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wa-414
Apr 10, 2017 14:18:52 GMT -6
Post by m03 on Apr 10, 2017 14:18:52 GMT -6
I get what you're driving at here. Free downloads are great too, because they create thousands of satisfied customers. Stealing software without paying for it is one thing and this is not what we are talking about. Nevermind the fact that most internet infrastructure is running on free, open-source software, so his post is unintentionally hilarious.
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Post by ragan on Apr 10, 2017 14:33:54 GMT -6
This topic is always passionate.
We've all (myself included) got our pet opinions and there are various interests at play whenever it comes up.
I think it's worth pointing out though, when throwing around terms like "race to the bottom", that there is simply not a direct, clear, linear relationship between retail cost and overall quality. There's usually some relationship between the two but it's far from universal and predictable in a global marketplace like we have today. You have to go case by case if you want to know the truth of a given matter. There's expensive gear that kinda sucks and cheap gear that's quite good. And everything in between.
Warm Audio made a big splash and they've become to some extent an affront to the Old Guard Gear Paradigm, at least, in the minds of some.
For my .02, I've had a lot of Warm gear and I find it to be high quality and have no trouble sitting next to much more retail-costly gear.
Paradigm disruption be damned.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,928
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wa-414
Apr 10, 2017 15:04:43 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Apr 10, 2017 15:04:43 GMT -6
It's crowded at the top and original designs are a hard sell. Easier to try and recreate the classics everybody wants. FAIR POINT. I'm just tired of all the worshipping of carbon copiers. Ok, pseudo carbon copiers who take lots of shortcuts and make false claims. How's that? Up until this one I have been happy with Warm's Comps excepted the EQ as an inspired by Pultec, but a 414 needs a CK12! I figured Bryce would use a CK12 and do a TL to save $$! I do love my modular MBHO with the omni cap! I would love another and more of the capsules, doubt I'll find them for the $200 I payed for this one!
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Post by m03 on Apr 10, 2017 15:27:19 GMT -6
It's crowded at the top and original designs are a hard sell. Easier to try and recreate the classics everybody wants. FAIR POINT. I'm just tired of all the worshipping of carbon copiers. Ok, pseudo carbon copiers who take lots of shortcuts and make false claims. How's that? It's funny how I never see people levying the same criticism in threads about the Retro 176, Sta-Level, UTA Unfairchild, or similar expensively-priced clones.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 10, 2017 15:32:42 GMT -6
how is creating 1,000's of satisfied customers, who can't afford the originals anyway, not contributing anything ? I get what you're driving at here. Free downloads are great too, because they create thousands of satisfied customers. No. Not customers, consumers.
Customers pay money. Consumers consume, paying is, er, tangential.
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Post by ragan on Apr 10, 2017 15:39:54 GMT -6
FAIR POINT. I'm just tired of all the worshipping of carbon copiers. Ok, pseudo carbon copiers who take lots of shortcuts and make false claims. How's that? It's funny how I never see people levying the same criticism in threads about the Retro 176, Sta-Level, UTA Unfairchild, or similar expensively-priced clones. +1000
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wa-414
Apr 10, 2017 16:05:42 GMT -6
via mobile
cdkelly likes this
Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 10, 2017 16:05:42 GMT -6
FAIR POINT. I'm just tired of all the worshipping of carbon copiers. Ok, pseudo carbon copiers who take lots of shortcuts and make false claims. How's that? It's funny how I never see people levying the same criticism in threads about the Retro 176, Sta-Level, UTA Unfairchild, or similar expensively-priced clones. Or the ProReplicas or Stam or Vintech clones that Ward has. I guess those are close enough for him.
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wa-414
Apr 10, 2017 16:25:33 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ragan on Apr 10, 2017 16:25:33 GMT -6
I posted over at Gearslutz: I got a chance to audition this mic this week. I will say it sounds very good especially for 499 dollars. The capsule however is not any kind of replica of a CK12 and shouldn't be marketed that way. It is a very good sounding edge terminated K67 type similar to a dual sided Teal capsule. There's nothing to be ashamed of about this as I said, it sounded very good. They did not have an AKG 414EB present so I can't tell you how true a recreation sound wise it is. Ward I am in agreement with you on this. When i was approached I asked them not to do it. Hey Tim. What were the circumstances when you examined the capsule? Did you get a demo WA-414? Cause what you're saying doesn't jive with what I had heard from Bryce originally as far as your claim that they're using a K67. Granted that was awhile ago and I haven't heard or seen the WA-414 myself. I'm curious how you got one onto your bench and if you have any other thoughts after taking it apart and examining it.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 10, 2017 16:33:49 GMT -6
and now for something completely different You may recall from the wa87 thread that while I respect the different views about the clone wars, my actual perspective is much more prosaic, what does it cost, what does it sound like and how does it add value to my set up is what concerns me.
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Post by timcampbell on Apr 10, 2017 17:11:04 GMT -6
Ragan I got to hear the WA14 at Franfurt Musikmesse. They would not let me open it. I asked about the capsule and was told it was posted on their website. I examined their pic and indeed could see from it that it isn't a CK12 but an edge terminated K67 type. I returned and asked them if this wasn't so. I took Bryce's partner on the show (I forget his name) over to 797's booth and showed him a similar capsule. He admitted, as did Bryce that it's from an asian capsule maker we all know. He agreed that it was similar but that they had let respected people test the capsule and that it sounded the same as the CK12 they tested it against. I think Bryce held fast to the fact that it is a CK12. Besides them stating on their info that it is their take on AKG's CK12 none of this matters to me. The mic sounds very good for a 500 dollar mic and may very well sound like a 414EB. Honestly I wouldn't mention any of this if you hadn't asked me. I believe their goal was to make the best sounding 414EB clone they could in this price range and they feel they have. I'm not trying to paint anyone as being sinister and I don't want to be portrayed that way. If you really need more proof I'll gladly disassemble one with pics here in June but I'd rather just go on my way and build more capsules.
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Post by ragan on Apr 10, 2017 17:38:42 GMT -6
Ragan I got to hear the WA14 at Franfurt Musikmesse. They would not let me open it. I asked about the capsule and was told it was posted on their website. I examined their pic and indeed could see from it that it isn't a CK12 but an edge terminated K67 type. I returned and asked them if this wasn't so. I took Bryce's partner on the show (I forget his name) over to 797's booth and showed him a similar capsule. He admitted, as did Bryce that it's from an asian capsule maker we all know. He agreed that it was similar but that they had let respected people test the capsule and that it sounded the same as the CK12 they tested it against. I think Bryce held fast to the fact that it is a CK12. Besides them stating on their info that it is their take on AKG's CK12 none of this matters to me. The mic sounds very good for a 500 dollar mic and may very well sound like a 414EB. Honestly I wouldn't mention any of this if you hadn't asked me. I believe their goal was to make the best sounding 414EB clone they could in this price range and they feel they have. I'm not trying to paint anyone as being sinister and I don't want to be portrayed that way. If you really need more proof I'll gladly disassemble one with pics here in June but I'd rather just go on my way and build more capsules. I see. I was more curious than anything. I just noticed your post here and on GS (along with the little ad for your capsule which I hear is excellent) and I was wondering how in depth your analysis was on the WA-414. So you're mostly going off the pic then. I wouldn't pretend to be a capsule expert or anything close to it, but I seem to recall a lengthy post by Dave Thomas about his and Peluso's CK12 style capsule. Something about 100+ holes instead of 80 that allowed them to manufacture it at high volume and some of the holes being conical or something like that. I'm sure we can get him to chime in because I just don't know that much about it. aamicrophones What makes it a K67 capsule in your mind, based on the site pic? It's obviously not center terminated. Honest question, what exactly is an edge terminated K67 and what differentiates it from a CK12 style? I have no dog in the fight. I have expensive gear, I have budget gear. I'm not dogmatic about any of it. When one manufacturer is posting about their competitors product, purporting to 'correct' them, it makes me curious to know the whole scoop. That's all.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 10, 2017 18:09:18 GMT -6
I've often wondered about the issues this thread has brought up. Being old school, brands were what you bought, there were no clones. I can understand if a company no longer exists and a great engineer wants to make something like it, but there are dozens of companies making API clones, Neve clones, Telefunken clones, Neumann clones, and on and on. There are new companies making these same name brands that aren't the original company too. Today's API and Telefunken USA come to mind. Their products seem good to me, but are they considered fake too?
So, where does the line begin that shows a manufacturer has crossed over to the hyping/scamming side of things?
I guess for me, it certainly crosses over if false claims are made. I've enjoyed many Warm products for years now, and so far, Bryce and company have been up front about everything, and have been reliable and helpful. Maybe they missed a beat on this one, I don't know, but considering their track record, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 10, 2017 18:13:13 GMT -6
I'm curious about Ragan's question too..
"What makes it a K67 capsule in your mind, based on the site pic? It's obviously not center terminated. Honest question, what exactly is an edge terminated K67 and what differentiates it from a CK12 style?"
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Post by timcampbell on Apr 10, 2017 18:21:04 GMT -6
When we are discussing CK12 capsules we usually mean AKG's vintage "brass" capsule. That would be built to the exact dimensions and properties as the original. Most importantly it would have 2 internal chambers and a very complex, asymmetrical delay network. The picture from Warm Audio's site is a similar capsule from chinese manufacturers we have seen for around 10 years. Here's a pic from Dave Thomas that's a couple of years old showing at least 7 or 8 identical capsules, none of which are chambered. He has often extolled the virtues of these capsules and shown as best he could that these capsules sound very close to CK12's and are sometimes preferred. Just for talking points you can see from my profile pic the hole layout of a CK12 and it is dissimilar to the hole layout of Warm Audio's capsule. I am in no way inferring that Warm Audio's capsule does or does not sound like a CK12 just that it's physically different. At the price of the WA14 I wouldn't expect it to be the same. The cheapest CK12's start at well over 300 dollars apiece, far too expensive for a 500 dollar mic. Not ad just want to make sure if someone posts about my capsule that at least the info is correct.
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Post by rob61 on Apr 10, 2017 18:43:05 GMT -6
Here is an original capsule as mounted in the AKG C-12.
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 10, 2017 18:53:51 GMT -6
It's funny how I never see people levying the same criticism in threads about the Retro 176, Sta-Level, UTA Unfairchild, or similar expensively-priced clones. +1000 even better still is when you see people make reproductions that cost even more than the original or authorized re-issues. Cartec Audio's Pultec comes to mind, as well as some of the hand-made 1176 reproductions, some of which even have fine cocobolo faceplates. I've even seen some API reproductions that outpriced the original API (original Avedis 312 comes to mind) and some of the BAE and Heritage stuff may outprice AMS Neve. Beautiful stuff all of it and I wish I had all of it in my rack; just saying.
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wa-414
Apr 10, 2017 18:56:01 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ragan on Apr 10, 2017 18:56:01 GMT -6
When we are discussing CK12 capsules we usually mean AKG's vintage "brass" capsule. That would be built to the exact dimensions and properties as the original. Most importantly it would have 2 internal chambers and a very complex, asymmetrical delay network. The picture from Warm Audio's site is a similar capsule from chinese manufacturers we have seen for around 10 years. Here's a pic from Dave Thomas that's a couple of years old showing at least 7 or 8 identical capsules, none of which are chambered. He has often extolled the virtues of these capsules and shown as best he could that these capsules sound very close to CK12's and are sometimes preferred. Just for talking points you can see from my profile pic the hole layout of a CK12 and it is dissimilar to the hole layout of Warm Audio's capsule. I am in no way inferring that Warm Audio's capsule does or does not sound like a CK12 just that it's physically different. At the price of the WA14 I wouldn't expect it to be the same. The cheapest CK12's start at well over 300 dollars apiece, far too expensive for a 500 dollar mic. Not ad just want to make sure if someone posts about my capsule that at least the info is correct. Again, I'm very curious, what makes you believe Warm's is a K67?
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wa-414
Apr 10, 2017 19:12:50 GMT -6
Post by kcatthedog on Apr 10, 2017 19:12:50 GMT -6
Here is an original capsule as mounted in the AKG C-12. love the point to point soldering !
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Post by timcampbell on Apr 10, 2017 19:14:16 GMT -6
Ragan I don't really want to drag this out. I thought my explanation was pretty clear.The Warm capsule has a backplate like this without chambers. If you insist I'll post some internal pics as soon as the mic is on the street. Here is a CK12 backplate chamber and delay network:
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wa-414
Apr 10, 2017 19:14:43 GMT -6
Post by EmRR on Apr 10, 2017 19:14:43 GMT -6
FAIR POINT. I'm just tired of all the worshipping of carbon copiers. Ok, pseudo carbon copiers who take lots of shortcuts and make false claims. How's that? It's funny how I never see people levying the same criticism in threads about the Retro 176, Sta-Level, UTA Unfairchild, or similar expensively-priced clones. Oh, I certainly have, but no one listens to me. : ) It's so simple to make many of those do what they did originally, plus more, yet people want the EXACT ORIGINAL without PAYING for an original, and most don't ever hear them side by side to know they ain't quite, er, the same. In which case....it's something else.....so why not just look around at all the 'something else's' when buying?
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 10, 2017 19:19:50 GMT -6
Just a real quick reply here for anyone curious about our capsules... I have a great deal of respect for Tim and for anyone who has spent years to master the art of handcrafting difficult capsules, and appreciate and believe his good words on the sound of our WA-14. I think he understands where we are coming from and vice versa. I just want to clarify that our capsule is not a modified K67 capsule. Not that such a capsule can't be made to sound great (it can, and obviously a traditional K87/67 type is what is in our WA-87); but just as a point of fact, that is not what we did here with the WA-14. The capsule variant we are using might most accurately be identified as a CEK12, which is to say a CK12 that has been re-engineered for more cost effective mass production. These capsules have essentially the same response as a working CK12 but fewer parts and are easier to manufacture consistently. The hole pattern is not the same as an original CK12, and other things are simplified as well, but a CEK12 is engineered to achieve the same end result as a CK12. The capsules we use are developed for us in Australia with a lot of input and back-and-forth from us here in Texas, and assembled in a small shop in Asia. The people we use are also used by a few other smaller mic manufacturers who tend to be on the more expensive side and do less quantities. I would not call the operation 'mass production' in the large scale sense of the word at all; but I also wouldn't call it individual handcrafting either, as that would be cost prohibitive... We're pretty pleased with these capsules and the mics so far, and think it would be really hard to beat their value for the money. What we set out to do with the microphone line was to give people far more for their money than what they'd been accustomed to getting at similar prices. Putting a $400+ traditional, individually handcrafted original CK12 in each microphone is probably not even possible at those quantities, and might triple or more the retail cost of the mic. I think most would agree the modern CEK12 gets the job done admirably; and of course anyone who has talked to Bryce or myself know how picky we each are about sound, that we don't put something out if we are not 100% pleased.
Chad/Warm Audio
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Post by timcampbell on Apr 10, 2017 19:27:46 GMT -6
I agree with Chad. I refer to K67 type only as a description of the way it's manufactured with a solid backplate and Neumann style delay network.
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Post by m03 on Apr 10, 2017 19:29:51 GMT -6
It's funny how I never see people levying the same criticism in threads about the Retro 176, Sta-Level, UTA Unfairchild, or similar expensively-priced clones. Oh, I certainly have, but no one listens to me. : ) It's so simple to make many of those do what they did originally, plus more, yet people want the EXACT ORIGINAL without PAYING for an original, and most don't ever hear them side by side to know they ain't quite, er, the same. In which case....it's something else.....so why not just look around at all the 'something else's' when buying? Most people don't have the tens of thousands of dollars necessary to spend buying up dozens of pieces of equipment to learn what does or doesn't work for them, nor do they have the luxury of countless hours to test every aspect of every model, so they default to industry standards or close approximations, where years of experience and documentation can save them all that extra effort. Plus, some would rather have modern reproductions or variants of those original things, so as to avoid the potential maintenance and downtime associated with keeping ancient beasts running reliably.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 10, 2017 19:36:05 GMT -6
Those are all nice theories, and theories they mostly remain. If the clones "aren't", then they don't have one. Might as well free yourself to try other things.
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Post by m03 on Apr 10, 2017 20:29:16 GMT -6
Those are all nice theories, and theories they mostly remain. If the clones "aren't", then they don't have one. Might as well free yourself to try other things. It also entirely possible for those clones to be superior to the original product, which is a point that I feel like some people miss, especially in a field where subjective experience appears to reign supreme. It would be just as foolish to dismiss something because it could fall into the realm of being considered a clone, as it would be to dismiss something from consideration just because it's innovative and falls into uncharted territory.
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