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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 12:39:16 GMT -6
I think I used one of the Charles Zwicky presets...started with a CZ...Bus
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Post by EmRR on May 19, 2016 12:39:43 GMT -6
Most times the Samar MF-65 works very well for acoustic guitar. I tend to use a small omni if it's a condenser. If it's the principle part of a sparse arrangement there'll probably be a stereo pair (or two) back aways, with the closer pair probably being the majority of the sound if the close is a condenser, closer mic there enough for desired amount of detail. Distant pair type depends on playing, can be ribbon or condenser. Sometimes the Samar sounds fantastic, but the part is simply too delicate and quiet to overcome the noise that comes with the required gain for a ribbon.....out comes a condenser. I'd like to hear a Sennheiser MKH 20/30/40 for acoustic guitar work, that line intrigues me and I never encounter them. I am generally turned off by the treble boost of my KM140's when close to an acoustic guitar. The air is attractive, but not enough to overcome my dislike for the accentuated metallic qualities of pick on metal strings which mask the wood tone.
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Post by rowmat on May 19, 2016 13:51:24 GMT -6
As mentioned use a harder pick and instead of striking the strings with the point of the pick use the more rounded part of the pick. This will reduce the pick attack and provide a more solid tone. It works!
If you don't have access to a KM84 then I would consider a ribbon mic. A Beyer M160 will still provide detail without accentuating the pick attack as much as say a KM184 which I would not use in a situation like this.
If you can't get the guitarist to co-operate then try using a Transient Designer to soften the attack.
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Post by joelhamilton on May 19, 2016 14:09:54 GMT -6
Well streamed from my phone via Bluetooth to my car on the interstate while driving to a gig and tryin not to get Arby's sauce on my cleanest T Shirt I can assure there ain't a darn bit of difference between the two but resale value.
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Post by joelhamilton on May 19, 2016 14:14:28 GMT -6
Also John Kenn ric rolled me
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Post by drbill on May 19, 2016 14:22:23 GMT -6
I was all over KM84's for your application.
Until.....
......I found KM86's, and then the ultimate - KM53's.....
The 53's are much more "elegant" and "finished" sounding than 84's, but good luck finding one...or two. They are now my ultimate Ac Gtr mic. HUGE sounding, and the top end is soooo smooth compared to the 84.
If I'm lazy and don't want to get out the tube power supplies, the KM86 mids are much warmer and the bottom end bigger than the 84. The 86 is also much more "connected" to the HF than the 84 which has a bit of a HF disconnect from the rest of the sound.
But the KM 53's are a "where have you been all my life" kind of thing when / if you can find one or two....
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 14:29:58 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 14:30:19 GMT -6
I do want a KM86 though...
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 14:35:31 GMT -6
For all intents and purposes, there really ISN'T much difference in the two mics. I might put my KM84 up with a ridiculous price and see if I can sell.
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Post by drbill on May 19, 2016 14:36:20 GMT -6
I do want a KM86 though... The 86's are great. More flexible than the 84's no doubt. Honestly, I'd used them many times, and thought they were pretty much multi pattern KM84's but they are different. I like definitely them better. I think Bob O does as well. They are more balanced. There's kind of a weird disconnect in the HF of the 84's for me in comparison to the 86's. The 84's might be better for rockier applications, but the 86's are all rounders IMO. But the 53's. O My Gosh. They completely took me by surprise. Blew my doors off. I had the chance for a LCR set from a scoring engineering buddy who's selling off his mic collection, and didn't want / couldn't afford all 3, so Dan D took the Telefunken branded one and I took the two Neumann ones. Amazing mics.
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Post by rowmat on May 19, 2016 14:46:45 GMT -6
I was all over KM84's for your application. Until..... ......I found KM86's, and then the ultimate - KM53's..... The 53's are much more "elegant" and "finished" sounding than 84's, but good luck finding one...or two. They are now my ultimate Ac Gtr mic. HUGE sounding, and the top end is soooo smooth compared to the 84. If I'm lazy and don't want to get out the tube power supplies, the KM86 mids are much warmer and the bottom end bigger than the 84. The 86 is also much more "connected" to the HF than the 84 which has a bit of a HF disconnect from the rest of the sound. But the KM 53's are a "where have you been all my life" kind of thing when / if you can find one or two.... I'm still looking for a couple of KM86's. I do also have a KM54 but didn't mention it because I think a KM84 is still probably a better choice if pick noise is a major issue. The KM54 is super detailed and would accentuate the pick attack more than a KM84 although less agressively than say a KM184. My understanding is the KM53 is basically an omni version of the KM54?
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Post by rowmat on May 19, 2016 14:55:39 GMT -6
Neumann KM54 on an acoustic. Not my clip but it will give an idea of the transient detail. You can clearly hear the pick attack in this clip.
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Post by drbill on May 19, 2016 15:08:28 GMT -6
I was all over KM84's for your application. Until..... ......I found KM86's, and then the ultimate - KM53's..... The 53's are much more "elegant" and "finished" sounding than 84's, but good luck finding one...or two. They are now my ultimate Ac Gtr mic. HUGE sounding, and the top end is soooo smooth compared to the 84. If I'm lazy and don't want to get out the tube power supplies, the KM86 mids are much warmer and the bottom end bigger than the 84. The 86 is also much more "connected" to the HF than the 84 which has a bit of a HF disconnect from the rest of the sound. But the KM 53's are a "where have you been all my life" kind of thing when / if you can find one or two.... I'm still looking for a couple of KM86's. I do also have a KM54 but didn't mention it because I think a KM84 is still probably a better choice if pick noise is a major issue. The KM54 is super detailed and would accentuate the pick attack more than a KM84 although less agressively than say a KM184. My understanding is the KM53 is basically an omni version of the KM54? Yes, Omni, but it doesn't seem problematic in getting too much "room" for me - which I was originally worried a bit about for close mic-ing. Being Omni, you can get in close or place where you couldn't place a cardiod due to proximity, and the pattern doesn't seem to be as problematic as some Omni's I've tried to use up close. And you are right, incredibly detailed, but the options of placement with the Omni pattern help offset that for me. I looked for a great 86's for years. Ended up getting pairs of 53's, 86's, 140's, 170 and even an original SM7 all in one shot. Lucky day for me. The guy still has a TON of amazing mics FS. I just couldn't afford any more than that.
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Post by joey808 on May 19, 2016 15:08:39 GMT -6
Yea, diggin the Neumann, gefell sounds good too.
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Post by rowmat on May 19, 2016 15:18:05 GMT -6
I was all over KM84's for your application. Until..... ......I found KM86's, and then the ultimate - KM53's..... The 53's are much more "elegant" and "finished" sounding than 84's, but good luck finding one...or two. They are now my ultimate Ac Gtr mic. HUGE sounding, and the top end is soooo smooth compared to the 84. If I'm lazy and don't want to get out the tube power supplies, the KM86 mids are much warmer and the bottom end bigger than the 84. The 86 is also much more "connected" to the HF than the 84 which has a bit of a HF disconnect from the rest of the sound. But the KM 53's are a "where have you been all my life" kind of thing when / if you can find one or two.... Funny you should say that you find the high end on a KM84 to be a bit 'disconnected'. The first time I heard a KM84 one of the things that struck me was just how 'right' the high end (and especially the mids) sounded compared to most other SDC mics I'd heard. Now if we were talking about the KM184, then yes, that most definitely has a 'disconnected' high end IMO. Maybe 'tacked on' high end is more the term I'm thinking.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 16:00:06 GMT -6
Fack the BIGGEST thing I notice when recording acoustic guitars is how well the fucking player is. A bad player can just fuck any chain up. I've used my TLM102, CAD E100S and Josephson C42 all with mixed results that depend on the player, the guitar and whether the strings are fresh. I wish it could be as simple as drums, I find acoustic guitar to be the hardest thing to record because the player moves an inch this way or that and the sound changes and they never sit the same twice so punching in is quite difficult. Fuck it, I'll stick to rock music with electric guitar. Those samples sound great, I prefer the KM84 it sounded a little smoother to my ears but both were great and usable.
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Post by rowmat on May 19, 2016 17:12:09 GMT -6
What most acoustic players don't understand is the harder they hit the guitar the smaller and thinner the sound will be.
An acoustic guitar is like an amplifier. Once you reach its limit, and begin to exceed it, the output becomes non linear. In the case of the amp distortion rises. In the case of acoustic guitar, tone and sustain is replaced by the percussive sound of the pick hitting the strings.
The harder you play the more percussive the sound with the bass and body of the instrument getting left further and further behind.
Playing with less percussive force will produce a more balanced mix of lows and highs and more body. More weight with less thin, scratchy washboard effect.
To get players to play less I often turn up the micpre and cue send to very high levels. This forces them to play with less force.
It's then you often hear them say... "Wow! My guitar sounds huge!"
The moral of the story is play with less force (but not with less feel) and CRANK UP THAT PREAMP!!
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Post by matt on May 19, 2016 17:23:07 GMT -6
If you can't get the guitarist to co-operate then try using a Transient Designer to soften the attack. Talking right now, as a matter of fact.
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Post by rowmat on May 19, 2016 17:34:38 GMT -6
I invariably find acoustic players are often their own worst enemy. Some will tell you they want a big acoustic sound and then do everything to ensure they don't get it.
Typically bashing the crap out their guitar thinking that will make it sound big. Trying to unlearn years of bad technique during a few hours of tracking is not always easy.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 17:40:40 GMT -6
I once heard Tom Bukovak said the key was to play "soft and in tune..."
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Post by rowmat on May 19, 2016 17:50:01 GMT -6
I like fingerstyle acoustic guitar but was never a big fan of players like Bert Jansch. I find his style quite jarring and clunky.
A friend of mine is a big Bert fan and has moulded his style on Bert's which includes heavily plucked bass notes where the string almost rebounds off the fretboard.
I'm guessing Jansch's style came about by necessity rather than design. I would imagine playing fingerstyle guitar during the 1960's and early 1970's in noisy cafes and folk clubs (often un-amplified) is the likely reason for a fairly heavy handed fingerpicking style which was probably required just in order to be heard.
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Post by rocinante on May 20, 2016 8:14:32 GMT -6
IME I have to get them to use soft pics. My live favorite for instance is the gray dunlop 63 (along with enough other guitarist to be noticeable). Its just a bit too much though. The off white dunlop works better and although its softer if held closer to the tip its nearly the same. I use an sdc at the neck and a ldc at the 12th fret. I alwaus make sure the hole is not in the path. The effort of checking for phase is worth the outcome. After tracking I use a light reverb setting on the choruses (valhalla or true verb) to help the guitar not get "lost". I love the fab filter for cutting the hp and a 1084 into an 1176 during mixdown is bliss. Helios is great here too but I prefer them for leads. Pultec type eqs for drastically pulling them out of the mix. CLA-3A has also been used a bunch lately.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 20, 2016 8:32:10 GMT -6
I can't say I disagree with the posts regarding not playing acoustics too hard, but then Pete Townsend might not agree with you, and he did OK with his acoustic playing ;-) Just saying it really is the player, there are guys who know just how to play hard when needed, and it doesn't crush the tone.
I record my acoustic these days with one mic in front, typical distance/placement, basically move it around a little until sounds god, the I put a second mic above my right shoulder, overhead, parallel to the front or slightly forward. For some reason I don't get one guitar in the middle when I use the tracks one panned far left and one far right. It sounds more like I did two different takes. Perhaps the difference in time between the sound arriving is just enough to make this work.
I then blend the above my shoulder mic like a tone control since the tone is thinner and brighter. I used to play a track four or five times and pick the two best takes to have double tracked stereo guitars. Of course I can just use the front mic sound for a mono guitar and the overhead as room sound if I want any at all.
This has worked nicely on all my newer tracks. never tried mid-side, this technique gets me what I want. Fast forward to 2:47 on this video and you'll hear what I mean: *the video doesn't show the actual way I recorded this, I'm lip syncing. I recorded one acoustic guitar with 2 mics placed like I described.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,817
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Post by ericn on May 20, 2016 8:52:43 GMT -6
More and more I love the sound of my Sony C535s On acoustics the slight bit of compression they give solves a lot of problems.
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Post by strangeways on May 20, 2016 9:16:17 GMT -6
I do an AT4033 at 12th fret pointed at about 30 degrees towards the body. Maybe 2-4 inches away from fretboard. Here's a song i recorded at my tiny practice space for my ladyfriend. Not much of a drummer or singer, so my apologies for the slop. She cried when she heard it. Maybe my singing? ? m.soundcloud.com/daryl-g-rabidoux
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