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Post by geoff738 on Aug 27, 2016 12:32:04 GMT -6
Being a recording forum, I'm most interested in people's experience with using them in the studio, but gigging or just noodling around at home experience is also welcome.
I know some of us have less than ideal recording spaces, and I'm thinking in particular of apartments. Attenuators vs. Other methods of volume control, for example.
I'll also add that I'm looking into the Fryette stuff, and in particular the Power Station. Not technically an Attenuator, but that is one of its functions, and the one I'm most interested in. They also have another DI gizmo that I haven't completely grokked.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by Ward on Aug 29, 2016 6:43:31 GMT -6
I have two in my arsenal. I have tried countless others.
Those I have:
1982 Scholtz R&D Power Soak: decreased bass response and increased fuzziness, the more attenuation you use. Replacing components can improve the sound,
Dr. Z Air Brake: Has 4 settings that you can adjust by taking apart the unit. Apart from that great inconvenience, the sound is good.
Those I've used but don't own:
Hot Plate works great. Prepare to spend a lot of money getting all the ones you need to match various impedances.
Marshall Power Brake: Gets middley with more soakage.
DRZ Brake Lite Meh!!
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 29, 2016 10:14:07 GMT -6
I've tried a few of the resistance/load boxes. At moderate gain reduction they can sound ok. Not great, but ok. I'm not sure I ever tried recording using one though, and am also not sure how much Fletcher/Munson played a role either.
The Fryette thingy, and the Bad Cat Unleash, and now there's a Radial one too, work in a completely different way. They take the speaker out form the amp, convert that to line level, then run it through an amp built into the unit, which acts as a master volume, and then the speaker out from that gets fed to a speaker. It can attenuate, or amplify. And it can be used for a few more applications as well.
Theyre supposed to sound way better than the resistance based ones. Was hoping somebody here had used one and could chime in.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by popmann on Aug 29, 2016 15:03:56 GMT -6
I think there are WAY better tech.....between amps with post phase inverter master volumes....to power scaling--London or someone else's implementation of the principle....
The problem is they are part of the amp design. So, you can't buy a Fender or Marshall or whatever old amp that was designed to sound best at huge stage volume.
I had an Ultimate Attenuator around for a while....I would second that the Hotplate was solid--problem as noted was lack of multiple impedance....
The thing that I tested that no one seems to....is record the amp on 8 (or wherever you think it sounds best) without the attenuator....then with....then with a pedal in front for "OD"....and there simply isn't much difference. And the wide open was rarely the best. Louder sounds better. It doesn't record better. Recording brings it back to low level on playback.
A lot has to do with how much the power tubes saturation is part of the sound you need. For ME....I dislike the sound a lot of power tubes breaking up--the exception being EL34s. I've yet to meet a 34 amp that doesn't require them to start giving up to get "that sound". Meanwhile, 6L6 and EL84 amps can be designed to sound lovely at an volume and gain level, IME....
Mostly, I don't think amps sound better cranked to ear splitting levels.....SOME do....I just don't buy those. They not useful to me as a player. It's not a foregone conclusion. I think the beauty of modern boutique amps is that they ARE being designed to be volume conscious. Now....you DO have to move the magnet....so, nothing take it to bedroom levels losslessly....but, it will take "shaking shit off the walls" into "loud" BETTER than losslessly. I say better because YOU can make better judgements on the tonal adjustments without that wall shaking volume involved.
Plus recording aside--I play every day....often for hours. I'd be deaf if I had to use an old school amp for that.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 30, 2016 9:21:40 GMT -6
I've done most everything you can name in general regarding getting the right sound from guitar amps at low and mid volumes, and they all failed, but some were close.
The best sound I've ever had was through a 1960's Marshall 100 I got from the Allman Brothers. It was one of the amps they used on the Live at the Fillmore album. It was the touch sensitivity that amp had that's been impossible to replicate. I set the volume up high on the amp (7,8?), then using the volume control on a Les Paul at 2-3 for basic parts, 6-7 for some huge punch, 9-10 for a solo. The closest thing I've found to that incredible sound was the Blankenship Leeds 21, a boutique 20 W. version of that sound. Still, not quite the same.
I've used probably 80% of every Fender made for recording and gigs, and at least 6 or 7 different Marshall's, then a few boutiquey amps, THD 15/30 W., Bad Cat 30W, Bad Cat Bobcat 5W., Matchless, and a few others. Not one had the perfect blend of clean and gain and touch sensitivity I wanted, except the Blankenship, which was too expensive for me to buy.
I've also tried a few attenuators, and basically, nothing really got it right, to me. I recently spoke to the owner of Bad Cat who told me they're coming out with a new version of the 15W. Cub, and it will have a new copyrighted design of an attenuator he claims will really work. I'm looking forward to trying it, as he really does know his stuff.
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Post by 79sg on Aug 31, 2016 8:20:37 GMT -6
IMHO, Two Notes gets it right, I have and use the Two Notes Torpedo Reload and the CAB along with their Wall of Sound lll plugin. Excellent results. Don't feel the need or desire to blast an amp into a microphone anymore. Now I can turn up my amps to the sweet spot and record silently. Whenever using a loadbox, attenuator, etc. the quality of the IR (impulse response) is equally important. But if I do feel like recording an amp with a mic I break out my 1-2 watt Emery Sound Microbaby, simply a great sounding amp. I also have a Mesa Boogie Royal Atlantic head that has a built in "multi soak" / attenuator that is extremely effective but eats up tubes if I bring the 100 watts down to 3 watts so in comes the Two Notes stuff the majority of the time. If I were gigging and wanted to go straight to the PA I'd use their "Live" box.
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Post by popmann on Aug 31, 2016 10:46:38 GMT -6
You still have to attenuate the Leeds. Aren't you in an apt? You'd never be able to record it....because all they've done is take old circuits and shrink the size of the power tubes.
I wouldn't begin to buy an amp in 2016 that didn't have the sound in the preamp with a post PI master OR have London Power Scaling built in. I need to be able to go set it on a LITTLE stage....or practice when there are other people living in the house....record at levels that don't physically shake shit around the room....I was thinking the other day that this is literally the best time EVER to be a guitarist with regard to the amount of STUNNING amps on the market. You wouldn't know it going to Guitar Center....so, um don't. DviBy13's BTR...Audio Kitchen's Big Chopper....Suhr's Badger and Corsco....and you can obviously still get great ACTUAL 100wt Plexi clones from Suhr or Metropoulis or whomever if you literally need a "volume be damned" huge stage sound....
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 31, 2016 14:30:21 GMT -6
Popmann said, "You still have to attenuate the Leeds. Aren't you in an apt? You'd never be able to record it".
Yes, you're right. That's why I just bought the 5 W. Bad Cat Bobcat. But even that isn't able to be perfectly dialed in. What I want is 25% of what the boost switch on my Bobcat does in the main amp setting, and to not need a pedal to get that. It's likely the new Cub Bad Cat is coming out soon will do that.
I thought of the Leeds as a live gig amp or recording amp, but for mid-large rooms. Smaller rooms, 5W. is more than enough.
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Post by wiz on Aug 31, 2016 14:46:37 GMT -6
Tone King have one out, I would like to try it with my imperial.
I had a Hot Plate... didn't like it...
For me its always seemed more that the speaker needed to get air moving that was the problem.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by donr on Aug 31, 2016 20:36:12 GMT -6
Agree with Popmann, the London Power attenuation scheme is the only thing I've heard that maintains the amp's sound at attenuated volume. I'm assuming that's what 65 Amps uses in its amps, 'cause that's where I heard power attenuation work. I'm a big fan of 65 Amps.
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Post by stratboy on Sept 2, 2016 20:17:19 GMT -6
What about the Weber MASS attenuators? Anybody have any experience with those? They use a speaker coil as the attenuation device.
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Post by popmann on Sept 2, 2016 22:16:07 GMT -6
"enough" for what? I don't like playing low wattage amps. I DO prefer to play at non earth shattering volumes. they're not the same thing. At all. A 30-50wt amp doesn't get mushy....doesn't low low frequencies in the attack....can twang and snap....as soon as you go below 20wts, IME, you're compromising the range of tone....and ironically, losing the ability to sound good NOT dimed. I think companies who keep issuing lower wattage amps are just dinosaurs. A 2wt amp does not feel like a 100wt amp. While it's not "just as loud" dimed--functionally, it kinda IS....
I was trying to get Svart to school me in another thread about what the difference in power scaling and the old Variacs was....yes, London is the company that patented the circuit---licensed it for years--but, now with companies like Fender using it on the new Bassbreaker 45, makes me wonder whether they have just developed a "similar functional circuit" to get around paying London. I mean--it's a $900 retail head....I'll be curious to see if they come out with a more "fender" (6x6) amp with it....I've never played one. Reinhardt had it on 34s and 84 amps in 2010 when I bought mine. It was a must--that sound is ALL about the 34s crunching up. For me, the other tones I care about can be had without shaking walls.
You're still not going to play it in an apartment. If you need to play in an apartment, you need to get an amp with a good sounding preamp. One that was designed to give you all the compression and dirt and nuanced squishies and such.....and then get a post phase inverter master volume. My custom 40/20 EL84 will play an apartment.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 3, 2016 9:05:46 GMT -6
I almost agree with Pomann, but not completely. I've always found the cabinet size to be the difference between "right" and thin. I had a Matchless 12" speaker cabinet that sounded great with any amp. Change the cabinet size to something a little smaller, and the same amp didn't sound so great. There seems to be a minimum cabinet size requirement to get a great sound, or you then have to live with that "little amp" sound, which I really don't like either, but it's fine, if you want that.
The 15 W. Bad Cat Cub sounded full and rich as most any amp, (save a 100 W. Marshal stack), the Blankenship Leeds 21 was great too, it wasn't missing anything. The best clean sound I've ever gotten though was a 66' Super Reverb. It obviously took some real wattage to get that sound, but it was impractical for many other purposes. If it was in a studio, I'd use it for some things, but would use something different for anything ballsy. I have heard the Louis Electric Columbia (Princeton), and that thing seemed like the real deal to me. It is 28 Watts, so it might pass the Popmann test, but I'm not sure. I can't afford it, or I'd get one.
So, unless you have two or three amps to switch between, we're back to a question of attenuators. I'm waiting to see if the newest Bad Cat Cub solves the problem with their new attenuation circuit. It's a patient applied for thing, so we'll see.
As for recording in my apartment, it is a bit of a sticky situation. I usually wait until mid-afternoon to crank it, most people in my building are at work then.
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 6, 2016 14:03:54 GMT -6
Gonna post a link to the Fryette power station so you can have a look at how it works/ what it does. It is not an Attenuator in the conventional sense, although it is purported to do that very well. In fact, Fryette calls it an integrated reactive amplifier rather than an Attenuator. Linky
I believe it is pretty similar to BadCat's Unleash, but the Fryette is tube whereas the Unleash is ss. Will be interesting to see if the units built in to Bad Cat amps use the same tech. I will also add that there are quite a number of reviews on the web claiming the Fryette to be the best gear purchase they have ever made. Grains of salt notwithstanding, I have not seen or heard one in the flesh and am very curious to see whether it lives up to the hype. Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 6, 2016 14:44:26 GMT -6
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 6, 2016 16:50:54 GMT -6
Badda boom! I think it is basically a very simple 5watt amp that is then fed through a class D amp acting like a master volume to bring it up to 100 watts output. Don't quote me on that though. cheers, Geoff |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 6, 2016 16:59:05 GMT -6
Badda boom! I think it is basically a very simple 5watt amp that is then fed through a class D amp acting like a master volume to bring it up to 100 watts output. Don't quote me on that though. cheers, Geoff 5 watt amp, signal is attenuated (so you can crank the amp as loud as necessary to get the grit), then brought up to playing volume with the class D. That's how I understand it. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 6, 2016 17:29:43 GMT -6
There's a newer Bad Cat model out that has the new design patent pending attenuator: THIS is what I was referring too, take a look: www.badcatamps.com/cub-III-15.htmlThis is a quickie video they did, not a great demo, but they mention the new K Master attenuation feature. |
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