|
Post by popmann on Oct 1, 2016 20:50:25 GMT -6
I'm always curious....as I look at the PC market, CPUs have mostly stalled at retail....this is the first generation of intel desktop class CPUs that don't outbench the last--they just run cooler and have more integrated graphics features really. Anyhow---I'm always curious how people are spending their CPU cycles.
I see people online bitching about how their 3 years old hexcore i7 is getting long in the tooth and needing them to render more than they want....ok....and I just wonder what it is....
The things I've run that I thought "whoa....WTF--not on THIS system" was the Abbey Road Plate reverbs....one of the newer 2cAudio reverbs--actually, they're all reverbs. In fact, I never had ANY CPU deficiency when I had my external hardware FX rack. Anyhoo....let's play "sell me on 24 cores of Xeon"....you have more CPU time in that box than you could hope to use for audio production, me thinks--but, try me. what's pushing your meek CPU over the edge in 2016? Or what WAS pushing it over the edge until you recently upgraded and now you're in sonic nirvana because of....?
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Oct 1, 2016 21:35:59 GMT -6
I'm running the last, fastest Mac tower here with 64G RAM, and all is good, but if you want to know what pushes it - it's the VI's. Omnisphere, huge Kontakt setups, etc.. They "push it" but with 24 cores I'm "OK". Still, more and faster would be better.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Oct 1, 2016 22:38:38 GMT -6
I was going to say excluding virtual instruments and virtual amps....and running the whole system on super small buffers to make those things playable inside the DAW....but, if that's what eating it, I have the answer I needed.
|
|
|
Post by sopwith on Oct 1, 2016 23:27:53 GMT -6
Uhe Diva and Klanghelm MJUC are my biggest CPU hogs.
|
|
|
Post by reddirt on Oct 2, 2016 1:19:27 GMT -6
So when things are getting tight and you're wanting to record more tracks are you doing a rough mix and importing it into a new project, recording in that project and then importing those extra takes back into the original multi-track? Sorry if I'm derailing your thread Pop - answer his queries folks and if you've got the time answer mine then.
Cheers, Ross
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Oct 2, 2016 2:38:52 GMT -6
Some NI synths are CPU Hogs some of the Uhe too but on the other side they sound great.... Rest of it is audio tracks and maybe some other VIs.
I rarely run out of the 8 cores and if, thanks to the great freeze function in logic which saved my day several times.
|
|
|
Post by chasmanian on Oct 2, 2016 2:46:34 GMT -6
Keyscape. glitches, drop outs. on a new Dell laptop with latest quadcore i5, 16 GB RAM. sample library on secondary SSD.
|
|
|
Post by jin167 on Oct 2, 2016 2:50:41 GMT -6
nebula...
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 2, 2016 7:08:20 GMT -6
Keyscape. glitches, drop outs. on a new Dell laptop with latest quadcore i5, 16 GB RAM. sample library on secondary SSD. are you using it within omnisphere or with its own interface?
|
|
|
Post by chasmanian on Oct 2, 2016 7:21:55 GMT -6
no. (I don't have Omnisphere.) and Keyscape doesn't have its own interface. so it needs a host. I use it in Reaper.
|
|
|
Post by explorer on Oct 2, 2016 10:49:20 GMT -6
Keyscape. glitches, drop outs. on a new Dell laptop with latest quadcore i5, 16 GB RAM. sample library on secondary SSD. Could be your audio interface - some perform better than others (eg RME). You may also be able to tweak the Keyscape and Reaper settings for better performance...
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Oct 2, 2016 11:07:33 GMT -6
VIs are MUCH more complicated multi-bottleneck applications that audio DSP.
I can make you a octo core Xeon machine that will choke running a specific VI if I gimp it in another way....I think it becomes....well, we get into geek land really quickly, but while a native audio mixer and it's AUDIO DSP run on a single process buffer....and are consistent load, ie you UberComp9000 doesn't take MORE resources as it has to do more gain reduction....VIs have always been troublesome for people running consumer computers who don't control say the CAS latency of their RAM or often mess with the channel configuration with home upgrades....who think storage (and RAM) is about an amount, and more is better....you, more than audio plugs need the UI on screen--and I can show you VSL's VIPro2 making some kind of OpenGL video call my old Geforce has trouble with but a stock intel integrated graphics does fine...which, that part COULD happen on an audio plug in, but frankly, how long do you sit with a compressor open? Vs a VI that needs constant interaction sot of by definition. I know as someone who started this long enough ago to have run a dedicated Gigastudio PC--load up your template and you rarely if ever need to look at that computer again for the session. As soon as companies like VSL made the change to "VIs"....that was over--they're designed to be interacted with....to be up on the screen while playing....it's a PIA to try to "set and forget" VIs.
I digress.
Reddirt, you freeze it, for audio. One button, instantly unfreeze and readjust as all the settings for all the plugs are retained....for instruments, you should be actually rendering them as audio files*. Your MIDI and proprietary project files aren't archive worthy. So, as soon as you get an instrument where it needs to be, you render it as audio files. Whether you keep/disable/chuck the MIDI stuff after is all up to your work ethos....but, for audio, I've done some mixes where I've frozen some things like the snare mic that typically has a whole chain of DSP including MPX, which is fairly heavy CPU. Mostly, I don't have to do a lot of that, though for audio.
*which I understand IS what freeze does in the background.....but, I mean render them as audio files in the same folder you have the live audio files with the same system of timestamps.
|
|
|
Post by chasmanian on Oct 2, 2016 11:47:32 GMT -6
my interface for Keyscape and new Dell laptop is an rme Babyface. it chokes, glitches, crackles alot!!! I've been down this road. I'm not pleased. but having been through it, I'm just resigned to it. to get an i7 for this Dell model was gonna take too much messing around, for me. and too much chance that things would go wrong. on the bright side, I can absolutely wail with abandon on Ravenscroft. I'm choosing to look on the bright side of life. hey........I feel a song coming on......
|
|
|
Post by rocinante on Oct 2, 2016 12:03:04 GMT -6
Kontakt and omnisphere eat cpu here too. 12 cores at 48 gigs but i use mostly outboard except for reverb. Some of the room reverbs can spike or lag. Klanghelm for me can also drag on stuff. Thats usually when i have another 12 plug-ins running though.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Oct 2, 2016 12:30:12 GMT -6
The i7 won't help.....unless there's ANOTHER aspect to the system that alleviates it's bottleneck.....and if the code is green--I can assure you they never tested in on a PC in Reaper....you know? They'll likely get that ironed out....unless there really IS a significant issue with the Dell....which sometimes there are. PC laptops are a HUGE crapshoot. Particularly for VIs.....which mostly aren't CPU bound.
If you want to test and see--turn the reverb off....turn any amp simulation off (for the EPs)....you could also try the miminal "live" install. I remember when BFD did a 128 layer sample set....and you could install 32, 64, or 128....of course I had to be a geek and try all three, right? I could FEEL (not hear) the difference in the 32 and 64 but between the 64 and 128 I could neither hear nor feel it--NOW, maybe with an actual drummer on a really nice eKit, the 128 would make a difference--I'm not suggesting it's a waste, just wasted on ME and my tapping beats on a keyboard....point being if the "live" version of Keyscapes plays smoothly and sounds 85% the same....that would be cool(er), right?
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 2, 2016 13:00:08 GMT -6
I mean the keyscape plugin vs the omnisphere plugin that can load the keyscape plugin so you can use either gui
|
|
|
Post by chasmanian on Oct 2, 2016 13:42:42 GMT -6
thank you for all of that popmann. super interesting excellent post.
and Chuck, I know nothing about omnisphere. but I do know that Keyscape needs a host that will play VST's. it will not play unless you load it into such.
and also, by the way, I have only checked out a small bit of all that it has. and even with the glitch thing, that of course is not good, I just played a preset called duo something or other.....I think its a combination of the LA Custom Piano and LA Custom Rhodes or some such (am I overusing the word such?) I like it so much, that it by itself is worth the price of the whole program. that said, for balance, I bought it in hopes that it would have the MOST extraordinary piano sounds. that is, regular acoustic piano sounds and such. oops, sorry. for me (this is just me.......ymmv), the piano sounds are just ok. really, I am not enthused about them at all and such. ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ok, nap time..... one more thing, Eric said they will be adding more stuff.........and I think he said acoustic pianos too.......
|
|
|
Post by donr on Oct 2, 2016 14:04:23 GMT -6
Anyone running another machine for VI's and intensive plugs? Is there any way to chain computers within a DAW? That'd be an awesome capability.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,817
|
Post by ericn on Oct 2, 2016 14:14:59 GMT -6
Anyone running another machine for VI's and intensive plugs? Is there any way to chain computers within a DAW? That'd be an awesome capability. Logic had that capability at one point, biggest problem was in order to use a plugin that's on the node, or secondary machine the plugin had to see a lic on both! that got expensive and problematic!
|
|
|
Post by svart on Oct 3, 2016 13:04:44 GMT -6
Most of the plugs I use are run on a DSP card, but some I run in VST wrappers and the worst offenders are always IR 'verbs, but I use them sparingly.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Oct 3, 2016 19:14:57 GMT -6
VIs are MUCH more complicated multi-bottleneck applications that audio DSP. Agreed. DSP wise, even though I'm not really relying on the hardware HDX DSP, I can't remember running out of "anything" - i/o, voices, tracks, hardware DSP, Native power, or anything else for years, and I've mixed some big stuff this last year or two. Close to 300 tracks on the new Disney Pirates thing last summer. No problems. The computer def slowed down a bit, but I didn't "run out" of anything. Actually, having enough tracks that I needed a 15 foot wide monitor was the worst of it. I actually feel that (VI's aside) computer power for mixing is more than enough for me right now. Even completely native. But with an HDX card or two it's breezing'.....
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Oct 3, 2016 20:40:50 GMT -6
The reason this comes up, as I look around at benchmarks--consumer computing seems to have found a spot in CPU power....Passmark's 3-4500 range. My TEN year old machine is a 2996 or something (no wonder it's held up so well for newer plugs/instruments)--and nearly the entire current "non Pro" Mac line falls between 3-4k. So, my guess is for the general public--in ten more years, that's how fast their computers will be. Granted, they will be embedded in their glasses or dockable phones or an earpiece or something--but THAT is the level of DSP power that seems to have become the settled standard....I think with something like that, developers will find it hard to DO more because their target market becomes such a small fraction of computer owners. DDR4 and PCIe HDs are getting closer to all running at a single speed...which will then become one chip....etc.... So, you can either learn to get what you need from that....or swim upstream with workstation class machines. donr ....Nuendo did it 15 year ago-I help a local friend set one up, I had ZERO desire to do it myself**....Logic's was allegedly slicker(never saw it)....but, honestly it's industry standard for composers for years. Racks of slave machines for the large orchestral VIs/samplers--one DAW to do the sequencing/recording in....but, the problem is a simple one--it's more expensive AND FAR more confusing to people than simply buying more resources in one machine. You're far better off getting a TDM rig in a G5 to do all your 96khz audio production (value what $1500 now?) and just buying inexpensive PCs to run as slaves running VIs. Basically--I have to either do some work on the old PC (it's had fans and drives teetering on death for a while and a HOT power supply.....or retire it and use the MacBook....or build a new machine which would have 4-5 times the CPU power of either of the other two options....but for...? I'm looking for the real world justification. **although I've always maintained a second machine for VIs. Now that happens to just be a Kronos....for years, it was a secondary PC running Gigastudio and other software instruments while sequencing on DP on a Mac and recording audio on an Akai DPS24--talk about convoluted--that particular three way was short lived.
|
|
|
Post by viciousbliss on Oct 4, 2016 2:34:07 GMT -6
MJUC in HQ is one of the worst for me. I do a lot of Rock and Metal and I notice those busy styles consume way more than Pop stuff. On a 50 track pop song I could use a lot more plugs than if I mixed a metal song using 3-4 rock band instrument tracks and 1-2 vocal tracks I recorded. Essence can use a lot. Waves DBX160 also uses a lot. I swear Tsar uses more than Altiverb 7. Satin makes the list, of course, but I think it uses less than MJUC or DBX160 by a good margin. This applies to when I was working at 44 and now when I'm working at 88. Decapitator can use a bit but sometimes it's not too bad. My cpu is an almost 5 year old I5. Was thinking of going for an HP Z800 in hopes that I could get at least 20% more cpu power. A lot of the time I'm barely able to get in everything I want. My other main plugs would be Autotune 8 in Flextune, CLA76, CLA2A, Fix Doubler or H910 or H3000, Primal Tap, Hornet Analog Stage, Sknote Strip V3, 1-2 instances of Altiverb, Ultrareverb, 2 API2500, Analog Channel, Pro Q2 in zero latency, few L1s, and then one instance of MJUC on the master fader. I spend a lot of time just doing 10 second offline bounces because nothing plays back unless I deactivate Essence, 1-4 Satins, and the MJUC. Occasionally deactivating other stuff and setting MJUC back to regular allows playback to go through.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Oct 6, 2016 13:26:50 GMT -6
I'm just amazed at how quickly I can max out the CPU meter in Cubase 8 on either my 7 year old Phenom II machine, or my brand-new i7 4790K machine with all the trappings. Even with pretty low track counts, and a UAD Duo. I guess I just like pushing the limits of the equipment. I'm going to have to start bouncing in place more often, I think, as I continue in this direction and as well working at higher sample rates. Hopefully hardware can start to take some of the burden also, as that gradually increases in my collection.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Oct 6, 2016 14:09:45 GMT -6
But, with what? I mean track counts are mostly irrelevant other that whatever secondary implication that you need DSP on everything....so, go into one of these "pushin it" projects--freeze all VIs. Not their mixer channels, but the VIs-so you're now mixing them as audio tracks....set your buffer to 1024+....does it still push your system? I don't know the benchmarks on the AMD, but a 4790k is literally FOUR of my machines rolled into one in terms of DSP power....literally what I'm looking for is to sell myself on what sonics another 3 of my machines CAN bring to the studio....
|
|