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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 15, 2016 11:49:14 GMT -6
I was 17, my band Pandora recorded a demo at the loft of the drummer of a band called Granicus in Cleveland in the 70's. In 1997, Arf Arf Records released it as a CD, after some journalists found the tape and Plexi demos in a drawer, listened out of curiosity, and fell in love with it. I only found out about it this year. The thing is, they claimed they tried everything they could to find us, but had little to go on. They say they all loved it so much they released it anyway, not knowing our names, but knowing a little from what the guy who recorded it remembered. We had copyrighted the songs back then. I checked at US Copyright's office, and found no record of there being a copyright of the Sound Recording, so I just now copyrighted the Sound Recording. My dilemma is that I need to hire a lawyer to contact Arf Arf and secure the masters and our rights. I don't want to get heavy or become litigious, these guys loved the music, and it might never have seen the light of day otherwise. Another company has contacted me about releasing this as a high quality vinyl release. I'd love that!! Where I'm uncertain is that it will probably cost more in legal fees than the album will ever earn, but you never know what might come of something like this, so I think I have to follow through. There was a small cult following online who were crazy about the CD and blogged about it, and we were written about in Rolling Stone, but I haven't found the article yet. I've had mixed feelings about this. On one level, something lost in the sands of time resurfaced, and I feel validated about how good we were. I always knew that band could have been a monster success. If a good producer had taken us in, rearranged and shortened the tracks, gave the singer the time to refine the vocals, I think we might have reached an Aerosmith level of success. We were offered 3 record deals, and our manager managed to negotiate us right out of the deals. The drummer, Frank LaRocca and bass player, Buz Verno went on to play with Cherry Vanilla, and then joined the David Johansen Band, doing 4 LP's. tours and TV shows. Frank moved on to play with Jon Waite and Tom Petty, and won a Grammy as the producer of the soundtrack for the movie Philadelphia. The singer Rick Prince worked with Mick Jones of Foreigner for a long time, and now does gigs in Fla. with former members of Rod Stewart's bands. One more strange thing, since they didn't know who we were or have any photos, the cartoon artwork they came up with had striking resemblance to us. The bass player had thick, dark curly hair, the drummer had helmet head dark hair, my hair was much lighter then it is now, and the cartoon drawing captures this almost as if they had a picture to draw from. It would make anyone suspicious. I'm curious to hear all your thoughts on this. Here's a link to sample all the tracks: www.allmusic.com/album/space-amazon-mw0000051028www.arfarfrecords.com/arfarf/records/aa64.htmlPandora Attachments:
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 15, 2016 12:24:30 GMT -6
A lawyer might take on the case on a contingency. Maybe joelhamilton can tell us a little more since he's a recovering lawyer. Unfortunately, you might be screwed...profits were probably less than its worth for a lawyer. I had a song that I pitched to a band...the a&r loved it...then they rewrite the song with the same song title and it's the name of their newest album. Nothing I can really do about it. It's a dirty, dirty business. But with this being your actual recordings, you might have a good case. |
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Post by EmRR on Nov 15, 2016 12:33:16 GMT -6
Did any of the other guys know, and when did they know it?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 15, 2016 12:52:37 GMT -6
No one knew. The singer Rick Prince contacted me as soon as he heard of it. The journalist behind all this, Doug Sheppard searched out Rick after hearing an album Rick had done before this with his band Plum Nelly, and Doug recognized the voice. There's an upcoming article about this coming soon. It's all cool as long as we retain and regain our rights. In the same way this came out, someone might hear this and think it's perfect for a tv show or movie, and I just want to be sure it all comes back to us. All the guys were a little older than me. Unfortunately, Frank LaRocca passed away a few years ago. He became a big shot A&R guy, and he certainly would've had the connections to handle this properly.
I wanted to put a thumbs up "like" on John's post above, but it's too much of a bummer for that.
I was once hired to write and produce a jingle for a NY area big box electronics store. I submitted a four song demo, they chose one, I produced it with union members, I was an AFTRA Signatore then. I was shopping for a car radio, popped on a bunch of different radios all tuned to different channels to compare, and there was my commercial, but wait for it.. it wasn't the commercial I produced, they used one of the other songs on from the demo which they had no rights to.
Fortunately AFTRA had clout then, and got it removed from the airwaves within 48 hours. I went to the multi-millionaire owners and offered to give them the commercial they used for $3500. Mainly because the union fees I'd have to pay for al the musicians and the announcer would be around $2,000, and I felt $1500 was a fair amount for a buyout. They unceremoniously sent out of their office. These guys were loaded, buy enjoyed denying me and all the great players on the commercial a little money for a great job.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 15, 2016 12:52:39 GMT -6
Your probably getting screwed out of next to nothing, a good lawyer who's going to handle this type of case is going to bill you hourly so this is probably going to cost you more in the long run!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 15, 2016 12:54:19 GMT -6
That's my point exactly. So, I'll have to find a better way. I'll probably consult with a lawyer first, then try to handle it myself.
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Post by jamesa on Nov 15, 2016 14:41:09 GMT -6
Can you contact Arf Arf without a lawyer and tell them you own the rights to the recordings and you would like to get the masters? Maybe they'll just hand it over? If they say no, then just give them a friendly heads up that your lawyer will be contacting them soon. Chances are they won't be interested in incurring any of their own legal fees to fight back.
Apologies if I missed something or have no idea what I'm talking about!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 15, 2016 15:03:16 GMT -6
Thanks Jamesa, that's most likely what I'll do. I just need to talk with the lawyer before calling, just to be sure I don't make a mistake.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 15, 2016 16:25:53 GMT -6
I would think the issue here is getting paid what you were due for any money they made off of using these recordings
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 15, 2016 16:43:11 GMT -6
You're right John. Even if we have only $1000 coming, we should get it. I think they sold around 1000 copies. So it's possible there's even a little more than that coming to us.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 15, 2016 17:13:24 GMT -6
Thanks Jamesa, that's most likely what I'll do. I just need to talk with the lawyer before calling, just to be sure I don't make a mistake. Talk to a Lawyer first, one who deals with copyrights & entertainment law. The lawyer may say a letter is a good idea, but a Letter on a Law firms letterhead will carry more weight! |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 15, 2016 17:16:05 GMT -6
To lighten up the tension, do you remember recording this MJB? It sounds awesome, don't get me wrong. But somehow I'm reminded of the days when great art was created through the use of "art making" substances??  As always, your good friend, Cowboy |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 15, 2016 17:57:54 GMT -6
To lighten up the tension, do you remember recording this MJB? It sounds awesome, don't get me wrong. But somehow I'm reminded of the days when great art was created through the use of "art making" substances?? As always, your good friend, Cowboy Slap Delay or Tape Delay on the lead vocal? |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 15, 2016 18:25:44 GMT -6
Martin,
Contact the label, you stated they are supposed to be fans...
If this is true, they will do the right thing!
(hopefully ?)
Once again it's a small world, as I was Cherry's Sound man, & recording guy back then Did sound for her with Frankie, Buzz & eventually Louie Lepore on Guitar...
Members would come and go, but I hung on for a while, doing recordings, and Live sound for her at places likes Max's Kansas City, CBGB's, Great Gildersleeves, Tracks, Snafu, Hurrahs, Privates, The original Ritz, and many, many, more I can't even think about right now.
Worked a lot of gigs for Main Man Management, with Tony Zenetta and Maxx Macari...
Usually small last minute city gigs for their artists, David Bowie, Mick Ronson, Ian Hunter, Iggy Pop, and the like.
Was a great time to be involved in the music scene in Manhattan.
Good luck buddy, I think they'll do the right thing.
(if not, I could always call Uncle Carmine)
Just sayin....
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Post by yotonic on Nov 15, 2016 18:44:35 GMT -6
You're better off supporting the love they are showing and hope it opens other opportunities. Otherwise they aren't gonna put a ring on it. More upside enjoying the attention and spreading the love.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 15, 2016 19:19:42 GMT -6
I didn't mean to give the wrong impression, this has been an amazing surprise. Considering I was 17, (but going on 50), I'm proud of what we'd done. I only wish we'd made the record this was the demo for. The demo was all live in a loft, with just a couple of lead guitar overdubs.
I'm all for connecting with Arf Arf and expect something good to come of it. I just want to be sure our rights are secure.So far, it looks like I've gotten the Sound Recording rights, and we had the original music copyrights, so all we need is an understanding with Arf Arf, but we may have to make up a contract with them, so lawyers will get paid at some point.
Swurveman, I'm pretty sure that was a tape delay.
Cowboy, there was definitely some artistic enhancement going on! I was always too serious about getting somewhere to go hardcore, though some of the other guys were courting trouble. It's actually kinda strange how determined I was then.
When I look at students who are the same age as I was then, they look like baby lambs in comparison. Before this band, I had had a bar band that had a residency at a Jazz/Blues club called Dodgers Bar in downtown Brooklyn. At that time it was a mostly black neighborhood, and I was a 16 year old lone white face. I got away with being underage because I was tall, looked older, and knew how to keep it on the lowdown. I used to put rum in my coke bottle. Those cats there were true aficionados, and they'd glare at me with a look that said, son, if you don't have some chops, we're gonna kick your ass outta here. I got along beautiful with everyone there, but I sure practiced a lot then ;-)
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Post by Ward on Nov 15, 2016 20:13:01 GMT -6
You could just try the friendly approach! I'd call them up and have the basic conversation opening with "Hey it's MJB from Pandora. We're so happy that this music is out there and I wanted to thank you for that. Because we didn't connect beforehand, we didn't get a chance to work out a royalty scheme. So I was wondering how yo'd like to handle it. Cause if we got our business people, managers, agents, lawyers and such involved it would probably be too expensive for any of us. And nobody wants that. This is too awesome a happening to make it too tangly." Just my thoughts! Just tonight I had to review all my catalog, royalties and credits stuff and had to reach out to an artist who used 6 of my co-writes without doing the proper paperwork. It was resolved amicably with an invitation to join him for some writing for his next album, this Sunday. And he's asked me to produce it as well. The handshake is more effective than the upper cut.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2016 20:26:31 GMT -6
You could just try the friendly approach! I'd call them up and have the basic conversation opening with "Hey it's MJB from Pandora. We're so happy that this music is out there and I wanted to thank you for that. Because we didn't connect beforehand, we didn't get a chance to work out a royalty scheme. So I was wondering how yo'd like to handle it. Cause if we got our business people, managers, agents, lawyers and such involved it would probably be too expensive for any of us. And nobody wants that. This is too awesome a happening to make it too tangly." Ward, You're hired  This is a great story Martin. I hope everyone does the right thing here , but I'm guessing this is the music business ... You may get a story line in the next episode of Vinyl tho Great song, dodgy mullets, must be the 70's ... |
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Post by Ward on Nov 15, 2016 20:35:03 GMT -6
Funny you mention mullets, @paddyc. It's the natural hair style my follicles seek out. the woman has to push me into the barber's chair to keep the old rocker down. And you're probably right about the 70s. That's where they started, not in the 80s. Johnkenn's hair looks great when it grows out too. And @sinsay's got the best long hair of any of us. |
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Post by Ward on Nov 15, 2016 20:38:40 GMT -6
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Post by EmRR on Nov 15, 2016 20:47:16 GMT -6
Steve Marriot rules. Good luck Martin!
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Post by jjinvegas on Nov 16, 2016 6:48:57 GMT -6
Yeah, I think treading very gingerly about what you might be entitled to is the best path if you don't want to put a buzzzkill on a feel-good--fifteen-minutes-of-fame forty years too late story that is just unusual enough that it might float some interest in what Pandora's members have in their box now. (couldn't resist, sorry) Most artists who sell a thousand CDs for a small label aren't ringing up Price Waterhouse for an independent audit, they are calling a priest or guru to learn some prayers in hopes that they get to make another. After mastering, artwork manufacturing, promotion, in a normal small advance type of deal, you would owe the record company, although you would never pay nor would they expect you to. I would advise trying to work the angle of the very unusual path the record took to become public, after some kind of deal is in place, promote it. It is a very cool story with a happy ending, until you get some mouthpiece working on contingency who has an incentive to gather all your lost revenue. It has upside, keep that as the guiding principle and everything that might come out of it is pure gravy....
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 16, 2016 10:18:10 GMT -6
All great advice, thanks everyone. JJinvegas, welcome to the forum!
I will most certainly begin with appreciation and good will when I contact the label. I do need to get all my paperwork in order though. I'm speaking now with another label specializing in high end vinyl packages who want to put out an album. So it's possible that with some articles coming out, and a simultaneous vinyl promotion, this may find traction in the underground and spill over into something current, like a placement on a TV show, or a reunion tour.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 16, 2016 10:24:18 GMT -6
I just remembered something funny about the track I posted "Seventeen". That was done live, no overdubs at all. I was heading into the bridge when I noticed a metal slide sitting on top of an amp. I'd never held one in my hand before. I'd only seen people playing them on TV. When the solo came, I impulsively grabbed it, risking ruining the take, played the solo and let it go after I was finished. So not only was that impromptu, it was the very first time I'd held a slide.
Nothing like a vintage Marshall 100 and a 68' Les Paul with a 59' neck, eh?
Meanwhile, thinking of Steve Marriot, this track sure proves he was an influence:
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 16, 2016 10:27:12 GMT -6
I just remembered something funny about the track I posted "Seventeen". That was done live, no overdubs at all. I was heading into the bridge when I noticed a metal slide sitting on top of an amp. I'd never held one in my hand before. I'd only seen people playing them on TV. When the solo came, I impulsively grabbed it, risking ruining the take, played the solo and let it go after I was finished. So not only was that impromptu, it was the very first time I'd held a slide. Meanwhile, thinking of Steve Marriot, this track sure proves he was an influence: The boldness of youth! Oh to be young and stupid again! |
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