ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,938
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Post by ericn on Feb 12, 2017 18:06:09 GMT -6
Here is a 80 light bulb moment. 40 channels of Sphere type Balanced Receivers. Gary Somebody has been very busy!
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Post by svart on Feb 13, 2017 22:26:42 GMT -6
I do the 1176 into LA2A thing during mixdown. I rarely do it during tracking because the LA2A can add this fuzzy mushy thing to the mids if you're not careful, and it's impossible to get rid of once it's there. I'll use a LA4A during tracking. It's slow enough to not have much effect beyond level control, but still clean. Fuzziness? you say that like it's a bad thing. It's not fuzzy in a *added a little saturation* kind of way, it's more like the vocals become very blurred to the point of becoming almost mumbling sounding. Happens when folks really step on the gas during the take, and it's impossible to work around once it's printed like that.
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Post by svart on Feb 13, 2017 22:27:31 GMT -6
Here is a 80 light bulb moment. 40 channels of Sphere type Balanced Receivers. Gary bulbs being used as limiters? BOSE used to do that in their systems. I'm not sure if they still do or not though.
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Post by gar381 on Feb 13, 2017 22:56:36 GMT -6
Besides BOSE, Community also used bulbs for tweeter power limiters. Sphere used #313 28v bulbs as fuses. They are in series with the +/-24v power rails feeding the DOAs. Lose an output transistor, the bulb lights and protects the power rails so the rest of the desk won't be affected. Also the lit bulb points out the defective DOA. In normal operation the bulbs remain unlit. Got to love OLD SCHOOL ! Sphere's M1200/M1200B Mic pre cards, SPA-50 cards and middle/late production SPA-62 DOAs all had #313 onboard the PCBs Gary
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Post by wiz on Feb 14, 2017 0:39:30 GMT -6
Here is a 80 light bulb moment. 40 channels of Sphere type Balanced Receivers. Gary bulbs being used as limiters? BOSE used to do that in their systems. I'm not sure if they still do or not though. are those bulbs soldered in? cheers Wiz
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Post by gar381 on Feb 14, 2017 1:43:14 GMT -6
Wiz On the larger Sphere PCBs (mic pres and line amps etc) the bulbs are soldered in place. M1200B original and clone On the small SPA-62 DOAs wires are soldered to the bulbs from eyelets on the PCBs. SPA-62 DOA clones Gary
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Post by Ward on Feb 14, 2017 5:22:59 GMT -6
Fuzziness? you say that like it's a bad thing. It's not fuzzy in a *added a little saturation* kind of way, it's more like the vocals become very blurred to the point of becoming almost mumbling sounding. Happens when folks really step on the gas during the take, and it's impossible to work around once it's printed like that. I've never experienced that with an LA2a, and there have been thousands upon thousands (the actual number would be staggering) recorded with an LA2a and fuzziness or mushiness haven't been qualities attributed to those tracks. Maybe your experiences might be overly colored by over-use? Nobody really 'bars' an LA2a or CL1b or other optical tube comp. You just use it for smoothing. Tastefully, carefully. Maybe the lack of using it with taste and care results in fuzziness and mushiness? But what do I know?
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Post by svart on Feb 14, 2017 10:29:29 GMT -6
It's not fuzzy in a *added a little saturation* kind of way, it's more like the vocals become very blurred to the point of becoming almost mumbling sounding. Happens when folks really step on the gas during the take, and it's impossible to work around once it's printed like that. I've never experienced that with an LA2a, and there have been thousands upon thousands (the actual number would be staggering) recorded with an LA2a and fuzziness or mushiness haven't been qualities attributed to those tracks. Maybe your experiences might be overly colored by over-use? Nobody really 'bars' an LA2a or CL1b or other optical tube comp. You just use it for smoothing. Tastefully, carefully. Maybe the lack of using it with taste and care results in fuzziness and mushiness? But what do I know? Clearly you know more than me! It's done this since day one, about 10 years ago. The two knobs and a switch is just too much for me to understand I guess. That whole VU is confusing too... Maybe I just don't like what it does I guess. It sounds OK if you're doing less than 6db of compression, but as I mentioned, sometimes the singers get froggy during a take and really step up the volume, and it starts hitting 10-15dB of compression where the problem starts to show itself. If you call that a lot, then there are a lot of "pros" that are doing it wrong.. But then again, I find that it's more usable on mixdown. I think it's something to do with the transients when it's used directly after a preamp, and using it on mixdown works because the transients are already tamed a bit by sampling.
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Post by Ward on Feb 14, 2017 11:22:14 GMT -6
Well this has been fun. #somuchsarcasm
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Post by hasbeen on Feb 14, 2017 14:59:11 GMT -6
I've never experienced that with an LA2a, and there have been thousands upon thousands (the actual number would be staggering) recorded with an LA2a and fuzziness or mushiness haven't been qualities attributed to those tracks. Maybe your experiences might be overly colored by over-use? Nobody really 'bars' an LA2a or CL1b or other optical tube comp. You just use it for smoothing. Tastefully, carefully. Maybe the lack of using it with taste and care results in fuzziness and mushiness? But what do I know? Clearly you know more than me! It's done this since day one, about 10 years ago. The two knobs and a switch is just too much for me to understand I guess. That whole VU is confusing too... Maybe I just don't like what it does I guess. It sounds OK if you're doing less than 6db of compression, but as I mentioned, sometimes the singers get froggy during a take and really step up the volume, and it starts hitting 10-15dB of compression where the problem starts to show itself. If you call that a lot, then there are a lot of "pros" that are doing it wrong.. But then again, I find that it's more usable on mixdown. I think it's something to do with the transients when it's used directly after a preamp, and using it on mixdown works because the transients are already tamed a bit by sampling. Maybe it's time to try a new Opto-Attenuator like a Kenetek or switch out your 12AX7?
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Post by svart on Feb 14, 2017 15:18:06 GMT -6
Clearly you know more than me! It's done this since day one, about 10 years ago. The two knobs and a switch is just too much for me to understand I guess. That whole VU is confusing too... Maybe I just don't like what it does I guess. It sounds OK if you're doing less than 6db of compression, but as I mentioned, sometimes the singers get froggy during a take and really step up the volume, and it starts hitting 10-15dB of compression where the problem starts to show itself. If you call that a lot, then there are a lot of "pros" that are doing it wrong.. But then again, I find that it's more usable on mixdown. I think it's something to do with the transients when it's used directly after a preamp, and using it on mixdown works because the transients are already tamed a bit by sampling. Maybe it's time to try a new Opto-Attenuator like a Kenetek or switch out your 12AX7? It's possible I have a bad tube in there. I did lose one of the BH tubes a while ago and traded that out, but the general sound did not change. The T4B is original UREI(JBL) T4B. Do those wear out? If so, I wasn't aware that they would..
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Post by Guitar on Feb 14, 2017 16:09:41 GMT -6
Monitoring, nice mics, treatment has been covered.
I'll share a creative ah-ha moment. Coming from years of guitar playing and songwriting, I didn't realize it but had got to a certain impasse.
Listening to the Grimes album Visions on heavy repeat sort of blew my mind into realizing that suddenly I want to play synthesizers and all sorts of other instruments and styles. Sort of ease up on the 'guitar band' mentality, and in fact to go for infinity or whatever. Whatever works. Blew my mind.
I am in sort of a guitar renaissance right now, but I still have the same approach. Thinking of a larger production, multiple genres, not so caught up on a singular type of songwriting or playing. Beck has also been an influence lately. Not everything needs to be so folk serious or what have you. Have some fun with it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 19:27:33 GMT -6
It's possible I have a bad tube in there. I did lose one of the BH tubes a while ago and traded that out, but the general sound did not change. The T4B is original UREI(JBL) T4B. Do those wear out? If so, I wasn't aware that they would.. Yes, T4Bs do wear out. It is the EL panel, that get's weaker over time due to usage. Not too fast, but the T4Bs in vintage units, if original, can make a more than subtle difference for sure and should be replaced if you want the original performance characteristics. I am not sure, how much age and usage actually has a negative impact, though....
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 15, 2017 20:13:05 GMT -6
My first was when the Detroit Neumann representative loaned this high school kid a U67 to try out.
Another was when Valerie Simpson showed a little riff to the piano player and the piano sound went from mush to one of the very best I'd ever heard. The same thing happened with some guitar players.
The lessons were the difference a great mike makes and how little difference gear often makes.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 15, 2017 20:25:17 GMT -6
Bob I love to read your posts....you should write a book.... about all those special moments with talented musicians...
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Post by tasteliketape on Feb 15, 2017 20:45:33 GMT -6
Bob I love to read your posts....you should write a book.... about all those special moments with talented musicians... ABSOLUTELY it would definitely be my latest purchase when released Edit : Hell a book might be only way to make real money These days in the music business lol
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 15, 2017 23:40:50 GMT -6
M201 are great! Poor mans 441, also extremely versatile but a lot smaller. Love them. I've loved 201s ever since I was introduced to them working for FM Productions in the late '70s. They're just like SM57s except that they actually sound REALLY GOOD.... Only have 2 right now, wouldn't mind a couple more...
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 15, 2017 23:44:56 GMT -6
Well this has been fun. #somuchsarcasm I like Fun. It's better than Mein, IMO.
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Post by Ward on Feb 16, 2017 7:37:39 GMT -6
M201 are great! Poor mans 441, also extremely versatile but a lot smaller. Love them. I've loved 201s ever since I was introduced to them working for FM Productions in the late '70s. They're just like SM57s except that they actually sound REALLY GOOD.... Only have 2 right now, wouldn't mind a couple more... There is no 57 that actually sounds 'good'. Some people reference old UNIDYNE 3s and 4s, but they don't sound good... they only sound 'less awful'. LOL
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Post by hasbeen on Feb 16, 2017 12:08:41 GMT -6
It's possible I have a bad tube in there. I did lose one of the BH tubes a while ago and traded that out, but the general sound did not change. The T4B is original UREI(JBL) T4B. Do those wear out? If so, I wasn't aware that they would.. Yes. My UA LA2A is from the first batch in 2000. I replaced the tubes in 2013 including the T4B. The stock Opto-Attenuator exhibits what may be similar to what you describe. As I push it the audio starts to distort and I could see it as maybe 'fuzzy mushy' After I replaced the tubes and opto it was a real journey of discovery for me. The Kenetek is very smooth in comparison. The 12AX7 can alter the sound in a slight way that makes a real difference between an RCA or Telefunken. I use my LA2A to sort out noisy 12AX7. I can hear differences between tubes on my LA2A better than any of my other tube gear, and I have a bunch of that.
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Post by svart on Feb 16, 2017 12:55:20 GMT -6
It's possible I have a bad tube in there. I did lose one of the BH tubes a while ago and traded that out, but the general sound did not change. The T4B is original UREI(JBL) T4B. Do those wear out? If so, I wasn't aware that they would.. Yes. My UA LA2A is from the first batch in 2000. I replaced the tubes in 2013 including the T4B. The stock Opto-Attenuator exhibits what may be similar to what you describe. As I push it the audio starts to distort and I could see it as maybe 'fuzzy mushy' After I replaced the tubes and opto it was a real journey of discovery for me. The Kenetek is very smooth in comparison. The 12AX7 can alter the sound in a slight way that makes a real difference between an RCA or Telefunken. I use my LA2A to sort out noisy 12AX7. I can hear differences between tubes on my LA2A better than any of my other tube gear, and I have a bunch of that. Interesting observation. That may be what's going on. I'll look into the Kenetek then. I did notice that the LA2A was very touchy on some tubes. It liked the stock tubes, but replacements seemed to have stability issues. I had to select a few to get rid of oscillations or drop outs. I never considered that the T4B could/would be the problem, especially since it was like that from the beginning. I don't notice the mushiness getting worse over time though.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 16, 2017 12:55:32 GMT -6
What's good about 57s is how they duck the room sound and outdoor interference.
I used to hate them but eventually learned to always set one up as a talkback mike in case it sounded better than the Neumann I had intended to use. I remember chewing Glenn Fry's band in Michigan out for using 57s only to find myself after Motown and the Eagles having to record him with a 57 while praying that he wouldn't remember me.
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Post by svart on Feb 16, 2017 12:59:06 GMT -6
I've loved 201s ever since I was introduced to them working for FM Productions in the late '70s. They're just like SM57s except that they actually sound REALLY GOOD.... Only have 2 right now, wouldn't mind a couple more... There is no 57 that actually sounds 'good'. Some people reference old UNIDYNE 3s and 4s, but they don't sound good... they only sound 'less awful'. LOL I have an older mexican 57 that sounds decent on heavy guitars only. I have always found others that work better on snare and just about everything else. I have some older unidynes, and those are even more lo-fi than the mexi57. They work Ok on chimey Fender amps and guitars with light strings since they tend to muffle the higher fizz more. But I'm with you that they aren't my first choice on much of anything anymore, but I will still use them if I needed another mic something else and they were the only things left.
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Post by Ward on Feb 16, 2017 13:11:58 GMT -6
There is no 57 that actually sounds 'good'. Some people reference old UNIDYNE 3s and 4s, but they don't sound good... they only sound 'less awful'. LOL I have an older mexican 57 that sounds decent on heavy guitars only. I have always found others that work better on snare and just about everything else. I have some older unidynes, and those are even more lo-fi than the mexi57. They work Ok on chimey Fender amps and guitars with light strings since they tend to muffle the higher fizz more. But I'm with you that they aren't my first choice on much of anything anymore, but I will still use them if I need something else. We could not be in greater agreement were we Putin and Trump. SORRY Johnkenn I MEANT "NO POLITICS"!!
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Post by svart on Feb 16, 2017 13:18:16 GMT -6
M201 are great! Poor mans 441, also extremely versatile but a lot smaller. Love them. I've loved 201s ever since I was introduced to them working for FM Productions in the late '70s. They're just like SM57s except that they actually sound REALLY GOOD.... Only have 2 right now, wouldn't mind a couple more... I bought a M201 years and years ago. I thought I liked it, but ended up scooping out the mid-honk on all kinds of stuff I used it on. Along came the I5 and I sold the M201 for a profit.. To me, the I5, Beta57 and the M80 are all very similar in tone to the M201 on a lot of sources. Even then, I would think about selling the M80. it's a nice mic but it's another that doesn't quite live up to the hype.
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