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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 3, 2013 13:04:38 GMT -6
How many of you guys have heard the blind mix files of the same song going through Symphony and Orion? Could you hear a difference between those mixes? Which did you prefer. I know it's not scientific but it doesn't need to be. I think Tony has them somewhere. Maybe we can get you guys to comment on those. It would help me understand what you prefer. That is entirely dependent on what you're listening through. If you're listening through a worse piece of gear than the Symphony/Orion, you probably won't hear the difference in an accurate way. Ideally, you'd use a converter that is *better* than whatever you're testing, so your tests are accurately represented. I mean, think about it. What if you're listening to these audio files thru headphones plugged into the headphone port on your laptop? I highly doubt the analog section of that headphone amp will accurately replicate the waveform captured in the audio files, compared to a Lavry or some other high-end converter. you can still do the null test and see what the results are by loading the files into a DAW, lining them up, and flipping the phase on one of them, listening to the results, and also looking at the results via a spectrum analyzer. That's just simple math, and doesn't require the use of ears lol Re: drilling the PCBs, you can see in the pics that BLA posted on their facebook page of the symphony card mod that they're using very tall thru-hole capacitors in place of some of the surface mount ones. Probably the same big blue caps brand jeff throws in with his VP28 kits. Unless they're soldering them directly to the SMD pads (which would render them easily bendable/breakable), I don't see how they'd mount them to the PCB easily or efficiently without drilling thru-holes. The symphony cards have a lot of vias on them, and I am pretty sure it's a multi-layer PCB. no way to confirm, tho. I'm curious what they're doing to mount those larger caps to the board... I heard a difference clearly on my laptop speakers, then head phones thru my laptop and then I went and checked in the studio to confirm. There is a difference for sure. So the difference translates all the way down, having a great monitoring chain only helps highlight the differences. Doing the phase flip and null thing just proves a difference not which one I/you would prefer. Tony did the test on me and I told him what I preferred before he told me what was mix was done with each converter. This was also before I listened in the studio. So it is audible, even if it's not scientific like I said. Interesting stuff. I'm interested in your guys thoughts on those files. Clearly converison is subjective to a large degree. But I would love to hear how you guys hear the differences. I don't think one is a wrong choice, but I do have a preference and it would help me understand what you prefer and what you hear. |
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 3, 2013 13:08:09 GMT -6
I'm happy with my Symphony. I'd be happy with it as well. Specially if I could get 32 channels of I/O hooked up in my room. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 3, 2013 13:11:40 GMT -6
Can you not get 32 channels in one box? (For the price of a small car)
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 3, 2013 13:37:08 GMT -6
I believe the symphony with 32 I/o's is around $7k if I'm not mistaken, i too would be happy with a symphony if i could pull 32 out for $5k, I'll try to post up those mixes later today, but i'm not sure how to get them up at 44.1/16? any ideas? can i makem downloadable?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 3, 2013 14:04:09 GMT -6
Soundcloud, box.com
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 3, 2013 14:04:47 GMT -6
I've seen a bunch of 16 I/o's on eBay
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 3, 2013 15:06:43 GMT -6
I have as well. But I think I also need a thunderbolt bridge along with the 16 I/O and another 16 I/O card. Its gonna be expensive and at that price I feel like I should love whatever I get. I know I could use a number of converters and do good work but again at that price I would want something to stomp my BLA 002 and have the 32 I/O. So far nothing stands out as a clear direction. Just waiting to find a good deal on something.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 3, 2013 18:45:33 GMT -6
Just hock the house and go Prism
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 18:48:56 GMT -6
Dan, they're selling new chassis & cards bundled with the TBridge, with 50% off the Tbridge. If you're looking for more than 8 I/O in a single box that stomps your 002 according to your ears, you're probably not gonna find it, unless you get that 192 mod, but you gotta have 192s already. What options do you have, really? MADI box, PT HD interfaces, Symphony, Orion, daisy-chain two Apollo16s, Motu HD192s (lets be honest tho). are there any other choices that I don't know about? It has to qualify as an audio interface, not just a converter. I think if you run the numbers, you're looking at no less than $6K for whatever system you end up getting, if you're really gunning for those 32 channels.
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 3, 2013 20:08:34 GMT -6
Yeah, that is what sucks. Not many great options. I am really curious about clocking some lynx aurora's to something better. They are appealing because they don't suck and they have come down in price. They also have a new TB card coming out that would simplify things a little. I think that would be the cheapest option other then an Orion 32. I don't love the idea of a USB 2 connection. Why they didn't do something with TB or USB 3 blows my mind.
I almost feel like doing the same thing Tony is doing. Just waiting for something better to come around. The lynx are pretty old by now and the new Avid and Apogee stuff is super expensive. On top of that you have to buy a ThunderBridge interconnect for a lot of cash. At those prices this is all starting to sound foolish.
I can't believe the guys who are buying up Burl audio stuff and other super hi priced AD/DA. Even a number of my friends who make good livings in music don't use that kind of stuff. Heck I know a bunch who are using RME and Euphonix.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 0:18:44 GMT -6
the lynx aurora 16 is 3K. it's expensive, just like the 8x8 symphony (3K). if you don't need more than 16 channels, symphony with 16x16 card can be run over USB for 4K. I think for Avid's similar system (16ch converter), it's 4K for the module, and then you also gotta get the PCIe card or thunderbolt bridge to interface with the computer.
Also, how can you say "not many great options"? Pretty much all of our favorite records were cut and mixed on all that gear! I mean, sooner or later, you gotta say enough is enough and just pick somethin' lol. someone said earlier in this thread if you can't get it done with your symphony/HD/Aurora, you gotta stop looking at the converter as the source of your problem :-P
FWIW, I went with the symphony for a bunch of reasons. a) i'm on iMac, so i needed something that wasn't PCIe-based. b) I don't use PT, so i needed something that worked with other DAWs. c) I needed something with a ~zero latency stand-alone mixer so I don't have to deal with DAW latency/monitoring issues d) I needed something that ignorant clients might have recognized from work at other studios/GC &VK ads. I thought about the Aurora and the Apollo, but went with the symphony because e) you never see the aurora/apollo/BLA/etc shot out in converter shootouts with PT HD.
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Post by dandeurloo on Nov 4, 2013 10:45:49 GMT -6
I have made great records on old apogee and the lynx stuff so I know its more then good enough for Rock n Roll. The reason nothing is great is because we are in between so many different things. Thunderbolt is sloooowly catching on. I wish it was just done and then lots of things would be using it. Lynx has a Thunderbolt card which could be nice and much cheaper then buying a AVID or a Apogee thunderbolt card. Plus that stuff can be had used so it would be thousands cheaper then a 32 I/O symphony. I wish Orion was USB3 or Thunderbolt as well. That would make it future proof for a while with new macs.
I hopefully will be able to compare lynx to Orion later tonight at a friends place and see if one sounds better then another. That may help sort some of it up. As is the AVID and Apogee options are to expensive for 32 channels and then I have to buy a Thunderbolt card for them or use old computers. I'm on 10.6.4 and I would love to upgrade as I have PT 10 HD that would be a nice upgrade to PT 9 HD because of the Disk Cache. To many little things making no option a great option at this point.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 4, 2013 11:17:21 GMT -6
I hopefully will be able to compare lynx to Orion later tonight at a friends place and see if one sounds better then another. To many little things making no option a great option at this point. much looking forward to your findings on this ^ exercise Dan! I soooo agree, we are now definitely in a state of suspended animation techmologicollie speekin  |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 4, 2013 12:14:20 GMT -6
I've seen a bunch of 16 I/o's on eBay Yep 16x16 analog cards sell on there often reasonably priced. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 13:58:53 GMT -6
I've only seen the 16 analog in x 16 digital out (and vice versa) cards on there. but they are selling for their list price, which is $2K. the 16 analog in x 16 analog out card still goes for $3K from every listing i've seen. no saving money there, unfortunately, otherwise I would've scooped one up already!!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 4, 2013 17:37:58 GMT -6
Charles, I have seen them on there but admittedly it hasn't been recently. Haven't looked in quite awhile.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 23, 2013 22:21:35 GMT -6
Wonder if anyone has actually heard this mod...
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 12, 2017 8:57:00 GMT -6
Wonder why Black Lion mods the Symphony MKII but not the BF Apollo 16 MKII?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 12, 2017 9:03:43 GMT -6
I know they mod the blackface Apollo 8. Someone told me it sounds better than a Symphony after the mod. I'd sure like to hear that for myself.
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Post by adamjbrass on Oct 12, 2017 9:05:52 GMT -6
Someone said the JCF AD was Class A....The most popular JCF Audio AD unit is the AD8 and it uses no amplifiers at all. I compared this unit to my Symphony and it made me want to break the symphony with a hammer. INSTANT RECORD Making sound.
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Post by donr on Oct 12, 2017 10:25:03 GMT -6
Someone said the JCF AD was Class A....The most popular JCF Audio AD unit is the AD8 and it uses no amplifiers at all. I compared this unit to my Symphony and it made me want to break the symphony with a hammer. INSTANT RECORD Making sound. Do you set line levels into the AD8 by looking in the DAW, at the digital end? Anybody here using this? |
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Post by adamjbrass on Oct 12, 2017 10:29:14 GMT -6
Someone said the JCF AD was Class A....The most popular JCF Audio AD unit is the AD8 and it uses no amplifiers at all. I compared this unit to my Symphony and it made me want to break the symphony with a hammer. INSTANT RECORD Making sound. Do you set line levels into the AD8 by looking in the DAW, at the digital end? Anybody here using this? Yea, you use your DAW meters, or just listening. Usually both. The AD8 sounds very "analog" and creamy to my ears, its almost impossible to ruin the sound in the thing, no matter what do, gain staging wise. Its a very pure sound with a instantly gratifying-"finished" mojo to it. The transformers Josh uses sound amazing. But it has no op amps at all, so its very passive-calming, and it does not have any unnatural attack. Very low noise but super magical tone. Never been happier with the sound, as fast as it happens with the AD8. I patch my stuff into it and my eyes lite up like its Christmas......and I am jewish! |
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Post by donr on Oct 12, 2017 10:37:32 GMT -6
Do you find yourself using cleaner mic pre's with the AD8 than you might with other A/D's? Like you don't need additional mojo?
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Post by adamjbrass on Oct 12, 2017 11:07:52 GMT -6
Do you find yourself using cleaner mic pre's with the AD8 than you might with other A/D's? Like you don't need additional mojo? Never. I have tube stuff everywhere, plate reverb, ribbon mics, so mojo up the wazoo around here..it all sounds far more amazing through the AD8. Its not a "heavy handed" thing, but rather, instantly gratifying audio of your already cherished chains. Its fuller, deeper, wider and more organic and pure sounding than my apogee mk1. Having shot them out, I was pissed when we sold the last one. I need to staple one of them in my rack permanently. I might need to sell off some junk first hehe |
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Post by adamjbrass on Oct 12, 2017 11:24:40 GMT -6
FWIW, I use a Merging Hapi ADA8 for "clean" mic preamp, AD and DA. And if I need to use a clean signal chain at the studio, I use an NPNG or Hanks pre. The Fearn can sound clean, but not in any known way. Its actually the smoothest creamiest one. But honestly, all of my gear sounds better into the AD8.
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