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Post by ChaseUTB on Sept 30, 2016 18:41:48 GMT -6
I agree. Warm Audio is very upfront regarding their product's components and their origin/ source. I am not inferring anything negative and don't believe Warm is trying to hide anything On another note, im actually gassing for this mic as is and the RGOness in me is drooling thinking about installing a real Neumann k870 capsule in this mic If I buy and mod it will be aShannonstien, even Klause says new 870's are inconsistent so if I'm upgrading I'm going with somebody I know will tune to taste! For the price of a k870 I want consistency! Yes you are correct regarding k870, however recently ( within the past 6 months to year ) I have read where Klaus stated they are back to his high quality standard. This thread I am linkin Klaus discusses the capsule tolerances and why they can vary, he speaks very highly of k870 here . www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1072231-klaus-heyne-u87-just-arrived-2.htmlAlso, a thread from his forum says he tested one of the finest k870 that rivaled the best 1960's capsule. Yes he does state the turn around is positive and they are better than they have been. He also says he needs more examples to test to expound upon his theory this may be the thread you are referencing repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=36259.0
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 30, 2016 19:19:51 GMT -6
If I buy and mod it will be aShannonstien, even Klause says new 870's are inconsistent so if I'm upgrading I'm going with somebody I know will tune to taste! For the price of a k870 I want consistency! Yes you are correct regarding k870, however recently ( within the past 6 months to year ) I have read where Klaus stated they are back to his high quality standard. This thread I am linkin Klaus discusses the capsule tolerances and why they can vary, he speaks very highly of k870 here . www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1072231-klaus-heyne-u87-just-arrived-2.htmlAlso, a thread from his forum says he tested one of the finest k870 that rivaled the best 1960's capsule. Yes he does state the turn around is positive and they are better than they have been. He also says he needs more examples to test to expound upon his theory this may be the thread you are referencing repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=36259.0I have read those and to me the key is he needs more samples, my understanding is Neumann won't let you return parts and like I said at that price I want it to sound the way I want it to so the advantage of being able have it tuned adds value to the Equation. I do respect Klaus's opinion in our personal exchanges I have learned that unlike many replacing a Capsule is always a last resort of Klaus , Thus his lack of samples. Plus the latest 87ai's I have heard were inconsistent that I wouldn't feel comfortable with using them as a stereo pair. Neumann makes an excellent capsule but for the money I would want consistency or the ability to exchange or return (ok maybe with the personal connections I have at Sennhieser USA I could but I really wouldn't want to push those friendships) . I get the desire for a real k870 , and even with Klaus's words I would have gone in that direction if it wasn't for the mics I heard all purchased and imported in the last 9 months. But that's my opinion I'm sure a Warm with a K870 would sound good, I just want a Mic that sounds the way I want it and see Shannon as the easiest road there with the added option of later getting one that will sonically match up.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Sept 30, 2016 21:38:45 GMT -6
ericn You are correct regarding capsule sound as per this thread is Klaus' quote from this year. However he then offer his services to the OP, so idk. To Klaus the capsules don't represent the 1960's, but I don't have the same experience as he so maybe a 2016 k870 would sound great to me lol www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1096364-k67-capsule.htmlHe also states why the current Ai is not up to par from an electronics standpoint I did not know that one could not return/ exchange an aftermarket bought capsule. I don't see why an exchange would be unreasonable.
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Post by rocinante on Sept 30, 2016 22:21:01 GMT -6
While no professional engineer I have built a fair share of 312 type circuits (about 24) I also own and have owned API, capi,and a bunch of other clones made by myself and other very reputable designers. I think that the wa12 stands right next to them and sound, texture, and I'm afraid to say warmth is just as high end. The wa76 I think sounds just as good as my other 1176's and others ive used. It's different but does the work just as well. I'm super excited to see the 412 and I'm really really excited to see the 87. I dont need anymore 312 type pres but i could always use another 87. This is good stuff.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 1, 2016 13:20:02 GMT -6
ericn You are correct regarding capsule sound as per this thread is Klaus' quote from this year. However he then offer his services to the OP, so idk. To Klaus the capsules don't represent the 1960's, but I don't have the same experience as he so maybe a 2016 k870 would sound great to me lol www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1096364-k67-capsule.htmlHe also states why the current Ai is not up to par from an electronics standpoint I did not know that one could not return/ exchange an aftermarket bought capsule. I don't see why an exchange would be unreasonable. A Neumann Capsule isn't a like a Thirsch or Tim Campbell it's in the world of Neumann it's a replacement park , unless it's defective no returns! that's what makes it problematic if your looking for that sound! It's also the most expensive option! The Capsule is the one thing that really varies from mic to mic in the New Ai's.
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Post by kilroyrock on Oct 4, 2016 5:52:24 GMT -6
I had a dream I won the WA-412 last night! I was really excited about recording drums in the future. Then I woke up.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 4, 2016 12:59:16 GMT -6
I had a dream I won the WA-412 last night! I was really excited about recording drums in the future. Then I woke up. The WA-412 is going to be a big hit, I mean think about it 16 channels of pres for under 5k, and after researching the Altran transformers and overall build quality it seems Warm Audio is producing even higher quality product now for even less $. The wa12 standalone is $450!
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Post by kilroyrock on Oct 4, 2016 13:01:49 GMT -6
I had a dream I won the WA-412 last night! I was really excited about recording drums in the future. Then I woke up. The WA-412 is going to be a big hit, I mean think about it 16 channels of pres for under 5k, and after researching the Altran transformers and overall build quality it seems Warm Audio is producing even higher quality product now for even less $. The wa12 standalone is $450! Yeah, brand new, the 412 kills it.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 4, 2016 13:04:07 GMT -6
I had a dream I won the WA-412 last night! I was really excited about recording drums in the future. Then I woke up. I had a dream about buying the floor demo for $899. Hey warmaudio, are you down for that?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 4, 2016 13:14:15 GMT -6
I had a dream I won the WA-412 last night! I was really excited about recording drums in the future. Then I woke up. I had a dream about buying the floor demo for $899. Hey warmaudio, are you down for that? Do they discount the AES gear they bring or do people buy the gear right out of the racks on the last day so they don't have to ship it back? I have never been to a show like that, I would be walking around in awe Would love the wa87 that was on the stand for $499 and the wa2a for $699 I know $799 is more realistic and fair but I can go up the street and purchase it + tax after downloading a Sam ash sale/ coupon from my account if I wanted!) Hey we all can hope right
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 4, 2016 16:21:10 GMT -6
I think with Warm often you are seeing the prototypes or first production units and I don't know that they are for sale, until the first production run lands he has no stock. I have been buying warm stuff since the tonebeast and I think the first run just keeps getting bigger and still oversold ? Good on ya, Bryce !!
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Post by popmann on Oct 5, 2016 8:30:34 GMT -6
Is the "87" multipattern?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 5, 2016 8:48:07 GMT -6
Is the "87" multipattern? Yes cardioid, Omnidirectional , figure 8
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Post by Ward on Oct 5, 2016 11:28:19 GMT -6
I'm not suggesting that anyone here, besides me, asks ridiculously stupid questions...
But I thought it was pretty clear that this is a very close clone and is a large diaphragm multi-pattern condenser that runs on phantom power, as the three polar patterns of the U87 it copies, has the same body style and nearly identical dimensions.
We should just make certain we cover the basics so nobody misses anything.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 5, 2016 14:11:14 GMT -6
dual diaphragm
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Post by EmRR on Oct 6, 2016 8:11:18 GMT -6
Oh, I can't wait for someone to hack a Neumann capsule into a WA-87 and tell us all about it.
If I didn't have a million preamps the 412 would look more interesting. If there weren't a million surplus used preamps out there that did more it'd be even more interesting. If it wasn't starting to look like the critical mass of API-ish sounding circuits on the market didn't portend a future stylistic backlash, it'd add another boost. Still, it looks pretty interesting.
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Post by ericn on Oct 6, 2016 9:00:03 GMT -6
Oh, I can't wait for someone to hack a Neumann capsule into a WA-87 and tell us all about it. If I didn't have a million preamps the 412 would look more interesting. If there weren't a million surplus used preamps out there that did more it'd be even more interesting. If it wasn't starting to look like the critical mass of API-ish sounding circuits on the market didn't portend a future stylistic backlash, it'd add another boost. Still, it looks pretty interesting. I look at the 412 this way, the guy who has a Mackie or an Octopre is about to learn it wasn't the pres that were holding his drum sound back! Every body who's been lusting over a couple of 3124 just found an affordable way to their audio fantasy, Next comes the what Opamp and transformer upgrade! I'm sticking to CAPI!
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Post by ragan on Oct 6, 2016 13:13:26 GMT -6
Chad from Warm just posted this on GS. In response to whether the WA-412 will sound the same as the WA-12.
"Similar as in part of the same family of mic pre but we put a different spin on it, as coming back to that preamp design nearly 5 years after developing the first WA12 gave us all a fresh perspective on what we might try differently so that each unit was sort of its own animal. One important reason to do that is that we still make WA12's and WA12-500's, and we don't want to consider them interchangeable, though they are definitely close enough to use together for the same applications... They all have their place. The differences get fairly geeky, but here goes:
1.) The WA12 uses a reproduction of the Melcor 1731 discrete op-amp, and the WA-412 uses a reproduction of the old style 2520. The Melcor is sort of the grand-daddy to the 2520 for those who know their API history, so you could view this as moving forward a decade or so down the timeline, though still not up to date with the more modern cleaner surface-mount 2520's.
2.) There is a minor difference with regard to a transformer loading resistor, which is bit higher in value on the WA12, intentionally, to impart greater warmth, and closer to the API norm on the WA-412 (warmth still achieved in other ways).
3.) Input transformer differences... The WA12 uses a Cinemag input transformer that is custom. It has the turns ratio of the older style API part (1:4/1:8) but is a larger part (higher headroom) and has just a tiny bit of midrange bump actually built into the transformer. The WA-412 uses an Altran part that is custom. It has the turns ratio of the modern API (1:5/1:10) and employs a random winding technique that attempts to emulate the warmth of the older input part on the classic consoles (vs the slightly cleaner modern part).
4.) Major output transformer differences (that only geeks will appreciate, haha). The WA12 uses a custom Cinemag output transformer that is in line with the standard 'CMOQ' style API output transformer, but fixed to its steepest output turns ratio (1:3). API's output part can always be wired 1:3 or 1:1, but are usually found set at 1:2 on most applications. This transformer also has a 'butt stacked' lamination style, which allows the transformer to impart greater sonic character on the circuit. This style also has greater DC rejection; but the trade-off is a loss in efficiency. It has to be wired 1:3 in order to have even close to the same relative output (most of the time, depending on load) as an interleaved transformer when wired 1:2. The WA-412 uses a custom Altran output part that is interleaved lamination style, and wired 1:2, and is mechanically much closer in line with the standard API part.
So there you have it... we basically got a rare opportunity to have fun and play with different approaches that add up to a very similar mic pre that still stands out as its own thing. It's neither better nor worse; just unique.
Chad/Warm"
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 6, 2016 17:18:42 GMT -6
I consider myself fully geeked ! thx Ragan/Chad/Warm/Bryce
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 7, 2016 8:48:24 GMT -6
I'd love to hear from someone who's heard the WA-87.
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Post by ragan on Oct 7, 2016 8:57:46 GMT -6
I'd love to hear from someone who's heard the WA-87. I only know of one guy who's used it. Must be beta testing a prototype or something because they're not even in full production yet. Anyway, he liked it. "Big, full and round" or something was what he said.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 7, 2016 10:41:26 GMT -6
Big, full and round, sounds pretty good, thanks Ragan. The "big" is most important to me. In my high end mic shootout, the U-47 was the "best" in the sense of perfect balance, but the U-67 was the best for my voice, partly from being plain ol' bigger.
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Post by Ward on Oct 7, 2016 17:21:32 GMT -6
I'd love to hear from someone who's heard the WA-87. I only know of one guy who's used it. Must be beta testing a prototype or something because they're not even in full production yet. Anyway, he liked it. "Big, full and round" or something was what he said. BIG FULL & ROUD?? Clearly not a very accurate clone!!
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Post by ragan on Oct 7, 2016 17:26:08 GMT -6
I only know of one guy who's used it. Must be beta testing a prototype or something because they're not even in full production yet. Anyway, he liked it. "Big, full and round" or something was what he said. BIG FULL & ROUD?? Clearly not a very accurate clone!! Haha. Yeah that's the same reaction someone on GS had. The guy was, to be fair, talking about the whole chain of Warm stuff. The WA-87, WA-412, EQP-WA and WA-2a.
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Post by Ward on Oct 7, 2016 20:03:05 GMT -6
Clearly, ragan. Three things a U87 is not: Big, Round and/or full. A U87 is full sounding but it is midrange city!! Very forward upper mids and semi-murky lower mids at times. It has a very nice extended high end, but not like a U89, C12 or 251. The frequency curve on a U87 (more perceived than measured, but still there when measured) reminds me of an old wooden roller-coaster. A really GOOD U87 borders on ugly. The kind of ugly you need to give clarity and presence to something in a mix. But big round and full? That's a U47, U48 or a 251.
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