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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 28, 2017 8:55:33 GMT -6
It's clearly debatable. The WA87 isn't a case of the Emperors New Clothes though, it sounds really good.
In Neumann's case, I don't have much sympathy for them. The U87 should be closer to 2 G's by now, and they should certainly make a proper U47 and U67, and sell it at whatever price it takes to do it right. Telefunken USA's U47 sounds incredible. Neumann only have themselves to blame for the proliferation of high end clones.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 10:50:52 GMT -6
Call me crazy but I just do not see the travesty in the fact that people can now get a quality tool at a reasonable price and I do not understand (actually I think I might) the dogmatic pushback against it. I recently got a STA-Level. I've been comparing it to my vocal tracking compressor of choice, which has been the WA-2a. Yeah, I think I dig the STA-Level more, but the difference isn't anywhere near what the price difference would suggest. And you know what? The WA-2a still sounds really nice and I'm glad I've had it thus far, when I couldn't afford the big boutique piece. And that's another thing, the vitriol against clones is always (and I mean ALWAYS) directed at the affordable ones. Retro? Chandler? Serpent? Mohog? Wonder? Flea? BAE? Heritage? Those guys all get a pass. Barrier to entry is still properly high I guess. For my part, I'll keep being glad the marketplace works like it should and provides options. Just cause I've shelled out a lot of money for some nice gear doesn't make me think all the young and/or strapped engineers out there should be relegated to MXL 990s and Apex 460s. Ragan, man. You. Just. Don't. Get. It. There's a kid in my neighborhood who drives a new car, a Hyundai, and it pisses me off. Who does this little schmuck think he is? Getting around town in some newfangled ride, made in Asia, I may add, probably in some automated facility where the workers live in cramped cells in between checking diagnostics on the robot assembly line. Vrimmm, Vrimmm... that thin-pinched sounding engine whining like some kind of colicky infant. It makes me sick. Sick, I tell ya! Last week, I drove by his house in my Ford Model-T just to show him what a real car is supposed to be like. Handbuilt. Handwired. Handcranked. So what if it cost me a fortune to keep it on the road. This is the original and that's the only thing that matters. Everything after the FMT is a farking piece of garbage unworthy to even share the road with my iconic ride. And nobody, not even that Amish a-hole with the horse and buggy in the next county over, can tell me that some new car, that gets the job done for some and makes that kid happy, is not utter shite.
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ericn
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wa-414
Jul 28, 2017 11:11:59 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Jul 28, 2017 11:11:59 GMT -6
In that video, the AKG EB handles sibilance more naturally. You wanna know what 'gold' is? An AKG C414EB with one of Tim Campbell's CT!2 capsules in it. All the high end clarity and air the very best C414 was known for but without the sibilance of a mass produced OEM off the shelf C12 styled capsule. I know they mean well, but I don't agree with what cloners are doing with the C414 and U87. It's watering down the coffee and muddying up those waters to begin with. Soon, nobody under 40 is going to know what a CK12 actually imparts to the sound of a ELA M251, C12, C12a, C12b, C412 or C414 microphone If that's gold platinum is that mic with Jim Williams mod's to bad he isn't doing mics anymore!
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Post by ragan on Jul 28, 2017 11:39:21 GMT -6
Call me crazy but I just do not see the travesty in the fact that people can now get a quality tool at a reasonable price and I do not understand (actually I think I might) the dogmatic pushback against it. I recently got a STA-Level. I've been comparing it to my vocal tracking compressor of choice, which has been the WA-2a. Yeah, I think I dig the STA-Level more, but the difference isn't anywhere near what the price difference would suggest. And you know what? The WA-2a still sounds really nice and I'm glad I've had it thus far, when I couldn't afford the big boutique piece. And that's another thing, the vitriol against clones is always (and I mean ALWAYS) directed at the affordable ones. Retro? Chandler? Serpent? Mohog? Wonder? Flea? BAE? Heritage? Those guys all get a pass. Barrier to entry is still properly high I guess. For my part, I'll keep being glad the marketplace works like it should and provides options. Just cause I've shelled out a lot of money for some nice gear doesn't make me think all the young and/or strapped engineers out there should be relegated to MXL 990s and Apex 460s. Ragan, man. You. Just. Don't. Get. It. There's a kid in my neighborhood who drives a new car, a Hyundai, and it pisses me off. Who does this little schmuck think he is? Getting around town in some newfangled ride, made in Asia, I may add, probably in some automated facility where the workers live in cramped cells in between checking diagnostics on the robot assembly line. Vrimmm, Vrimmm... that thin-pinched sounding engine whining like some kind of colicky infant. It makes me sick. Sick, I tell ya! Last week, I drove by his house in my Ford Model-T just to show him what a real car is supposed to be like. Handbuilt. Handwired. Handcranked. So what if it cost me a fortune to keep it on the road. This is the original and that's the only thing that matters. Everything after the FMT is a farking piece of garbage unworthy to even share the road with my iconic ride. And nobody, not even that Amish a-hole with the horse and buggy in the next county over, can tell me that some new car, that gets the job done for some and makes that kid happy, is not utter shite. But...but...what if I get a Handmade BoutiqueTM CloneTM of Proper and Established GearLand PedigreeTM that costs a lot? I know I can't be in the real club, but can I at least deride the Hyundai guy??? Pretty pleeeeaaase...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 12:13:23 GMT -6
Ragan, man. You. Just. Don't. Get. It. There's a kid in my neighborhood who drives a new car, a Hyundai, and it pisses me off. Who does this little schmuck think he is? Getting around town in some newfangled ride, made in Asia, I may add, probably in some automated facility where the workers live in cramped cells in between checking diagnostics on the robot assembly line. Vrimmm, Vrimmm... that thin-pinched sounding engine whining like some kind of colicky infant. It makes me sick. Sick, I tell ya! Last week, I drove by his house in my Ford Model-T just to show him what a real car is supposed to be like. Handbuilt. Handwired. Handcranked. So what if it cost me a fortune to keep it on the road. This is the original and that's the only thing that matters. Everything after the FMT is a farking piece of garbage unworthy to even share the road with my iconic ride. And nobody, not even that Amish a-hole with the horse and buggy in the next county over, can tell me that some new car, that gets the job done for some and makes that kid happy, is not utter shite. But...but...what if I get a Handmade BoutiqueTM CloneTM of Proper and Established GearLand PedigreeTM that costs a lot? I know I can't be in the real club, but can I at least deride the Hyundai guy??? Pretty pleeeeaaase... Tell you what. Unlike that screeching wannabe neighbor kid of mine, you seem like a nice guy, albeit with these delusions of making music with gear that costs less than $3,000. I could give a rat's ass that Eliot Smith built his career with equipment most people on this site would throw away, but unless your rig has at least one nano-gram of Georg Neumann's or Rupert Neve's, blood, sweat, saliva or other body secretion injected into it atop the sacrificial altar of Mt. Olympus, you're just fooling yourself that you can do anything with that phony-baloney stuff other than to use it to pick up dog crap at the park. And hey, feel free to egg my neighbor kid's house anytime. That arrogant little bastard has it coming. Grrrrrrr.
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Post by winetree on Jul 28, 2017 12:17:34 GMT -6
In that video, the AKG EB handles sibilance more naturally. You wanna know what 'gold' is? An AKG C414EB with one of Tim Campbell's CT!2 capsules in it. All the high end clarity and air the very best C414 was known for but without the sibilance of a mass produced OEM off the shelf C12 styled capsule. I know they mean well, but I don't agree with what cloners are doing with the C414 and U87. It's watering down the coffee and muddying up those waters to begin with. Soon, nobody under 40 is going to know what a CK12 actually imparts to the sound of a ELA M251, C12, C12a, C12b, C412 or C414 microphone I agree. I've got 2 of these
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Post by winetree on Jul 28, 2017 12:44:54 GMT -6
You wanna know what 'gold' is? An AKG C414EB with one of Tim Campbell's CT!2 capsules in it. All the high end clarity and air the very best C414 was known for but without the sibilance of a mass produced OEM off the shelf C12 styled capsule. I know they mean well, but I don't agree with what cloners are doing with the C414 and U87. It's watering down the coffee and muddying up those waters to begin with. Soon, nobody under 40 is going to know what a CK12 actually imparts to the sound of a ELA M251, C12, C12a, C12b, C412 or C414 microphone If that's gold platinum is that mic with Jim Williams mod's to bad he isn't doing mics anymore! I'm dropping off my Adcom GFA 555 PRO to Jim Williams today for the mod. Just for the hell of it I'll take the 414EB along and ask him what he thinks about a mod.
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Post by jakeharris on Jul 28, 2017 13:23:33 GMT -6
But...but...what if I get a Handmade BoutiqueTM CloneTM of Proper and Established GearLand PedigreeTM that costs a lot? I know I can't be in the real club, but can I at least deride the Hyundai guy??? Pretty pleeeeaaase... He says into his $3'000 modified Neumann 67! I think you're missing one very important difference here: the 414 and 87 are active commercial products. You can buy them from the original manufacturer, brand new. Can't say the same for 47/67/251/C12 etc
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Post by ragan on Jul 28, 2017 17:32:23 GMT -6
But...but...what if I get a Handmade BoutiqueTM CloneTM of Proper and Established GearLand PedigreeTM that costs a lot? I know I can't be in the real club, but can I at least deride the Hyundai guy??? Pretty pleeeeaaase... He says into his $3'000 modified Neumann 67! I think you're missing one very important difference here: the 414 and 87 are active commercial products. You can buy them from the original manufacturer, brand new. Can't say the same for 47/67/251/C12 etc Heheh. Yes, well, I like high end gear too. A lot. My go to chain at the moment is the 67 --> Great River MP-2NV --> Great River Harrison 32c --> STA-Level --> Symphony MKII. Not super budget. I'm not making the case that Warm or 3U gear or whatever is Exactly The Same as the high dollar boutique stuff. I'm saying it's good quality gear. I've got 7 3U Audio mics, a pair of WA76, a WA-2a and a WA-412. I love all of it; it delivers. And it's, sonically, nothing like the crappy Chinese off the shelf OEM rebrand stuff that some people try to associate it with. I've done extensive ABing with the high retail gear and I feel very confident in my view that it holds its own. I'm also not making a moral argument. I don't care at all about the clone stuff vs intellectual property debate, but some people do care about it. Fine of course, they shouldn't buy those products. But one thing I do take issue with is giving the expensive clones a pass while treating the cheap ones like they're Ruining The World. There's no moral exception just because something costs a lot.
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wa-414
Jul 28, 2017 22:40:24 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 28, 2017 22:40:24 GMT -6
You wanna know what 'gold' is? An AKG C414EB with one of Tim Campbell's CT!2 capsules in it. All the high end clarity and air the very best C414 was known for but without the sibilance of a mass produced OEM off the shelf C12 styled capsule. I know they mean well, but I don't agree with what cloners are doing with the C414 and U87. It's watering down the coffee and muddying up those waters to begin with. Soon, nobody under 40 is going to know what a CK12 actually imparts to the sound of a ELA M251, C12, C12a, C12b, C412 or C414 microphone I think "soon" has come already unfortunately. I understand that everybody wants a classic mic, but just wish instead of copying designs, the manufacturers would either come up with their own design, or improve upon it. Sure, Jeff makes a "copy" of api stuff, and I own and use it on a daily basis, but to me its a vast improvement over anything you can get from API today. That's some badass innovative thinking. Taking a mic, making it sort of look the same with the body and grill, copping some of the components and shoving a lesser capsule inside... I don't get it. Well same could be said for the current production of c414 from akg? It's a former shell of its predecessor... the vid above just showed the warm mic handling sibilance way better than the akg ... wish there were raw files but hey, seems warm did ok considering this mic is $499 and not $999 like the akg c414 BSXLIi whatever revision! ( yes the newer c414 are good and usable mics )
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wa-414
Jul 29, 2017 13:47:24 GMT -6
Post by swurveman on Jul 29, 2017 13:47:24 GMT -6
I'm not going to get into a pissing match about which clones of the original AKG414 with the CK12 capsule are the best. However, when I listen to the original CK12 capsule on the cardioid acoustic guitar sound clip the sound of the guitar is a lot more open to my ears than any of the other AKG capsules and I suspect the Warm one. It's a (expletive removed) shame that I'd have to pay around 8K to get it.
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Post by jakeharris on Jul 29, 2017 19:29:40 GMT -6
It's a (expletive removed) shame that I'd have to pay around 8K to get it. Why? $2.5K will get you the 414EB with brass CK12. Or buy an EB with Teflon capsule (for peanuts), and install a Campbell CT12 (also peanuts).
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 29, 2017 21:27:17 GMT -6
It's a (expletive removed) shame that I'd have to pay around 8K to get it. Why? $2.5K will get you the 414EB with brass CK12. Or buy an EB with Teflon capsule (for peanuts), and install a Campbell CT12 (also peanuts). Or put a TK in a Warm!!
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kcatthedog
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wa-414
Jul 30, 2017 4:57:46 GMT -6
Ward likes this
Post by kcatthedog on Jul 30, 2017 4:57:46 GMT -6
I think the Warm circuit is a little different, not certain you can just drop TK in ?
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wa-414
Jul 30, 2017 7:24:15 GMT -6
Post by swurveman on Jul 30, 2017 7:24:15 GMT -6
It's a (expletive removed) shame that I'd have to pay around 8K to get it. Why? $2.5K will get you the 414EB with brass CK12. Yep, you're right. My mistake. Techno Empire out of Burbank has a few 414EB with brass CK12's nnd other vintage microphones. Anybody know the reliability of these guys?
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 30, 2017 9:19:11 GMT -6
Dave at Advanced Audio also has his own version of the 414. It doesn't look much like a 414 though. Like the Warm Audio it utilizes a CEK12 style capsule, not a true CK12 Brass capsule. He posted some clips in the Advanced Audio thread. I actually thought it sounded great on guitars. The AA and WA are at a similar price point. I'd love to hear those next to each other.
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wa-414
Jul 31, 2017 10:18:28 GMT -6
Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 31, 2017 10:18:28 GMT -6
Here is a pic of the warm capsule in the 414 clone
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