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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 21, 2016 16:46:49 GMT -6
I have a blue line capsule in my main vocal mic and when I try to sing certain phrases 2.5khz-4khz sounds like the capsule is not as forgiving as Neumann capsules. The capsule is giving in or "buckling under pressure" figuratively and probably literally. I was going to get a Blackspade um17/18 awhile ago but decided to take same capsule (BlueLine / trafo ( bv08 based )and throw it in a fet based mic. I have been happy with the modded mic however definitely can relate to JohnKenn description of said capsule reaction/ performance. An amazing mic has been on my wish list/ to buy list for awhile, however VK Nashville / Zen pro is 5-6 hours away so I have no way to demo without road trip, then I'm not in my room. So aside from Tim Campbell / Neumann / Theirsch what other capsule makers are doing amazing work? ADK? Chas, save yourself the trouble, just buy the Soyuz 0-17 if you can afford it. They make their own capsules, based on the K47, and it sounds better than any mic I've heard yet with a Thiersch capsule, and can go head to head with a U47. The FET Soyuz in the shootout has the same capsule, but the tube does help handle the pressure of louder passages. It's not cheap, but well priced considering the $11,000 price difference.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 21, 2016 17:15:19 GMT -6
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-1-u67
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-1-m49
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-1 https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-2
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-3
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-4
OK gents, the first two mics on top were from the first shootout. They're the U67 and M49. We had the six mics lined up in a row, instead of in the same position like the other shootout. I didn't include these files earlier because they're different takes, and even with care, the position I sang from could have been slightly different enough to make the comparisons unfair. In fact, I think one of these files doesn't represent the mic as well as it could. That said, I thought you'd all enjoy hearing the U67 in action, as well as the M49, so here ya go.
I'm looking forward to the comments, especially regarding the U67 in relation to the U47 and Soyuz. In the studio, I thought the Blackspade was quite similar to the M49, but I don't think this file shows it properly. That's the way it goes I guess. At the time I did shootout #1, I just wanted to hear for myself, and wasn't thinking ahead about posting files.
I included the original shootout, (#2) here, so you could easily compare the U67 and M49 to the other mics.
Remember, mic 1 = U47, mic 2 = Blackspade UM-18R, mic 3 = Soyuz 0-19 FET, mic 4 = Telefunken C12
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 21, 2016 17:24:27 GMT -6
I bet with a little compression on the U67 it would kick ass. It sounds quite like my benchmark U67 vocal, Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada".
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Post by yotonic on Jul 21, 2016 17:58:13 GMT -6
U67 for your story telling vocal styling
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 21, 2016 18:23:19 GMT -6
I should have traded with cowboycoalminer for his U67 when I had the chance last year ;-)
I think the new tracks from the first shootout with the 67 and M49 are louder. The Soyuz and the 67 are quite similar if you compensate for the volume difference.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 21, 2016 19:50:46 GMT -6
They all sounded really good, but I think I liked the U67, C12, and Soyuz. The fascinating part to me is that the different mics give a different emotion, almost like a different performance was done. Just from subtle sonic cues, like the breath on the C12, and the chest on the U47, etc. You should buy all of those mics, haha.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
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Post by ericn on Jul 21, 2016 20:28:01 GMT -6
Shannon Rhoades Shannon + infinity!!!! (meaning + way more than a million, billion trillion.......!!!!!) What they said! Like Tim Shannon will Tune the capsule to taste, unlike Tim Shannon is here in the states in little old Nashville !
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 21, 2016 21:11:34 GMT -6
What Monkeyxx speaks about it is interesting. I listened for the feelings I got with each mic.
U67 - The most energy transmitted. You kinetically feel time passing. A feeling of trepidation worry and wonder, and a sad resignation. The most emotive of them all I think.
M49 - a distant observer, who's a good commentator that draws people in.
U47- Immediacy, as if the singer is right there observing the events, narrating as it's happening. That gives it the intensity of a news bulletin.
Blackspade UM18R - Felt like the singer was keeping a stiff upper lip, trying to hold it together, on edge a little.
Soyuz 0-19 A different kind of immediacy, like I was right there, standing in front of the vocalist. Somehow more hopeful.
C12 -Introspective, lovely, and very personal, but not necessarily communicating outward to others. Still very interesting because the inside feeling is showing outside.
These are my impressions. Anyone else care to take a shot? Even just one impression of what one of the mics made you feel like would be cool.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 21, 2016 21:29:08 GMT -6
At this moment, if someone said you can have only one, and you can't sell it, I think I'd take the U67 and put a great compressor on it. I might change my mind though, it's late and I'm listening on headphones that are bright. I'll try again tomorrow on my monitors and see if I feel the same way.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 21, 2016 21:30:13 GMT -6
When the mids aren't strident - whether that's the pinching cap or whatever - they all are just different flavors. I could settle on several of these and be happy. It's the distraction of strident -1-4khz in cheaper mics that distracts me. Drives me crazy.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 21, 2016 21:33:45 GMT -6
Me too!!!
That's the main reason I was so excited and grateful to be able to do this, thanks to Jeremy.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 21, 2016 22:01:58 GMT -6
I have a blue line capsule in my main vocal mic and when I try to sing certain phrases 2.5khz-4khz sounds like the capsule is not as forgiving as Neumann capsules. The capsule is giving in or "buckling under pressure" figuratively and probably literally. I was going to get a Blackspade um17/18 awhile ago but decided to take same capsule (BlueLine / trafo ( bv08 based )and throw it in a fet based mic. I have been happy with the modded mic however definitely can relate to JohnKenn description of said capsule reaction/ performance. An amazing mic has been on my wish list/ to buy list for awhile, however VK Nashville / Zen pro is 5-6 hours away so I have no way to demo without road trip, then I'm not in my room. So aside from Tim Campbell / Neumann / Theirsch what other capsule makers are doing amazing work? ADK? Chas, save yourself the trouble, just buy the Soyuz 0-17 if you can afford it. They make their own capsules, based on the K47, and it sounds better than any mic I've heard yet with a Thiersch capsule, and can go head to head with a U47. The FET Soyuz in the shootout has the same capsule, but the tube does help handle the pressure of louder passages. It's not cheap, but well priced considering the $11,000 price difference. I thought the Soyuz capsule was based on the K67?
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 21, 2016 22:09:52 GMT -6
What Monkeyxx speaks about it is interesting. I listened for the feelings I got with each mic. U67 - The most energy transmitted. You kinetically feel time passing. A feeling of trepidation worry and wonder, and a sad resignation. The most emotive of them all I think. M49 - a distant observer, who's a good commentator that draws people in. U47- Immediacy, as if the singer is right there observing the events, narrating as it's happening. That gives it the intensity of a news bulletin. Blackspade UM18R - Felt like the singer was keeping a stiff upper lip, trying to hold it together, on edge a little. Soyuz 0-19 A different kind of immediacy, like I was right there, standing in front of the vocalist. Somehow more hopeful. C12 -Introspective, lovely, and very personal, but not necessarily communicating outward to others. Still very interesting because the inside feeling is showing outside. These are my impressions. Anyone else care to take a shot? Even just one impression of what one of the mics made you feel like would be cool. This is great, man! I don't know what you're smoking, but I definitely want in!
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Post by matt on Jul 21, 2016 22:32:11 GMT -6
U67, all the way. It fits your stylistic approach like an expensive set of driving gloves. Rich Corinthian Leather. Or is it lambskin? Whatever, it works! Add a STA or RS124, and call it done.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 21, 2016 22:37:11 GMT -6
Yes, the Soyuz capsule was based on the K67. I don't know every detail, but I do know they make it themselves, by hand, and I don't think it's an exact copy. I've always liked the vibe of the U67 and U87, so it makes sense the Soyuz would appeal to me too.
Each microphone has a different rejection pattern. Something about the pickup area of the U67, U87 and the Soyuz 0-17 and 0-19 just works to my ears. I found the U47 flawless, and could happily live with that thing for the rest of my days, but despite the slight sibilance of the 67, there's something the 67, 87 and the Soyuz do that others don't, and I like it. It's just my taste and experience, I certainly wouldn't expect or look for agreement.
One thing about those mics, they practically sit themselves into a mix, maybe that capsule is why, maybe something else, I wouldn't know.
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Post by ragan on Jul 21, 2016 22:51:33 GMT -6
U67 runs away with it to me. U47 second. The 67 clip is quite a bit louder, but even compensating for that, it's the best. Sounds so damn good on your voice.
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Post by yotonic on Jul 21, 2016 23:32:52 GMT -6
I have used U47, U67, C12, 251 Elam. Each mic has a different frequency pattern that highligts a different focal point of a persons register. This can accentuate vocal frye as in a C12 or breathiness (as mentioned) or lower warmth as in a U47 etc. The key is to find what is unique and the most emotive part of someones voice and to use the mic that accentuates it most effictively from an artistic perspective.
Sometimes you have to convince a singer "not to" use the mic that "fixes" what they don't like about their voice and to instead ignore that insecurity and use the mic that makes the greatest impact of their voice.
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Post by levon on Jul 21, 2016 23:51:49 GMT -6
The sun went up when I heard the 67, even on cheaper headphones. Awesome mic, beats them all, especially for Martin's voice. 47 comes second for me. For the rest, yeah they come somewhat close but they lose in direct comparison. Once I heard the 67, they all seemed more muffled and indirect to me. Proves once more, you get what you pay for and you can't beat Neumann's craftsmanship. You can argue about $XX,000 price differences all day long and how that only buys you the final 5%, but at the end of the day, those 5% are what counts.
A friend of mine recently played a bass track for me. He had a great sounding mid-price-range bass that we really liked. That is, until he got out the Sadowsky. Guess what we used.
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Post by jakeharris on Jul 22, 2016 0:04:24 GMT -6
When the mids aren't strident - whether that's the pinching cap or whatever - they all are just different flavors. I could settle on several of these and be happy. It's the distraction of strident -1-4khz in cheaper mics that distracts me. Drives me crazy. For an alternative angle to all this, you guys are overlooking proper power-supplies. All these vintage mics, and most expensive high-end mics, have very good power units. Can't be done in sub-2K'ish mics, with a cost of €500-600 just for the PSU. Easily available as an aftermarket purchase though, but not many people seem to upgrade their units. On a sidenote, Wunder are a perfect example of a high-end brand not addressing this issue. They used to ship their mics with crappy chinese PSU's sourced from Peluso. Wouldn't surprise me that's part of the reason you didn't think much of those mics either...
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Post by levon on Jul 22, 2016 0:28:24 GMT -6
Interesting point and, yes, you're right.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 22, 2016 6:05:58 GMT -6
When the mids aren't strident - whether that's the pinching cap or whatever - they all are just different flavors. I could settle on several of these and be happy. It's the distraction of strident -1-4khz in cheaper mics that distracts me. Drives me crazy. For an alternative angle to all this, you guys are overlooking proper power-supplies. All these vintage mics, and most expensive high-end mics, have very good power units. Can't be done in sub-2K'ish mics, with a cost of €500-600 just for the PSU. Easily available as an aftermarket purchase though, but not many people seem to upgrade their units. On a sidenote, Wunder are a perfect example of a high-end brand not addressing this issue. They used to ship their mics with crappy chinese PSU's sourced from Peluso. Wouldn't surprise me that's part of the reason you didn't think much of those mics either... This isn't a power supply issue.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 22, 2016 6:46:08 GMT -6
The 67 definitely rocked my boat. It does expose my voice in a way that's hard to listen to, but only in the sense of it being so effective and revealing. A pinch of compression, (don't forget, these files had no processing at all on the mics, just a little reverb added in my DAW), and I'd be done.
If I was a studio owner and had the cash, the U47 is a no brainer, it's just perfect. But the character of the 67 I think is the best fit for me, as Matt, Ragan, Levon, and Yotonic, mention. I think it'll be a while before I can get close to a U67, ;-), so it's back to the drawing board.
Don't forget, I didn't have the Soyuz 0-17 tube mic here, and with its capsule design being similar to a U67. I know from having it for a little while, it's every bit as good as the U67, though probably a little different as these all are. That would probably be the best choice for me considering my budget, but even that's too expensive for me.
I'm glad my Blackspade still sounded as good as it did, even though the 67 was obviously something special. You could pick some aspect of its sound apart technically I'm sure, but that mic just reaches into you guts and takes you for a ride.
No wonder it got so much use on so many Beatle's records.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 22, 2016 7:54:49 GMT -6
Was this a modified or stock 67? I remember reading that a lot of U67's have been modified to give more top end, as stock U67's tend to be somewhat dark.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 22, 2016 8:19:46 GMT -6
Jeremy will have to answer that question indiehouse, they were mics from his studio's mic locker, ( The Barber Shop Studios), and I don't know every detail about them. I believe it's an all original vintage model. www.thebarbershopstudios.comIt was great fun watching Jeremy open a door with his key, and low and behold, instead of a shelf in a closet or drawer in a cabinet, a real and true mic locker!
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Post by popmann on Jul 22, 2016 10:24:35 GMT -6
I preferred the 49 of the two new ones. But, it sounds like you were eating the 67 and a foot+back from the 49.....no? That said, they both sound good. The 67 sounded more sibilant than any I've used. I'd have literally guess blindly that the 49 was the 67 and visa versa because there's so much proximity effect on the 67 track here.
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