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Post by rowmat on Sept 7, 2016 22:37:20 GMT -6
L to R: Neumann U77, Bock 251, Flea 47 Will post some thoughts later but so far each individual mic seems to cover areas that the other two don't.
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Post by Ward on Sept 7, 2016 23:19:25 GMT -6
TRANSLATION: IT'S GREAT TO BE RICH.
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Post by rowmat on Sept 7, 2016 23:44:13 GMT -6
TRANSLATION: IT'S GREAT TO BE RICH. He he. I've owned the Neumann U77 for 27 years. I bought it for $300 not working and it turned out to be an easy fix. The Flea 47 is about 18 months old and was our most expensive vocal mic to date. It's definately earned its keep in that time. The Bock 251 is here to be evaluated as it's for sale (used) and I'm trying to talk myself out of it but so far I think that's not working.
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Post by Ward on Sept 8, 2016 6:56:54 GMT -6
Rich AND economical? Good way to not become poor, my friend.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Sept 8, 2016 11:31:49 GMT -6
U77, please tell me the sexy rundown on that beauty. I'm guessing a precursor the the u87? What's the scoop
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Post by rowmat on Sept 8, 2016 15:34:05 GMT -6
U77, please tell me the sexy rundown on that beauty. I'm guessing a precursor the the u87? What's the scoop The U77 was Neumann's first LDC FET and was released in 1967. The U77 was produced concurrently with the U87 for a few years but seems to have disappeared by around 1971 It shared the same K67 capsule used in both the U67 and U87 along with the housing and head basket. However it was transformerless and was 12 volt 'T' powered rather than 48 volt phantom which was only beginning to become the new standard. Soundwise it is extremely detailed, probably the most detailed LDC I've ever heard. In fact I would call it 'forensic' in it's ability to resolve detail which is normally the domain of SDC's. Having a simple audio path and no output transformer means nothing is smoothed over or hidden. This is sometimes desirable and other times not so much. It is not a warm, round sound especially through a clean preamp. However I find it much preferable to most of Neumann's recent transformerless offerings as it is not as pushed in the highs and less prone to harshness compared to many transformerless mics. Esses are reproduce cleanly, without any fizz or fur. Preamp choice is critical for vocals and a tube pre such as a V72/V76 seems to compliment it well. It is great on acoustic guitar and killer on upright bass as it doesn't bloat the low end and captures all the nuances of the instrument without having to push the EQ.
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Post by rowmat on Sept 8, 2016 16:50:32 GMT -6
Okay some thoughts on the comparison.
All three mics were run through a SCA J99 preamp which is a close replica of a Hardy/Jensen Twin Servo.
Firstly the Bock has loads of low end. Much more than I expected in fact.
(EDIT: I read that David Bock deliberately avoided using any high pass filtering which likely accounts for the extended low end compared to an original 251)
Proximity effect seems to still be apparent at almost 12 inches out so a variable high pass is going to be essential. A fixed high pass won't allow enough adjustment which this mic will need like many ribbons do.
In fact the pronounced low end can give the impression the Bock is overall fairly dark. It's not and a combination of high passing and EQ should allow for a quite a varied pallet of usable tones from this mic.
The Bock is quite flat and smooth in the mids comparing it to the Flea 47 which has the typical U47 upper midrange presence boost and low-mid reediness that are well known traits.
The high end on the Bock seems to extent further than the 47 and appears very smooth so I would imagine it would take EQ well without getting narly.
The Bock has the lowest output followed by the Flea and then the U77 which is probably at least 6db hotter again.
The U77 is also the most forensically detailed of the mics tested so would not be my first choice for a shrill female vocal.
The Bock on the other hand would be my first condenser pick for a tricky female vocalist before breaking out the R84 ribbon.
The Bock is in excellent physical condition though I'm not sure about the state of the GE5670 tube.
Will run it through some different pre's today and experiment with some EQ.
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Post by Ward on Sept 9, 2016 6:11:40 GMT -6
rowmat I've been on the hunt for a Mercury V72 for a long time... hopefully at less than 2K per channel. Man, that is the ultimate VOCAL preamp for any microphone.
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Post by swurveman on Sept 9, 2016 6:48:04 GMT -6
The Bock is quite flat and smooth in the mids comparing it to the Flea 47 which has the typical U47 upper midrange presence boost and low-mid reediness that are well known traits. Can you explain what you mean by "low-mid reediness" rowmat? My understand of the word reedy is that it is a weak high pitched sound that is thin. To me low mids are appox 200-800. So, I'm not sure what you mean. If there's a some audio of a vocal with this reediness it would be cool to hear. Thanks for the clarification!
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Post by Ward on Sept 9, 2016 7:36:34 GMT -6
The Bock is quite flat and smooth in the mids comparing it to the Flea 47 which has the typical U47 upper midrange presence boost and low-mid reediness that are well known traits. Can you explain what you mean by "low-mid reediness" rowmat? My understand of the word reedy is that it is a weak high pitched sound that is thin. To me low mids are appox 200-800. So, I'm not sure what you mean. If there's a some audio of a vocal with this reediness it would be cool to hear. Thanks for the clarification! Perhaps he's referring to the Low-Mud obesity all too common in U47 clones?
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Post by Randge on Sept 9, 2016 10:45:42 GMT -6
"It is great on acoustic guitar and killer on upright bass as it doesn't bloat the low end and captures all the nuances of the instrument without having to push the EQ."
Personally, to me, I love the bloated fat pillowy upright sound way way more than the oingy jazz sounds. Most grassers and trad country guys do, too. This is how I like to dial an upright in. This is from the pre-beard era in this vid, too.
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Post by rowmat on Sept 10, 2016 18:28:35 GMT -6
"It is great on acoustic guitar and killer on upright bass as it doesn't bloat the low end and captures all the nuances of the instrument without having to push the EQ." Personally, to me, I love the bloated fat pillowy upright sound way way more than the oingy jazz sounds. Most grassers and trad country guys do, too. This is how I like to dial an upright in. This is from the pre-beard era in this vid, too. I agree where a fat pillowy bass is desirable. The Flea 47, Bock 251 and AEA R84 all can provide that and have. However when I put on my beret, black turtleneck and cravat 😎 and want less thickness and more definition off the bat the U77 just has it. As they say... "Horses for courses!"
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Post by rowmat on Sept 10, 2016 18:42:13 GMT -6
The Bock is quite flat and smooth in the mids comparing it to the Flea 47 which has the typical U47 upper midrange presence boost and low-mid reediness that are well known traits. Can you explain what you mean by "low-mid reediness" rowmat? My understand of the word reedy is that it is a weak high pitched sound that is thin. To me low mids are appox 200-800. So, I'm not sure what you mean. If there's a some audio of a vocal with this reediness it would be cool to hear. Thanks for the clarification! Think of bass clarinet which I liken to the crooner signature tone from the likes of Sinatra and Nat King Cole. That's what I hear from the 47 especially going through something like a V72. Sort of a rich, reedy resonate tone. I guess the 'reediness' is kind of like an prominent upper harmonic of the bass. You get the bass with a ribbon mic but without that kind of resonant 'reediness' you hear with a 47.
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Post by rowmat on Sept 10, 2016 18:48:39 GMT -6
rowmat I've been on the hunt for a Mercury V72 for a long time... hopefully at less than 2K per channel. Man, that is the ultimate VOCAL preamp for any microphone. Mercury Brüder preamp is second from the bottom. Left channel is a V72s, right channel is a V76m. Both channels get used often. I'm almost thinking of labelling the V72s "Guys" and the V76m "Gals" The Flea 47 through the V72s has THAT tone! It's never wise to generalise but a 47 through V72 could be a the starting point for many male vocals and a 251 through a V76 could be likewise for the girls.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Sept 12, 2016 18:53:44 GMT -6
rowmat According to the purple site Flea has been installing Andreas Grosser EF12er tubes ( solid state VF14er I'm assuming ef12er is solid state, pencil tube in a rubber / metal jacket? ) in place of the telefunken ef12. It took someone to post questioning the difference in sound and why when they purchased a backup tube they were sent an ef12er which then Ivan from flea responded. I cannot find much info on the ef12er currently, there was a brief mention in the thread. The last I read the poster had still not opened the mic to see what tube it has..
Do you know what tube is in your Flea 47? Lol
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Post by wiz on Sept 12, 2016 18:57:04 GMT -6
rowmat I've been on the hunt for a Mercury V72 for a long time... hopefully at less than 2K per channel. Man, that is the ultimate VOCAL preamp for any microphone. Mercury Brüder preamp is second from the bottom. Left channel is a V72s, right channel is a V76m. Both channels get used often. I'm almost thinking of labelling the V72s "Guys" and the V76m "Gals" The Flea 47 through the V72s has THAT tone! It's never wise to generalise but a 47 through V72 could be a the starting point for many male vocals and a 251 through a V76 could be likewise for the girls. NICE RACK!!!!! cheers Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Sept 12, 2016 19:14:32 GMT -6
Mercury Brüder preamp is second from the bottom. Left channel is a V72s, right channel is a V76m. Both channels get used often. I'm almost thinking of labelling the V72s "Guys" and the V76m "Gals" The Flea 47 through the V72s has THAT tone! It's never wise to generalise but a 47 through V72 could be a the starting point for many male vocals and a 251 through a V76 could be likewise for the girls. NICE RACK!!!!! cheers Wiz I bet you say that to all the ladies! The module on the far right of the Heritage 80 Series rack is a Neve 33114 (50 Series) which I have fitted with a connector extension adapter I made up so I could use Neve 50 Series modules in the 80 Series rack. There's also second Neve 33114 and also a Neve 3115 not shown as they were on the workbench at the time I took the shot. Here's the pair of 33114's
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Post by rowmat on Sept 13, 2016 17:20:41 GMT -6
After much deliberation I bought the Bock 251 ($3800 USD) which is quite a bit less than I could buy a used one from the US by the time I paid freight and import taxes etc. I've also ordered the parts from Chunger to build a C12/251 clone using Tim Campbell's CT12 capsule which I had already purchased some months ago so the Bock will give me a good reference for tuning the C12 clone. If the clone turns out to be a Bock killer then I may sell the Bock. Otherwise I hope it will provide another usable flavour maybe a little closer to an original C12 signature.
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Post by wiz on Sept 13, 2016 17:25:12 GMT -6
After much deliberation I bought the Bock 251 ($3800 USD) which is quite a bit less than I could buy a used one from the US by the time I paid freight and import taxes etc. I've also ordered the parts from Chunger to build a C12/251 clone using Tim Campbell's CT12 capsule which I had already purchased some months ago so the Bock will give me a good reference for tuning the C12 clone. If the clone turns out to be a Bock killer then I may sell the Bock. Otherwise I hope it will provide another usable flavour maybe a little closer to an original C12 signature. Good price on the Bock, I looked at them at HAHAHAHAHAH awave 8) If you are ever purchasing stuff like this.. give me a shout.. maybe we can split shipping etc... cheers Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Sept 13, 2016 17:35:55 GMT -6
After much deliberation I bought the Bock 251 ($3800 USD) which is quite a bit less than I could buy a used one from the US by the time I paid freight and import taxes etc. I've also ordered the parts from Chunger to build a C12/251 clone using Tim Campbell's CT12 capsule which I had already purchased some months ago so the Bock will give me a good reference for tuning the C12 clone. If the clone turns out to be a Bock killer then I may sell the Bock. Otherwise I hope it will provide another usable flavour maybe a little closer to an original C12 signature. Good price on the Bock, I looked at them at HAHAHAHAHAH awave 8) If you are ever purchasing stuff like this.. give me a shout.. maybe we can split shipping etc... cheers Wiz No worries. Awave list the Bock 251 at $9499 AUD although I reckon about $8500 AUD is what Lewis would have done one for. I paid $5000 AUD used but it's in great condition without a scratch. Someone sold a Bock 251 on Turtlerock a few years back (2013) for $3500 AUD which was a bargain but our Aussie dollar was stronger back then and I think Awave had about $6500 AUD on the Bock 251 around that time. Of course nothing beats Awaves current price on the Telefunken ELA M251 reissue... www.awave.com.au/shop/microphones/telefunken-ela-m-251-2/Fookin' insane!!! 😬
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Post by wiz on Sept 13, 2016 17:37:36 GMT -6
Good price on the Bock, I looked at them at HAHAHAHAHAH awave 8) If you are ever purchasing stuff like this.. give me a shout.. maybe we can split shipping etc... cheers Wiz No worries. Awave list the Bock 251 at $9499 AUD although I reckon about $8500 AUD is what Lewis would have done one for. I paid $5000 AUD used but it's a great condition without a scratch. Someone sold a Bock 251 on Turtlerock a few years back (2013) for $3500 AUD which was a bargain but our Aussie dollar was stronger back then and I think Awave had about $6500 AUD on the Bock 251 around that time. Of course nothing beats Awaves current price on the Telefunken ELA M251 reissue... www.awave.com.au/shop/microphones/telefunken-ela-m-251-2/Fookin' insane!!! 😬 HAHAHAHA yeah, Lewis is a good guy, My wife used to play in a band with him... but that shop is a shocker for customer service. cheers Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Sept 13, 2016 17:46:32 GMT -6
No worries. Awave list the Bock 251 at $9499 AUD although I reckon about $8500 AUD is what Lewis would have done one for. I paid $5000 AUD used but it's a great condition without a scratch. Someone sold a Bock 251 on Turtlerock a few years back (2013) for $3500 AUD which was a bargain but our Aussie dollar was stronger back then and I think Awave had about $6500 AUD on the Bock 251 around that time. Of course nothing beats Awaves current price on the Telefunken ELA M251 reissue... www.awave.com.au/shop/microphones/telefunken-ela-m-251-2/Fookin' insane!!! 😬 HAHAHAHA yeah, Lewis is a good guy, My wife used to play in a band with him... but that shop is a shocker for customer service. cheers Wiz Lewis usually does me a deal but I've bought a bit of gear off them in the past few years. They moved shop from South Yarra to Hawthorn about six months ago. They no longer open at weekends and were recently closed for two weeks. They now state on their website store visits are by appointment only. Not sure why but I think Lewis may be sick of the hours and is encouraging more customers to buy online. He also seems to have lots of irons in other fires including businesses in the US. Music stores with expensive gear tend to be frequented by a lot of tyre kickers but if you are serious about spending a lot of $$$ then most will want to try stuff out first, especially $19,000 mics!!!
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Post by wiz on Sept 13, 2016 17:53:20 GMT -6
HAHAHAHA yeah, Lewis is a good guy, My wife used to play in a band with him... but that shop is a shocker for customer service. cheers Wiz Lewis usually does me a deal but I've bought a bit of gear off them in the past few years. They moved shop from South Yarra to Hawthorn about six months ago. They no longer open at weekends and were recently closed for two weeks. They now state on their website store visits are by appointment only. Not sure why but I think Lewis may be sick of the hours and is encouraging more customers to buy online. He also seems to have lots of irons in other fires including businesses in the US. Music stores with expensive gear tend to be frequented by a lot of tyre kickers but if you are serious about spending a lot of $$$ then most will want to try stuff out first, especially $19,000 mics!!! Must be 20 years since I have been there.. could have sworn it was in Hawthorn then... 8) ahh time... cheers Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Sept 13, 2016 18:08:31 GMT -6
Lewis usually does me a deal but I've bought a bit of gear off them in the past few years. They moved shop from South Yarra to Hawthorn about six months ago. They no longer open at weekends and were recently closed for two weeks. They now state on their website store visits are by appointment only. Not sure why but I think Lewis may be sick of the hours and is encouraging more customers to buy online. He also seems to have lots of irons in other fires including businesses in the US. Music stores with expensive gear tend to be frequented by a lot of tyre kickers but if you are serious about spending a lot of $$$ then most will want to try stuff out first, especially $19,000 mics!!! Must be 20 years since I have been there.. could have sworn it was in Hawthorn then... 8) ahh time... cheers Wiz It may have been in Hawthorn back then. I only started buying from Awave a few years ago when they were located in South Yarra.
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kasroc
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by kasroc on Jan 9, 2019 20:16:26 GMT -6
NICE RACK!!!!! cheers Wiz I bet you say that to all the ladies! The module on the far right of the Heritage 80 Series rack is a Neve 33114 (50 Series) which I have fitted with a connector extension adapter I made up so I could use Neve 50 Series modules in the 80 Series rack. There's also second Neve 33114 and also a Neve 3115 not shown as they were on the workbench at the time I took the shot. Here's the pair of 33114's Wow, that’s amazing you were able to fit/design an adapter to work in that Heritage rack. I had a rack custom made to fit all my 33 series modules. You should patent that adapter! Ha Nice clean modules you have too.
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