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Post by matt on May 19, 2016 9:33:35 GMT -6
My vocalist has moved back to Phoenix from SoCal and suddenly we are back at it, looking to complete material for the most part written over two years ago. Several of the songs have 6 and 12 string guitars as backbone instruments. So far my attempts to record my Martin HD28 and Takamine 12 string have been less than satisfactory. I tried a TLM102 and a Beyer MC930 and both produced underwhelming results using the standard mono technique of 6-8 inches off the 12-14th fret straight-on, not angled down or toward the body or headstock. Recording level is not an issue (the target is -18 dbfs or so), and it's not particularly the tone either - although a little brighter into PT would be OK. The problem is the attack from picking/strumming. Inevitably, every take has objectionable pick strikes from raking the strings. I've tried talking to the guitarist, told him to get his shit together, to control himself and not always Rock so much, but it's no use. Guitarists, legends in their own minds. My current signal chain is mic > Slate Fox set to "modern/combo" > Symphony. I am not compressing on the way in, but I certainly could (526 or STA or 543 or Heritage 2264) nor am I using EQ (also available, on my Ventura pre). I am trying to take a minimalist approach, but maybe it's not the way to go. Of course, whenever something like this happens, I immediately think: I need more equipment! A new mic! Outboard EQ! After all, I have a nearly empty Purple Ten to fill! But probably not. I do lust after a Neumann U47 Fet though. I wonder if the excessive pick noise results from being too close to the mic. I've always tried to minimize the room (untreated) using close-miking, but maybe not. Move back, and accept more room noise. Or try a thinner/different pick (I'm using Tortex Orange). Or compress on the way in? Hmmm . . . . How do my RGO brethren capture acoustic guitar? What mic, recording technique, signal chain, etc . . . I would bribe the guitarist into playing better, but as I've said, it's useless. He'd just wander off and buy more Stella anyway.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 9:40:05 GMT -6
I would say it's the mic(s)...I would think the TLM is gonna be ice-picky...Just bite the bullet and buy a used KM84...although, nothing wrong with Gefell or even a KM184. The mictek C5's aren't bad either (although for the price, I might just go with the Neumann.) Randge is a great resource on this... I believe I've heard people say really good things about the Peluso 84's too.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 9:41:10 GMT -6
I have a Gefell M300 and KM84 here...I could strum some bars if you want...
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Post by ragan on May 19, 2016 9:43:09 GMT -6
Try the 930 at neck body joint about 12-15" off and the 102 over the right shoulder of the player, facing down. Like 12-15" to the right of his head.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,936
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Post by ericn on May 19, 2016 9:52:59 GMT -6
Move the 930 around and try different, position pre and room. The 930 sounds pretty good on decent Acustic, not a 84, but I know a bunch of people who kept their 930's after buying 84's because while different they still love the Beyer.
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Post by matt on May 19, 2016 10:19:18 GMT -6
I have a Gefell M300 and KM84 here...I could strum some bars if you want... JK, that would be a beautiful thing. I'd love to hear a comparison, along with some impeccable playing.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 10:20:51 GMT -6
Uh...one out of two ain't bad, right?
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 10:21:16 GMT -6
Maybe I can get Joel over here.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 10:34:09 GMT -6
Your wish is my command...coming up in a couple of hours!
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Post by matt on May 19, 2016 10:39:57 GMT -6
Maybe I can get Joel over here. That would be cool! Tonight I'm going to back off the mic and try the MC930 again. Maybe try two mics and submix/print them to mono in the mix. I really don't see the point of stereo acoustic unless it's a solo piece, or guitar/voice. Add the fact that I'm a hack and the idea of an upfront guitar gives the mix engineer chills. And not the good kind, either.
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Post by chasmanian on May 19, 2016 10:41:06 GMT -6
Matt, Humbly suggest guitarist play with no pick, and see if you like the sound.
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Post by matt on May 19, 2016 10:44:09 GMT -6
Try the 930 at neck body joint about 12-15" off and the 102 over the right shoulder of the player, facing down. Like 12-15" to the right of his head. I have a pair of 930s, I'll try over the shoulder. And I'm gonna back off the mic. The more I think about it, the more certain I am that I was too close, and the TLM102 couldn't handle it.
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Post by svart on May 19, 2016 10:47:04 GMT -6
KM184's into 1272's. About 8-15" back, one aimed around the 12th fret, the other aiming back up towards the sound hole/picking area. Move them around to balance the levels a bit.. BAM.
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Post by matt on May 19, 2016 10:47:25 GMT -6
Matt, Humbly suggest guitarist play with no pick, and see if you like the sound. Thanks, I''l consider it! By the way, I am the guitarist . . . And the recording/mix engineer. And the studio owner. And the songwriter (thankfully, not the only one). And the Producer. But who's counting?
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Post by chasmanian on May 19, 2016 10:59:22 GMT -6
Matt, Humbly suggest guitarist play with no pick, and see if you like the sound. Thanks, I''l consider it! By the way, I am the guitarist . . . And the recording/mix engineer. And the studio owner. And the songwriter (thankfully, not the only one). And the Producer. But who's counting? So you're an all hats. That makes you super amazing in my book Matt!! :-) :-) :-)
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Post by svart on May 19, 2016 11:00:12 GMT -6
Matt, Humbly suggest guitarist play with no pick, and see if you like the sound. Interesting. I've found that a lot of acoustic players tend to play with floppy picks which make a kind-of whoosy-plop sound. I make them play with hard picks and their sound improves drastically. I don't think I've every had anyone play bare like that, other than using their own fingernails.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 11:38:54 GMT -6
Here are the files:
One take, recorded through Helios Type 69's.
Neumann KM84 dry https%3A//soundcloud.com/johnandkris/neumann-km84%3Fin%3Djohnandkris/sets/neumann-km84-vs-gefell-m300
Gefell M300 dry https%3A//soundcloud.com/johnandkris/gefell-m300%3Fin%3Djohnandkris/sets/neumann-km84-vs-gefell-m300
KM84 with Tverb Room https%3A//soundcloud.com/johnandkris/km84verb%3Fin%3Djohnandkris/sets/neumann-km84-vs-gefell-m300
M300 with Tverb Room https%3A//soundcloud.com/johnandkris/m300verb%3Fin%3Djohnandkris/sets/neumann-km84-vs-gefell-m300
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 11:41:17 GMT -6
Very close in my opinion. Neumann slightest bit more "muscle-y", Gefell little brighter on top...
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 11:52:50 GMT -6
Now I gotta come up with $150 for the Tverb...sigh
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Post by joseph on May 19, 2016 11:53:34 GMT -6
Nice reverb too.
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Post by joseph on May 19, 2016 11:53:50 GMT -6
Ha
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 11:54:23 GMT -6
Oh - btw - wish I could say that was me playing, but it's joelhamilton
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 11:54:49 GMT -6
Yeah - little too much of it, but it's a great verb...
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2016 11:59:45 GMT -6
And just for shits and giggles, here they are panned L&R respectively...
https%3A//soundcloud.com/johnandkris/bothpanned
Kinda sounds like there might be some phase cancellation going on with that. They weren't set up XY, just right next to each other...
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Post by joseph on May 19, 2016 12:00:34 GMT -6
What settings did you use?
I like how it adds a little movement/spread but is not too colored. Definitely very natural on acoustic sources, which most reverbs aren't.
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