hear the separation of instruments better on the 15's. They just punched more, and I really dug that. It was hard to swallow my pride and pick the smaller speaker, cause I really wanted to like the 18's more (and not have to explain to my wife why my speaker was so small). But the difference was big enough for me. They're bad ass mixing speakers. Punchy and tight.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 21, 2017 12:48:43 GMT -6
π€¦ββοΈ I mean that in the way kindest way possible Some thoughts for you to ponder: - Are you trying to gain pocket money for other goodies? - You say you are happy with the 1-18 why you want to switch? - What is lacking in your mixes now that the 1-15 will improve? - The 1-15 will not be able to be go as loud or low. Your mastering will potentially suffer as well as impressing anyone while tracking with playback volume. - The amount of bass a driver can reproduce is directly related to their size. A 5" driver with a passive radiator being sealed will roll off less gradually than a Ported box below the resonant frequency. - Smaller surface are drivers can go low or they can go loud or they can do loud but not like a larger driver could. - The same amp output will drive the 1-15 to reproduce the same 40hz as the 1-18 but the 1-18 will be louder more effortlessly as well as being more linear throughout the frequency spectrum. - How many Amphion 1-15 users also employ a sub? ( seems most do ) - Do you have a sub to employ with them or is that another expense you will have to add on? I'm sure you will get a good number for your 1-18's used however can that $ purchase the 1-15 outright or will it take more cash to purchase the 1-15 set? I'm not sure I agree with ya on some of that. I don't think a lot of people have issues with judging low end on their 15's. They put out a surprising amount of low end. And they can go incredibly loud, louder than I need. Also, I'm not sure that most people are using subs when mixing on the 15's. I suppose if you're doing electronica/dance/trance/whatever, then you might need that extra low info. But I'm telling you, if you're happy with the low end on the 18's, you'll probably be happy with the low end of the 15's. I've also heard of people judging low end by watching the speaker excursion. I've been doing that as well. I will say the top end is more different between the two. The 18's have an extended top end compared to the 15's. But after working on the 15's, I think I actually prefer their top end vs. the 18's.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 21, 2017 13:56:57 GMT -6
π€¦ββοΈ I mean that in the way kindest way possible Some thoughts for you to ponder: - Are you trying to gain pocket money for other goodies? - You say you are happy with the 1-18 why you want to switch? - What is lacking in your mixes now that the 1-15 will improve? - The 1-15 will not be able to be go as loud or low. Your mastering will potentially suffer as well as impressing anyone while tracking with playback volume. - The amount of bass a driver can reproduce is directly related to their size. A 5" driver with a passive radiator being sealed will roll off less gradually than a Ported box below the resonant frequency. - Smaller surface are drivers can go low or they can go loud or they can do loud but not like a larger driver could. - The same amp output will drive the 1-15 to reproduce the same 40hz as the 1-18 but the 1-18 will be louder more effortlessly as well as being more linear throughout the frequency spectrum. - How many Amphion 1-15 users also employ a sub? ( seems most do ) - Do you have a sub to employ with them or is that another expense you will have to add on? I'm sure you will get a good number for your 1-18's used however can that $ purchase the 1-15 outright or will it take more cash to purchase the 1-15 set? I'm not sure I agree with ya on some of that. I don't think a lot of people have issues with judging low end on their 15's. They put out a surprising amount of low end. And they can go incredibly loud, louder than I need. Also, I'm not sure that most people are using subs when mixing on the 15's. I suppose if you're doing electronica/dance/trance/whatever, then you might need that extra low info. But I'm telling you, if you're happy with the low end on the 18's, you'll probably be happy with the low end of the 15's. I've also heard of people judging low end by watching the speaker excursion. I've been doing that as well. I will say the top end is more different between the two. The 18's have an extended top end compared to the 15's. But after working on the 15's, I think I actually prefer their top end vs. the 18's. It's pure physics you don't have to agree with me π No way with the same power ( wattage ) a 5" driver will produce 40hz as loud as a 6.5" driver ( spl ) or an 8" driver. I stated that a sealed passive radiator plus enclosure volume helps the monitors play well below their resonant frequency ( lowest Hz say 55hz ) meaning you will hear more bass than specs provide ( down To probably 45 audibly hz due to a less steep roll off ( 12db roll off from a sealed enclosure) From my reading on GS a lot of users of 1-15 have a sub employed, even users of 1-18 albeit less of than 1-15.. Owners of Amphion should contact Annsi and ask what the FS ( resonant frequency ) of the woofer is and what the enclosure for their monitors is tuned too if they want to know what LF they are actually hearing. Theile and Small parameters every speaker has them and this determines the excursion ( Xmax ) FS and many other parameters that affect how and what the woofer can reproduce and at what spl level and how much power they need to do this.. 1-18 and 1-15 low end is way different due to: the driver and enclosure are way different plus the control room space and design will greatly affect the monitors response / reproduction. The bigger the enclosure volume wise the easier the lows will be reproduced. The bigger the driver ( surface area ) the lower the driver can audibly reproduce lower octave frequencies. Plus ported speakers are employed in a tuned enclosure ( yes to a specific frequency ) and when reproduce a higher SPL at the resonant frequency than a sealed enclosure because of the timing of the port ( bass reflex ) Also, due to being a passive radiator the woofer has excursion limitations due to the drone woofer used to expand the enclosure volume. Passive radiators are a form of bass reflex but use a dummy woofer in opposition to the active woofer.
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Post by ragan on Feb 21, 2017 13:58:27 GMT -6
I always lightly place my hand on the speaker surround when judging low stuff, like polarity of kick samples or whatever, or just referencing a mix whose low end I love with my own mix. Been doing it for years.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2017 15:04:45 GMT -6
I re-demoed the one 15 but kept my one18's. I was preferring the greater linearity of the one18 over the more mid range sound of the one15. After auditioning the ATC line, if you have an amp, I would suggest you also demo the new atc 12 passive: probably in between the amphion one 15-18 but likely more open top end and tight mid and bottom. ATC 12 are on sale now at sweetwater. Yep...was gonna do that today...
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2017 15:05:52 GMT -6
π€¦ββοΈ I mean that in the way kindest way possible Some thoughts for you to ponder: - Are you trying to gain pocket money for other goodies? - You say you are happy with the 1-18 why you want to switch? - What is lacking in your mixes now that the 1-15 will improve? - The 1-15 will not be able to be go as loud or low. Your mastering will potentially suffer as well as impressing anyone while tracking with playback volume. - The amount of bass a driver can reproduce is directly related to their size. A 5" driver with a passive radiator being sealed will roll off less gradually than a Ported box below the resonant frequency. - Smaller surface are drivers can go low or they can go loud or they can do loud but not like a larger driver could. - The same amp output will drive the 1-15 to reproduce the same 40hz as the 1-18 but the 1-18 will be louder more effortlessly as well as being more linear throughout the frequency spectrum. - How many Amphion 1-15 users also employ a sub? ( seems most do ) - Do you have a sub to employ with them or is that another expense you will have to add on? I'm sure you will get a good number for your 1-18's used however can that $ purchase the 1-15 outright or will it take more cash to purchase the 1-15 set? Well damn, I thought this was a place for discussion...
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2017 15:08:28 GMT -6
I have a sub and I use that with the 18's too.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 21, 2017 15:33:30 GMT -6
I'm not sure I agree with ya on some of that. I don't think a lot of people have issues with judging low end on their 15's. They put out a surprising amount of low end. And they can go incredibly loud, louder than I need. Also, I'm not sure that most people are using subs when mixing on the 15's. I suppose if you're doing electronica/dance/trance/whatever, then you might need that extra low info. But I'm telling you, if you're happy with the low end on the 18's, you'll probably be happy with the low end of the 15's. I've also heard of people judging low end by watching the speaker excursion. I've been doing that as well. I will say the top end is more different between the two. The 18's have an extended top end compared to the 15's. But after working on the 15's, I think I actually prefer their top end vs. the 18's. It's pure physics you don't have to agree with me π No way with the same power ( wattage ) a 5" driver will produce 40hz as loud as a 6.5" driver ( spl ) or an 8" driver. I stated that a sealed passive radiator plus enclosure volume helps the monitors play well below their resonant frequency ( lowest Hz say 55hz ) meaning you will hear more bass than specs provide ( down To probably 45 audibly hz due to a less steep roll off ( 12db roll off from a sealed enclosure) From my reading on GS a lot of users of 1-15 have a sub employed, even users of 1-18 albeit less of than 1-15.. Owners of Amphion should contact Annsi and ask what the FS ( resonant frequency ) of the woofer is and what the enclosure for their monitors is tuned too if they want to know what LF they are actually hearing. Theile and Small parameters every speaker has them and this determines the excursion ( Xmax ) FS and many other parameters that affect how and what the woofer can reproduce and at what spl level and how much power they need to do this.. 1-18 and 1-15 low end is way different due to: the driver and enclosure are way different plus the control room space and design will greatly affect the monitors response / reproduction. The bigger the enclosure volume wise the easier the lows will be reproduced. The bigger the driver ( surface area ) the lower the driver can audibly reproduce lower octave frequencies. Plus ported speakers are employed in a tuned enclosure ( yes to a specific frequency ) and when reproduce a higher SPL at the resonant frequency than a sealed enclosure because of the timing of the port ( bass reflex ) Also, due to being a passive radiator the woofer has excursion limitations due to the drone woofer used to expand the enclosure volume. Passive radiators are a form of bass reflex but use a dummy woofer in opposition to the active woofer. There is no law in physics that says a 5 can't play as loud or Low as an 8 with or without a passive radisator! Your putting far to much on cone size, you are assuming that all other factors are equal and that probably isn't true. Now I will grant you that the 5's probably is won't go as loud both max SPL or efficiency but I also bet few are pushing them to the max . One of my favorite 10's the Volt 2549 plays much lower than a lot of 12,15, and 18s. I think it's inefficient but with the right amp most are plenty happy with a single while I would want 4 or more ( have plans for dual towers of 4 ea next to the Magnepans if only the wife would say yes!)!
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 21, 2017 15:40:55 GMT -6
@jk I haven't even seen the atc12 up here, if you do demo them, be very interested in your thoughts ?
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Post by wiz on Feb 21, 2017 15:52:32 GMT -6
I always lightly place my hand on the speaker surround when judging low stuff, like polarity of kick samples or whatever, or just referencing a mix whose low end I love with my own mix. Been doing it for years. I was just mentioning this to a friend the other day... we were talking about how we judge low end... I use my hand infront of the port on my A7s.... I can "feel" if there is too much energy long before I can hear it...that and there is a point in my room I go and sit... if its just a little too much there...its about right. I still have an issue in my room ...somewhere around 240.....but I have learned to live with it. Whatever gets you there ...right? 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 21, 2017 15:53:27 GMT -6
It's pure physics you don't have to agree with me π No way with the same power ( wattage ) a 5" driver will produce 40hz as loud as a 6.5" driver ( spl ) or an 8" driver. I stated that a sealed passive radiator plus enclosure volume helps the monitors play well below their resonant frequency ( lowest Hz say 55hz ) meaning you will hear more bass than specs provide ( down To probably 45 audibly hz due to a less steep roll off ( 12db roll off from a sealed enclosure) From my reading on GS a lot of users of 1-15 have a sub employed, even users of 1-18 albeit less of than 1-15.. Owners of Amphion should contact Annsi and ask what the FS ( resonant frequency ) of the woofer is and what the enclosure for their monitors is tuned too if they want to know what LF they are actually hearing. Theile and Small parameters every speaker has them and this determines the excursion ( Xmax ) FS and many other parameters that affect how and what the woofer can reproduce and at what spl level and how much power they need to do this.. 1-18 and 1-15 low end is way different due to: the driver and enclosure are way different plus the control room space and design will greatly affect the monitors response / reproduction. The bigger the enclosure volume wise the easier the lows will be reproduced. The bigger the driver ( surface area ) the lower the driver can audibly reproduce lower octave frequencies. Plus ported speakers are employed in a tuned enclosure ( yes to a specific frequency ) and when reproduce a higher SPL at the resonant frequency than a sealed enclosure because of the timing of the port ( bass reflex ) Also, due to being a passive radiator the woofer has excursion limitations due to the drone woofer used to expand the enclosure volume. Passive radiators are a form of bass reflex but use a dummy woofer in opposition to the active woofer. There is no law in physics that says a 5 can't play as loud or Low as an 8 with or without a passive radisator! Your putting far to much on cone size, you are assuming that all other factors are equal and that probably isn't true. Now I will grant you that the 5's probably is won't go as loud both max SPL or efficiency but I also bet few are pushing them to the max . One of my favorite 10's the Volt 2549 plays much lower than a lot of 12,15, and 18s. I think it's inefficient but with the right amp most are plenty happy with a single while I would want 4 or more ( have plans for dual towers of 4 ea next to the Magnepans if only the wife would say yes!)! Sometimes smaller speakers can sound better/tighter in the bass area as well... seen heard this a lot with PA cabinets. cheers Wiz
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Post by reddirt on Feb 21, 2017 16:40:04 GMT -6
Haven't heard the 18's but have the 15's; for the work I do (nothing heavy - no loud drum tracking) I find in my room they are easily loud enough with surprisingly good bottom end in both volume and accuracy. I do check on 2 different cans and ultimately across very good hi-fi speakers in the house and the final arbiter , the car. To my ears they have a slightly broad resonant cabinet frequency around 195HZ which initially worried me but at this stage because they are 'mud' frequencies , when I knock them back a bit the mix sounds good on other systems. Top end and mids are by and large true with no obvious flattery I emphasise this is in my room; I can't be stuffed just yet, setting them up somewhere else to see if the upper bass/lower mid resonance is consistent in other rooms.
The box is a brick and feels very solid. If I was tracking rock I would have something more "brutish" with larger drivers as well.
Are they god's gift to audio and the must have solution? No, but they are a very good tool for mixing at least; I like them significantly more than my Neumann KH 120s which are great in their own right.
Not sure if I've helped in any way but they are my observations so far.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 21, 2017 22:18:57 GMT -6
Just pulled the trigger on the ATC SCM 12's...$1790 over 36 months at Sweetwater was just too tempting...and I can always return...
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Post by c0rtland on Feb 22, 2017 0:08:03 GMT -6
My thinking is to have a more neutral speaker. If the bottom end of my speaker is super tight and punchy it won't make me work harder to get it punchier when I am mixing. I'm happy with my Ns10's and one 18's.
Please offer counter points.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 22, 2017 1:27:54 GMT -6
π€¦ββοΈ I mean that in the way kindest way possible Some thoughts for you to ponder: - Are you trying to gain pocket money for other goodies? - You say you are happy with the 1-18 why you want to switch? - What is lacking in your mixes now that the 1-15 will improve? - The 1-15 will not be able to be go as loud or low. Your mastering will potentially suffer as well as impressing anyone while tracking with playback volume. - The amount of bass a driver can reproduce is directly related to their size. A 5" driver with a passive radiator being sealed will roll off less gradually than a Ported box below the resonant frequency. - Smaller surface are drivers can go low or they can go loud or they can do loud but not like a larger driver could. - The same amp output will drive the 1-15 to reproduce the same 40hz as the 1-18 but the 1-18 will be louder more effortlessly as well as being more linear throughout the frequency spectrum. - How many Amphion 1-15 users also employ a sub? ( seems most do ) - Do you have a sub to employ with them or is that another expense you will have to add on? I'm sure you will get a good number for your 1-18's used however can that $ purchase the 1-15 outright or will it take more cash to purchase the 1-15 set? Well damn, I thought this was a place for discussion... Exactly why I spent the time to type all of this out... for a discussion and to bounce ideas back and forth trying to help π.. I was asking you questions regarding your current monitor setup and why you feel the need to upgrade or get new ones. I was trying to help you, idk why you took it any other way when I was asking questions... i see my intentions to help were misconstrued.. it's all good π Enjoy your new ATC πI hope they solve the issues you were having with the Amphion! I hope no one took my comments or questions as disparaging to Amphion, they are def hi end speakers compared to my cheap Yamaha hs8... ericnYou disagreed with me to then agree with me π©π I also wrote about the passive radiator as well as the enclosure and why a 1-15 can give reliable audible info below freq specs and how the relationship works. I know you know speakers well so why posit that a 5" driver can reproduce the same as a 10"-12"... not with the same wattage and enclosure it will not reproduce the same spl. The 5" will need to be in a bigger enclosure with a tuned port way below the FS which then still may not be able to produce the spl one may need. Surface area is important not just the cone.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 22, 2017 5:17:01 GMT -6
My thinking is to have a more neutral speaker. If the bottom end of my speaker is super tight and punchy it won't make me work harder to get it punchier when I am mixing. I'm happy with my Ns10's and one 18's. Please offer counter points. I guess I meant more along the lines of if your mix is slamming, then the 15's will respond. I don't think they're tight and punchy by default. Definitely the same sound as the 18's. I thought the 18's were a tad more refined/relaxed and the 15's were a tad more forward and tight/punchy. I thought compression was easier to dial in with the 15's, but I could hear more reverb tails with the 18's, probably because they have a more extended top end.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 22, 2017 5:22:05 GMT -6
Just pulled the trigger on the ATC SCM 12's...$1790 over 36 months at Sweetwater was just too tempting...and I can always return... I've been drooling over the active 20's for a couple of years. I had a pair of the SCM25a's. I've never heard mids like that. So detailed.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 22, 2017 5:40:43 GMT -6
Just pulled the trigger on the ATC SCM 12's...$1790 over 36 months at Sweetwater was just too tempting...and I can always return... Can't wait to hear your thoughts!
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 22, 2017 7:10:31 GMT -6
Well damn, I thought this was a place for discussion... Exactly why I spent the time to type all of this out... for a discussion and to bounce ideas back and forth trying to help π.. I was asking you questions regarding your current monitor setup and why you feel the need to upgrade or get new ones. I was trying to help you, idk why you took it any other way when I was asking questions... i see my intentions to help were misconstrued.. it's all good π Enjoy your new ATC πI hope they solve the issues you were having with the Amphion! I hope no one took my comments or questions as disparaging to Amphion, they are def hi end speakers compared to my cheap Yamaha hs8... ericnYou disagreed with me to then agree with me π©π I also wrote about the passive radiator as well as the enclosure and why a 1-15 can give reliable audible info below freq specs and how the relationship works. I know you know speakers well so why posit that a 5" driver can reproduce the same as a 10"-12"... not with the same wattage and enclosure it will not reproduce the same spl. The 5" will need to be in a bigger enclosure with a tuned port way below the FS which then still may not be able to produce the spl one may need. Surface area is important not just the cone. Sorry...I was having a bad day. To answer your question, yes, I'd love to pocket some money and stay even/improve. We will see.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 22, 2017 7:20:38 GMT -6
Well damn, I thought this was a place for discussion... Exactly why I spent the time to type all of this out... for a discussion and to bounce ideas back and forth trying to help π.. I was asking you questions regarding your current monitor setup and why you feel the need to upgrade or get new ones. I was trying to help you, idk why you took it any other way when I was asking questions... i see my intentions to help were misconstrued.. it's all good π Enjoy your new ATC πI hope they solve the issues you were having with the Amphion! I hope no one took my comments or questions as disparaging to Amphion, they are def hi end speakers compared to my cheap Yamaha hs8... ericnYou disagreed with me to then agree with me π©π I also wrote about the passive radiator as well as the enclosure and why a 1-15 can give reliable audible info below freq specs and how the relationship works. I know you know speakers well so why posit that a 5" driver can reproduce the same as a 10"-12"... not with the same wattage and enclosure it will not reproduce the same spl. The 5" will need to be in a bigger enclosure with a tuned port way below the FS which then still may not be able to produce the spl one may need. Surface area is important not just the cone. Chase we still freinds ? Rereading we both came off a bit strong! The thing is most are not going to care about physics or limitations and JK jumps to ATC,I still hear the best of The Amphions are the Tiny consumer boxes that Bruce Sweden first raved about ! And we didn't even get to bass distortion phase linearity and summation!
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 22, 2017 9:46:57 GMT -6
I don't want to leave the impression that I think either the amphion one15 and one18 are deficient, but I think the atc 12 may be nicely in between and in a way better I auditioned extensively the atc12's big brother, the atc20 active and passive two weeks ago, while demoing the amphion one 15 and owning the one 18.
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Post by ericn on Feb 22, 2017 10:20:51 GMT -6
I don't want to leave the impression that I think either the amphion one15 and one18 are deficient, but I think the atc 12 may be nicely in between and in a way better I auditioned extensively the atc12's big brother, the atc20 active and passive two weeks ago, while demoing the amphion one 15 and owning the one 18. As I told JK the 20's are my favorite 2 way, in some ways I prefer them to the 25's, but in John's room the waveguide on the Amphions may be very helpful,
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