ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 14, 2017 7:15:50 GMT -6
I assumed UA purchased UREI and held the rights/assets and started selling the reissues. Is it just that the patent ran out and UA ran with it? Was the Purple around before the UA reissue? The patents ran out a LONG time ago - before Purple started production. Unlike copyright, a patent is only good for something like 17 years. (Why is why some companies don't file patents and rely on "trade secrets".) I believe that it's possible to get a limited patent extension (and only if) you make "significant improvements" to the original design. I don't know whether the extension then covers the complete, improved design, or if it only covers the upgrades though, nor do I know the duration of the extension of what constitutes a "sufficient upgrade". Could this be why there are so any revisions of the 1176? Who knows? The current UA didn't need to purchase UREI from Harman to get the right because the patents were long expired and in the public domain. The only thing to be obtained by purchasing UREI from Harman is the name "UREI". Not a huge amount of value there. Yeah that's why I said they bought the Name, that was all they needed, Last I heard they only own the rights to UA & techtronix, Harman/ Samsung stilll owns UREI for DJ mixers. The other reason some small companies give for not getting patents is your secret sauce becomes public record and others can engineer around it, add in the fact that the holder gets the honor and expense of defending it why bother when there are countries where it is meaning less.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 14, 2017 7:50:52 GMT -6
Do we know anything about where the parts in the KT are sourced from ? I can certainly vouch for the Warm pre and after sales support: excellent ! Yeah, China. All the Music Group stuff is being built in China. I have to imagine that the "Midas" transformers are Chinese too, since the Midas consoles are also made in China (at least mine is). Somewhat interesting little article here... www.audioxpress.com/article/klark-teknik-introduces-homage-1176-kt-classic-compressor
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 14, 2017 7:56:05 GMT -6
thx, but that article (?) reads like a quasi PR release
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 14, 2017 8:13:18 GMT -6
thx, but that article (?) reads like a quasi PR release I thought the above quote from the article was interesting. New factory in China. R&D, Sales, Marketing, and support still based where the original brands were based. Obviously the article is a PR thing, but I think it's somewhat interesting.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 14, 2017 8:44:11 GMT -6
yes the state of the art reference was certainly interesting. Once some are out in the wild guess we will get some popped top shots and then we will see the actual build quality?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 14, 2017 8:46:56 GMT -6
yes the state of the art reference was certainly interesting. Once some are out in the wild guess we will get some popped top shots and then we will see the actual build quality? Yeah, we already have that. I posted an album on page 2 of the thread... imgur.com/a/rwMaP
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 14, 2017 9:04:49 GMT -6
ah thx !
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 14, 2017 9:07:17 GMT -6
hmm input/output trannies say designed and engineered in UK but is that true or are they manufactured in China ? Or do we actually know ?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 14, 2017 9:13:17 GMT -6
hmm input/output trannies say designed and engineered in UK but is that true or are they manufactured in China ? Or do we actually know ? I think all the Midas and KT stuff is "designed and engineered in UK", but "Made in China".
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Post by ragan on Jun 14, 2017 9:32:49 GMT -6
hmm input/output trannies say designed and engineered in UK but is that true or are they manufactured in China ? Or do we actually know ? Not mutually exclusive, a la Apple, just using marketing-speak to obfuscate.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2017 11:31:35 GMT -6
I paid $385 for a used Klark 76. I don't care what it's made out of (including the Midas branded (probably) Chinese transformers), it sounds good and the price is right. This unit will make my tracks sound better at a reasonable price. What more can you ask for? Thats what I wanted to know, cheers. In your view is it much different to the Warm as some are suggesting? Point of interest - I read somewhere that it was the poorer quality trafos on the original model that helped it's sound. Not sure if that's true or not.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 14, 2017 12:17:31 GMT -6
I paid $385 for a used Klark 76. I don't care what it's made out of (including the Midas branded (probably) Chinese transformers), it sounds good and the price is right. This unit will make my tracks sound better at a reasonable price. What more can you ask for? Thats what I wanted to know, cheers. In your view is it much different to the Warm as some are suggesting? Point of interest - I read somewhere that it was the poorer quality trafos on the original model that helped it's sound. Not sure if that's true or not. Here's my comment from page 2...
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Post by drbill on Jun 14, 2017 12:21:57 GMT -6
hmm input/output trannies say designed and engineered in UK but is that true or are they manufactured in China ? Or do we actually know ? Not mutually exclusive, a la Apple, just using marketing-speak to obfuscate. IMO, designed and engineered in the US or UK, and manufactured in China - with experienced hands on control by the parent company during manufacturing and done right - is quite possibly the best of both worlds. And from what I can discern, it sounds like that's what they are doing. Face it, manufacturing in the US or EU other than small-run boutique items is virtually extinct. The Music Group has the POSSIBILITY to blow the doors off competition and put em in the ground because they can control all aspects of design and build. I mean, a 1 million sq ft facility with the manpower to run it with experienced design in the west? I'm sure that is a harsh reality for their competition, but it is what it is. It IS hard to compete against that kind of infrastructure, no matter who you are or what you design. If they WANT to do it right and create (re-create) a quality brand, it certainly sounds like The Music Group has the resources.
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Post by aamicrophones on Jun 14, 2017 12:30:34 GMT -6
I might be wrong but it was my understanding that the Kark Teknik engineers had a lot to do with some of the Pro Audio Behringer designs. The designers are from Europe but the gear is made in China at "Behringer City". I can't comment on the Behringer/KT 1176 but I have a WA76 and I have a original 1176F and I prefer the WA76 to the original UREI. The sound of the WA76 is as good if not better, its quieter by a db or two and much easier to service. Now, the 1176F has a transformerless balanced input which worked better with unbalanced insert points than the 1176D with its transformer coupled 600 ohm input impedance. Bryce also addressed the problem with the 1176D loading down unblanced inserts points in some mixers. The WA76 has 1% precision resistors and higher tolerance capacitors than the original 1176. I also believe old Midas boards used Sowter transformers. I worked on an older Pro 2C about 15 years ago and it has Sowter transformers in it. The 1176D has a class "A" output circuit. the 1176F has a Class A/B output circuit. Not sure if the 1176E was Class A or Class A/B. I have never seen a schematic for the 1176E. I owned two 1176D compressors, 1-1176LN and 3-1176F compressors but the 1176E must have been revised really quickly back in the day as I have never seen one. This is a rough mix of a live recording I did with a Behringer UFX1604 mixer. However, I patched the insert sends directly into my RADAR converters at 48khz/24 bit. I don't think this sounds "offensive" in anyway. I would have loved to use my MT8016 transformer coupled preamps but I didn't have any finished when this quick project came up. I bypassed the EQ in the Behringer by coming out of the insert send. There is no EQ on this recording except for some LP filtering on the upright bass to reduce cymbal leakage into upright microphone. There is a highly modified LA4 compressor on the saxophones set at 2:1 as he tended to wander off the microphones and I didn't want to ride the fader for a reference mix. The Behringer is pretty much a disosable mixer once it starts to fail at $700 its most likely more cost effective to buy another one as its nearly an 5 hour job to take one apart and put it back together and at $65/hr shop time that almost 1/2 the price of a new one. At 6 minutes or so you can hear how the Behringer handles piano, bass and drums as there are some Solo's starting at that point. www.dropbox.com/s/o59cmuih934a6sn/ZOOM0012_Tr12.WAV?dl=0Cheers, Dave
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 14, 2017 12:53:02 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 14, 2017 12:56:02 GMT -6
Well, "boutique" cloners hopefully will do a better job than a cut rate Chinese mass production job using cheap bulk purchased generic components. And K-T is is NOT an indie, one or two man "boutique" operation. This isn't a labor of love it's a labor of profit, milking the market as hard as possible. Even in the post you quoted, I mention how I'm not talking about KT. We get it, you're upset that KT isn't what it used to me. You've made it perfectly clear in 2 threads now. You're beating a dead horse. As Eric has said a number of times, the market for KT has dried up. Permanent install, live sound, analog processing is dying. Digital boards are taking over the market and providing most of the processing. Either KT shut it's doors completely, or they get swallowed up by Music Group and stay open as a shell of themselves and try some products with more general mass appeal. When their 76 and eq hit the market, they were selling at the same prices as Warm, and probably not selling many. They seem to have since dropped their prices, could be temporary or permanent, but the new price point is more appealing for a "new (in the home studio world)" company without a track record. I paid $385 for a used Klark 76. I don't care what it's made out of (including the Midas branded (probably) Chinese transformers), it sounds good and the price is right. What brand of 76 should I have purchased hashed in your eyes? The Warm (also Chinese made, so I doubt it), the UA at 4x the price, a vintage unit at 10x or more? This unit will make my tracks sound better at a reasonable price. What more can you ask for? Well, at the price you paid I would have gone for the KT as well as long as it sounds good. It certain will look better in the rack than the Warm (i'm not not a huge fan of audio gear in funny, I strongly favor black, silver and grey and don't really mind dark brown or dark blue, but that's about it. However you don't listen to the paint, so...) My usual purchasing MO has been to wait until a real original comes along at the kind of price a store would pay for it and jump on it fast but my financial resources (never really great) have become very restricted in recent months, which seriously restricts my ability to move fast on unusually good deals. Since I already have around 15 or 16 channels of compression, including a couple of pretty modern pieces (Daking, A-Designs) and an assortment of vintage stuff (Spectra-Sonics, Allison Research, ADR Scamp, etc.) I don't really feel pressure to acquire more unless the price is right. About keeping the brand "alive", I dunno. Emotionally I'd probably rather Uli establish another brand for his vintage clone business and leave the K-T name unsullied, but that's just me. The article said "But for The Music Group, that will be the philosophy, apparently - introducing products in market segments, with its most recognizable brand. So, dynamic processing = Klark Teknik.", which I find somewhat amusing as I don't recall K-T ever really bei8ng associated with dynamics processing. In the group of brands loosely associated with Midas in touring processing, dynamics processing was always associated with BSS, but I guess Uli couldn't buy that name. As far all the flak Uli tyypically gets for copying, most is based (and very rightly so) on his historical penchant for copying current products of other companies with little or no regard for for the existence of a currently active patent. That's piracy and it's both illegal and immoral. I'd much rather see him in the vintage clone market where he's not violating the intrellectual property rights of others (although I imagine the smaller indie clone makers are not exactly thrilled to see him entering their market.) If I was purchasing a 76 clone NEW, however, I'd most likely go with Warm despite the color of the paint. I like not being tied to a cheap switching PS mounted inside the case. I don't know if Warm's external is linear or switching, but it's easy enough to swap out in case of a problem. I have zero confidence in Uli's customer support being in the UK, especially since since with the factory and attendant parts warehouse is in China. My guess is that it's probably just a phone bank manned with the sort of drones equipped with a troubleshooting FAQ who man CS phone banks at any number of of big corporations in many consumer product companies. It would be interesting to see a roster of exactly which employees are left from the old company. As to "What more can I ask for?", well, I could ask for a million dollars - in fact why not make it 10 million as long as I'm at it? My chances of getting either aree about the same...
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 14, 2017 13:01:56 GMT -6
Dupe, sorry.
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Post by ragan on Jun 14, 2017 13:58:21 GMT -6
Not mutually exclusive, a la Apple, just using marketing-speak to obfuscate. IMO, designed and engineered in the US or UK, and manufactured in China - with experienced hands on control by the parent company during manufacturing and done right - is quite possibly the best of both worlds. And from what I can discern, it sounds like that's what they are doing. Face it, manufacturing in the US or EU other than small-run boutique items is virtually extinct. The Music Group has the POSSIBILITY to blow the doors off competition and put em in the ground because they can control all aspects of design and build. I mean, a 1 million sq ft facility with the manpower to run it with experienced design in the west? I'm sure that is a harsh reality for their competition, but it is what it is. It IS hard to compete against that kind of infrastructure, no matter who you are or what you design. If they WANT to do it right and create (re-create) a quality brand, it certainly sounds like The Music Group has the resources. Yeah certainly. I've got a studio full of Warm and 3U stuff (along with some other "high end" stuff) so I've got nothing against Chinese manufacturing. In fact, I love it.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 14, 2017 14:14:16 GMT -6
IMO, designed and engineered in the US or UK, and manufactured in China - with experienced hands on control by the parent company during manufacturing and done right - is quite possibly the best of both worlds. And from what I can discern, it sounds like that's what they are doing. Face it, manufacturing in the US or EU other than small-run boutique items is virtually extinct. The Music Group has the POSSIBILITY to blow the doors off competition and put em in the ground because they can control all aspects of design and build. I mean, a 1 million sq ft facility with the manpower to run it with experienced design in the west? I'm sure that is a harsh reality for their competition, but it is what it is. It IS hard to compete against that kind of infrastructure, no matter who you are or what you design. If they WANT to do it right and create (re-create) a quality brand, it certainly sounds like The Music Group has the resources. Yeah certainly. I've got a studio full of Warm and 3U stuff (along with some other "high end" stuff) so I've got nothing against Chinese manufacturing. In fact, I love it. Well in principle I have nothing against China (other than the loss of jobs, but if people here are unwilling to support the US (and UK, etc) job market with their purchase decisions what can you do?), except for the question of parts quality and the fact that service support for Chinese built products is often difficult to nonexistent.
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Post by drbill on Jun 14, 2017 14:18:29 GMT -6
Yeah certainly. I've got a studio full of Warm and 3U stuff (along with some other "high end" stuff) so I've got nothing against Chinese manufacturing. In fact, I love it. Well in principle I have nothing against China (other than the loss of jobs, but if people here are unwilling to support the US (and UK, etc) job market with their purchase decisions what can you do?), except for the question of parts quality and the fact that service support for Chinese built products is often difficult to nonexistent.That's a manufacturer's decision, and really, has nothing to do with Chinese manufacture. And John, you're principles should be directed at the US and EU manufacturers who are moving their production off-shore - not at the Chinese. They are competing as best they can, and they are pretty good at it.
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Post by ragan on Jun 14, 2017 14:21:16 GMT -6
Well in principle I have nothing against China (other than the loss of jobs, but if people here are unwilling to support the US (and UK, etc) job market with their purchase decisions what can you do?), except for the question of parts quality and the fact that service support for Chinese built products is often difficult to nonexistent.That's a manufacturer's decision, and really, has nothing to do with Chinese manufacture. Exactly.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 14, 2017 14:33:09 GMT -6
ah the wa 76 is black am I misunderstanding something ? I'm good at that
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Post by reddirt on Jun 14, 2017 14:35:49 GMT -6
A sad irony of this whole Music Group thing is that Behringer got their big leg up by ripping off well established companies like Mackie / Boss etc and manufacturing those rip offs at Chinese manuf prices. After " colonising" the world in that way they now have the finance to buy out who they like and once again do what is to my mind, another rip off i.e. use the once proud names -Midas / KT etc to legitimise their product. That must be so galling to the people that sweated blood to make the original companies. Certainly those once proud names found it tough going in a digital world and probably would have died in the bum anyway but if any of us believe in integrity, scruples, right and wrong etc then we should see this for what it is.
As to the Warm / KT price issue; Music Group have the wherewithal to lose on product or at least make no profit for a time in order to dominate and possibly kill Warm. Again, scruples or lack thereof.
Further to that, we all would like a decent wage but in killing or undermining Western made product, Music group and any other ascendant cheap producer is part of the 'globilisation" ensuring that the idea of a decent wage as we once understood it is never going to be again - that's the new reality.
And whilst I'm on my high horse, disclosure: I have bought a Stam 87. Yes, it could be construed as hypocrisy but I (arguably) justify it by knowing that Joshua puts heart and soul into his product, attempting to improve it even and I'm willing to take a chance that his version obviates to some degree the issue for me (edginess) with current Neumann 87s which has previously stopped me buying one..
I'm obviously no expert but just adding a 2 cent opinion.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jun 14, 2017 14:41:16 GMT -6
So it's not ok for Behiringer but it's ok for Stam ?
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Post by reddirt on Jun 14, 2017 14:42:18 GMT -6
A quick P.S. Proper after sales service is worth paying for.
Cheers
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