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Post by yotonic on Feb 28, 2016 23:47:53 GMT -6
I sold my Neumann U47 black badge, short body from 1957 with an M7 capsule to a buddy a few years ago for $10,000 because it didn't make any business sense for me as a songwriter to own it anymore. And quite frankly I was pretty happy with a build of my own using Flea components.
My friend called me this past week to say he wanted to sell it back to me. So I contacted another buddy in LA that I had originally bought it from and was stunned to find out what was going on with U47 prices. This same mic that 3 years ago was honestly a "fair" deal at $10,000 is now going for $17,000? WTF? That mic isn't worth $17,000 and a couple of 47s that my friend was selling are not worth $18,000. I've never come across a Neumann U47 or Telefunken badged 47 that is worth more than $15,000. Things have just gotten completely out of hand. There is no "studio business" today that needs it give or take a half dozen in the states. And there aren't any artists that "need it" from a business sense. With the 1% of artists that earn 80% of the recording revenue out there, none of them need a Neumann U47 and very few actually are using one other than a Chris Stapleton or Michael Buble here or there.
So what in the hell possesses someone to pay $18,000 for a Neumann U47 that is honestly a vintage relic? Has the "prosumer" market become that lucrative? Like baseball card collectors? Guys buying U47s and 1073s for their basement studios? It amazes me, because I can't figure it out but I would love to. Someone is making a lot of money off of people who aren't recording artists. It reminds me of the gun industry selling automatic weapons and silencers to collectors. I thought this bubble would have burst when people realized the music business was over, but apparently selling dreams is where the money is at. I guess I'll buy this thing back and flip it to all the Chris Stapleton wannabes that should be coming down the pike.
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Post by rob61 on Feb 29, 2016 0:31:16 GMT -6
It started with the Wall Street Journal article pointing out the collector value of vintage microphones. Ever since, the price of mics, as well as other hard assets with "collector value" has been caught up in the current asset bubble. People would much rather hold hard assets than fiat currency, which is being devalued much more than you are being told.
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Post by rowmat on Feb 29, 2016 4:46:19 GMT -6
I bought a Flea 47 a year ago. (M7/EF12)
As soon as most singers hear it for the first time in their headphones the next thing they commonly say is... "Wow! This mic is amazing!"
At this point I have no desire to spend three times as much on an original U47.
U47's, U49's, U67's, C12's, ELA M251's etc seem to be going through the roof.
I knew a retired ex-radio guy that sold a pair of U67's for $500 each about twenty years ago as he hadn't touched them in years.
He told me about the story about 10 years ago and nearly had heart failure when I said they were worth about $4000 each back then. Now I see U67's going for $8000 - $12000.
I wouldn't have the balls to tell him how much they're going for now.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 29, 2016 8:02:51 GMT -6
RCA tube preamps were a good purchase a decade ago at $200-300 ea, now they can be 10x that. Western Electric amps that could be had for a grand a dozen years ago can be 10x-20x. StaLevels for $300. Etc. Same mechanisms in many vintage audio pieces. Yes....I wouldn't pay what a lot of what I own now costs.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 29, 2016 9:36:01 GMT -6
Maybe its nice to have for some lawyers?
My lawyer owns a 59 Vintage Stratocaster which he bought for 15 k in Euros way to expensive - imo.
If you have talent, and you can sing I would not worry to use an UMT 70 (M7 Capsule) into my 1073 or any decent tube pre.
Cash by Johnny Cash..... the only book I believe in.... Lol
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 29, 2016 9:45:36 GMT -6
you can build a clone for a 10th the price, that equals or surpasses the originals with some fine tuning(MKU47/mataC12), only people who don't understand electronics, or believe in voodoo don't believe it to be the case. Any skeptics are welcome to grab your originals and come by my place to compare them to my clones,.... no, i won't trade you 8)
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 29, 2016 9:53:29 GMT -6
Maybe its nice to have for some lawyers? My lawyer owns a 59 Vintage Stratocaster which he bought for 15 k in Euros way to expensive - imo. If you have talent, and you can sing I would not worry to use an UMT 70 (M7 Capsule) into my 1073 or any decent tube pre. Cash by Johnny Cash..... the only book I believe in.... Lol Blues Lawyers/Tone Attorneys are the worst. I would have to agree, it's the upper middle class tone lawyers who want to cover the entire back catalogue of The Band eating up the audio market. |
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Post by rocinante on Feb 29, 2016 9:55:31 GMT -6
I noticed the same thing and was thinking they were typos.
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Post by drbill on Feb 29, 2016 10:32:06 GMT -6
It's a collectors market for rich and/or trust funders. Not for everyday users. The guys that have em and use em mostly bought them decades ago. These days one would have to be crazy to go out and spend that kind of coin on a mic that can pretty much be duplicated for a third of the cost or less.
That said, I have run across a FEW vintage mics in my day that would be worth the money if I had that kind of budget. Several M49's, one U47 and a few others. But mostly,,,,,,no, not worth the price. If you like the investment market and are willing to potentially loose, then it can be fun.
All that said, there are still bargains out there for vintage mics that CAN'T be duplicated IMO. KM 84's, KM86's, KM54's, UM70's, etc.. Great mics that no one has "cloned" as of yet. Still available for a bargain. I'm picking up an LCR set of KM53's and a pair of KM86's this month along with a few other vintage mics (TLM170, Neumann 140 series). All of them mics that are not on the collector list, that sound awesome and don't command a fortune, and are super useful. Killer deals can still be had by the smart buyer.
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Post by jayfitz on Feb 29, 2016 10:39:33 GMT -6
I think it's really an example of the general world economy overall. If you are in this buisness, you know the a 47 is the Holy Grail. if there a chance io "invest" (not buy) in one, someone will do so thnking that in a few years they can make a healthy profit. We all, as people in the Music Business, are looking for the Nest Egg. There is no insurance, retirement plan, pensions or any other "benefits" that people not in The Biz may have access to. We know, or at least think, that investing in one of the most popular no-longer-available tools in this industry may be the ticket to some kind of prosperousfuture.
I don't think the current majority of 47 buyers and sellers are doing so because they want "that sound". More like they want that financial bump.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 29, 2016 10:43:26 GMT -6
It's a collectors market for rich and/or trust funders. Not for everyday users. The guys that have em and use em mostly bought them decades ago. These days one would have to be crazy to go out and spend that kind of coin on a mic that can pretty much be duplicated for a third of the cost or less. That said, I have run across a FEW vintage mics in my day that would be worth the money if I had that kind of budget. Several M49's, one U47 and a few others. But mostly,,,,,,no, not worth the price. If you like the investment market and are willing to potentially loose, then it can be fun. All that said, there are still bargains out there for vintage mics that CAN'T be duplicated IMO. KM 84's, KM86's, KM54's, UM70's, etc.. Great mics that no one has "cloned" as of yet. Still available for a bargain. I'm picking up an LCR set of KM53's and a pair of KM86's this month along with a few other vintage mics (TLM170, Neumann 140 series). All of them mics that are not on the collector list, that sound awesome and don't command a fortune, and are super useful. Killer deals can still be had by the smart buyer. The KM 184 is, if the people at Neumann do not lie to me, exactly the same design as the KM 84??? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 29, 2016 10:47:21 GMT -6
It's a collectors market for rich and/or trust funders. Not for everyday users. The guys that have em and use em mostly bought them decades ago. These days one would have to be crazy to go out and spend that kind of coin on a mic that can pretty much be duplicated for a third of the cost or less. That said, I have run across a FEW vintage mics in my day that would be worth the money if I had that kind of budget. Several M49's, one U47 and a few others. But mostly,,,,,,no, not worth the price. If you like the investment market and are willing to potentially loose, then it can be fun. All that said, there are still bargains out there for vintage mics that CAN'T be duplicated IMO. KM 84's, KM86's, KM54's, UM70's, etc.. Great mics that no one has "cloned" as of yet. Still available for a bargain. I'm picking up an LCR set of KM53's and a pair of KM86's this month along with a few other vintage mics (TLM170, Neumann 140 series). All of them mics that are not on the collector list, that sound awesome and don't command a fortune, and are super useful. Killer deals can still be had by the smart buyer. The KM 184 is, if the people at Neumann do not lie to me, exactly the same design as the KM 84??? They lied to you then. KM184 is transformerless. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 29, 2016 10:50:01 GMT -6
Dude, I hear UM70s go for like $8k now!
I'm trying to make that stick.
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Post by drbill on Feb 29, 2016 11:06:31 GMT -6
It's a collectors market for rich and/or trust funders. Not for everyday users. The guys that have em and use em mostly bought them decades ago. These days one would have to be crazy to go out and spend that kind of coin on a mic that can pretty much be duplicated for a third of the cost or less. That said, I have run across a FEW vintage mics in my day that would be worth the money if I had that kind of budget. Several M49's, one U47 and a few others. But mostly,,,,,,no, not worth the price. If you like the investment market and are willing to potentially loose, then it can be fun. All that said, there are still bargains out there for vintage mics that CAN'T be duplicated IMO. KM 84's, KM86's, KM54's, UM70's, etc.. Great mics that no one has "cloned" as of yet. Still available for a bargain. I'm picking up an LCR set of KM53's and a pair of KM86's this month along with a few other vintage mics (TLM170, Neumann 140 series). All of them mics that are not on the collector list, that sound awesome and don't command a fortune, and are super useful. Killer deals can still be had by the smart buyer. The KM 184 is, if the people at Neumann do not lie to me, exactly the same design as the KM 84??? A 184 is decidedly NOT the same microphone. It might have the same capsule, but it is transformerLESS and sounds significantly brighter and doesn't have the reach or the tone of the 84. I have a hard time believing anyone at Neumann could say it's the same mic.... |
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 29, 2016 11:13:10 GMT -6
The KM 184 is, if the people at Neumann do not lie to me, exactly the same design as the KM 84??? A 184 is decidedly NOT the same microphone. It might have the same capsule, but it is transformerLESS and sounds significantly brighter and doesn't have the reach or the tone of the 84. I have a hard time believing anyone at Neumann could say it's the same mic.... Maybe they meant the capsule and the rest was my ADD that's because of the  ?? I did use... |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Feb 29, 2016 12:29:53 GMT -6
People with more money than brains, chasing the dream! Funny thing is most of these guys who can afford the real vintage deal don't understand they are allready living the dresm!
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Feb 29, 2016 12:31:07 GMT -6
It's a collectors market for rich and/or trust funders. Not for everyday users. The guys that have em and use em mostly bought them decades ago. These days one would have to be crazy to go out and spend that kind of coin on a mic that can pretty much be duplicated for a third of the cost or less. That said, I have run across a FEW vintage mics in my day that would be worth the money if I had that kind of budget. Several M49's, one U47 and a few others. But mostly,,,,,,no, not worth the price. If you like the investment market and are willing to potentially loose, then it can be fun. All that said, there are still bargains out there for vintage mics that CAN'T be duplicated IMO. KM 84's, KM86's, KM54's, UM70's, etc.. Great mics that no one has "cloned" as of yet. Still available for a bargain. I'm picking up an LCR set of KM53's and a pair of KM86's this month along with a few other vintage mics (TLM170, Neumann 140 series). All of them mics that are not on the collector list, that sound awesome and don't command a fortune, and are super useful. Killer deals can still be had by the smart buyer. The KM 184 is, if the people at Neumann do not lie to me, exactly the same design as the KM 84??? [br Nothing the same except the 8 & 4! |
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Post by rowmat on Feb 29, 2016 12:36:49 GMT -6
According to Sennheiser (Neumann) the KM184 has the same capsule element as the KM84.
However the capsule housing itself is different and not interchangeable with the KM84.
The capsule venting is also quite different and is probably tailored to give the the 184 it's slightly rising treble response.
Although KM84's have been discontinued since 1992 original KM84 capsules are still available new.
I recently purchased two brand new KK84 capsules from Neumann so I could convert my pair of KM85's to KM84's.
As far as the difference between KM84's and KM184's is concerned the 184's are slightly brighter (though not as bright as claimed by many).
The most obvious difference to my ears is the 184's sound harder than KM84's probably due to their faster transient response being transformer-less.
The KM84's seem to have a perfect transient response for most things.
Neither too hard or too soft.
The are detailed (great mids) without ever becoming aggressive or harsh.
Being almost ruler flat you tend to notice just how good the KM84's mids are as they are not overpowered by the exaggerated high end that many SDC's exhibit.
KM84's even work very well on upright bass and can sound excellent on vocals provided you use NASA certified pop shielding.
My KM184's are more likely to get used on things like nylon stringed guitars than say an already bright steel string Taylor for example.
Funnily enough my KM54 is even brighter than the KM184 and is super detailed but without the hardness.
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Post by wiz on Feb 29, 2016 15:20:40 GMT -6
According to Sennheiser (Neumann) the KM184 has the same capsule element as the KM84. However the capsule housing itself is different and not interchangeable with the KM84. The capsule venting is also quite different and is probably tailored to give the the 184 it's slightly rising treble response. Although KM84's have been discontinued since 1992 original KM84 capsules are still available new. I recently purchased two brand new KK84 capsules from Neumann so I could convert my pair of KM85's to KM84's. As far as the difference between KM84's and KM184's is concerned the 184's are slightly brighter (though not as bright as claimed by many). The most obvious difference to my ears is the 184's sound harder than KM84's probably due to their faster transient response being transformer-less. The KM84's seem to have a perfect transient response for most things. Neither too hard or too soft. The are detailed (great mids) without ever becoming aggressive or harsh. Being almost ruler flat you tend to notice just how good the KM84's mids are as they are not overpowered by the exaggerated high end that many SDC's exhibit. KM84's even work very well on upright bass and can sound excellent on vocals provided you use NASA certified pop shielding. My KM184's are more likely to get used on things like nylon stringed guitars than say an already bright steel string Taylor for example. Funnily enough my KM54 is even brighter than the KM184 and is super detailed but without the hardness. Hi how much did they cost you? and did you get em from Senny In Oz? cheers Wiz |
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Post by rowmat on Feb 29, 2016 15:37:26 GMT -6
According to Sennheiser (Neumann) the KM184 has the same capsule element as the KM84. However the capsule housing itself is different and not interchangeable with the KM84. The capsule venting is also quite different and is probably tailored to give the the 184 it's slightly rising treble response. Although KM84's have been discontinued since 1992 original KM84 capsules are still available new. I recently purchased two brand new KK84 capsules from Neumann so I could convert my pair of KM85's to KM84's. As far as the difference between KM84's and KM184's is concerned the 184's are slightly brighter (though not as bright as claimed by many). The most obvious difference to my ears is the 184's sound harder than KM84's probably due to their faster transient response being transformer-less. The KM84's seem to have a perfect transient response for most things. Neither too hard or too soft. The are detailed (great mids) without ever becoming aggressive or harsh. Being almost ruler flat you tend to notice just how good the KM84's mids are as they are not overpowered by the exaggerated high end that many SDC's exhibit. KM84's even work very well on upright bass and can sound excellent on vocals provided you use NASA certified pop shielding. My KM184's are more likely to get used on things like nylon stringed guitars than say an already bright steel string Taylor for example. Funnily enough my KM54 is even brighter than the KM184 and is super detailed but without the hardness. Hi how much did they cost you? and did you get em from Senny In Oz? cheers Wiz The KK84 capsules cost $941.81 AUD each including GST. I ordered them through Sennheiser in Sydney but they had to come from Germany. About three weeks. I previously bought a s/h KK84 capsule off eBay to use with a KM85 I bought a year ago. That capsule cost around $640 AUD s/h and was like new. Then in December 2015 I purchased a boxed pair of near mint KM85's for $1800 AUD and began looking for another two KK84 capsules. As KK84's don't appear s/h very often and I felt it was unlikely I would find two s/h capsules that would be closely matched so I decided to buy a new pair. Overall the new capsules are only about $300 AUD each more than buying s/h capsules of unknown condition. So I now have a pair of near mint KM84's with brand new capsules plus an additional pair of KM85 capsules for $3,900 AUD for the lot which equates to around $2,800 USD. You may find some slightly cheaper KM84's but I very much doubt in this condition with new capsules. Attachment Deleted |
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Post by wiz on Feb 29, 2016 16:35:11 GMT -6
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Post by rowmat on Feb 29, 2016 16:44:01 GMT -6
If you look at the US and English prices for new KK84 capsules it's actually cheaper to buy them locally through Senneheiser Australia than import them yourself by the time you work out the exchange rate and postage. |
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Post by rowmat on Feb 29, 2016 18:09:21 GMT -6
The KK84 capsules cost $941.81 AUD each including GST. I ordered them through Sennheiser in Sydney but they had to come from Germany. About three weeks. I previously bought a s/h KK84 capsule off eBay to use with a KM85 I bought a year ago. That capsule cost around $640 AUD s/h and was like new. Then in December 2015 I purchased a boxed pair of near mint KM85's for $1800 AUD and began looking for another two KK84 capsules. As KK84's don't appear s/h very often and I felt it was unlikely I would find two s/h capsules that would be closely matched so I decided to buy a new pair. Overall the new capsules are only about $300 AUD each more than buying s/h capsules of unknown condition. So I now have a pair of near mint KM84's with brand new capsules plus an additional pair of KM85 capsules for $3,900 AUD for the lot which equates to around $2,800 USD. You may find some slightly cheaper KM84's but I very much doubt in this condition with new capsules. Thanks for the info... really interesting once my feeble American brain translated that s/h meant Second Hand and not Shipping/Handling like it does in the US  Seriously though, been looking for a pair of 84's and have seen a bunch of 85's might do what you did. My pair of KM85's worked out to around $1300 USD ($650 each) without the new KK84 capsules. KM85's do seem to have risen in price somewhat as they used to be about 1/2 the price of KM84's. The upside is it's generally easier to find KM85's in much better condition than a lot of KM84's appear to be. Some of the current crop of KM84's on eBay look pretty trashed. Example: www.ebay.com/itm/NEUMANN-KM84I-VINTAGE-CLASSIC-CONDENSER-MICROPHONE-WITH-CLIP-POUCH-KM-84-LQQK1-/301833030832?hash=item4646a68cb0:g:MTQAAOSwSHZWe1PnIf you picked up a clean KM85 for around $700 USD and a new KK84 capsule for around $550 USD you would have an excellent KM84 and a spare KK85 capsule. Surprisingly the KK85 capsule does come in handy for close micing boomy guitars, hi-hats, mandolins and anything where I don't need/want too much low end. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 2, 2016 22:27:45 GMT -6
you can build a clone for a 10th the price, that equals or surpasses the originals with some fine tuning(MKU47/mataC12), only people who don't understand electronics, or believe in voodoo don't believe it to be the case. Any skeptics are welcome to grab your originals and come by my place to compare them to my clones,.... no, i won't trade you 8) Tony totally stole my MKU-47. He took advantage of me in my time of weakness. (See following post) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 2, 2016 22:34:35 GMT -6
I totally have to say - after many sales and re-buys - I've settled on the fact that 90% of the sound of the mic is the capsule. Shannon - Shannon - is really, really good at what he does. I'm sure there are other very talented capsule makers (I've heard clips of Tony's C12 with timcampbell capsule and it was freaking glorious), but I haven't been around them like I have with Shannon. At this point, I wouldn't put BIG money into a production mic. IMHO, anything over $3500 is pretty exorbitant. Now, if you want to jump in the vintage market, that's a different story - but I believe it's a bubble that is reaching its limit. All this to say - it's a new, wonderful time we're in. Take advantage of the amazing boutique craftsmanship that's available these days! |
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?? I did use...
