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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 23, 2016 19:58:01 GMT -6
Cause that's what everyone is listening on anyway. We spend hundreds of thousands to produce this music and people listen on earbuds which can't produce two thirds of what we originally intended. So do tell, how do ME's manage to get a listenable mix for that crap. I mean, it's loud and good mixes usually do not distort on even iPhone speakers. Whats the secret??
Chime in even if it's a theory. Lets get this discussion started because it's very relevant for the time in which we live.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 23, 2016 20:15:04 GMT -6
Well doesn't apple or iTunes have a mastering plug/program that you can use when you load stuff into iTunes ?
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 23, 2016 23:08:44 GMT -6
slap a bandpass filter across your mix from 400 to 2k, you should hear every element of your mix in a balanced way, that will ensure everything will be heard on all sub par devices, that said, i wouldn't think for a second of considering how a mix "sounds" on an iphone, seriously, you will never make it sound any better beyond being just heard with a tiny cheesy phone speaker, i would never make a single decision with the idea of "making a better iphone mix".. in mind.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Feb 24, 2016 2:43:14 GMT -6
a lot of earbuds have a surprisingly full range to them. my cheap $6 samsung earbuds sound pretty great to me, mainly because they seal really well. they sound better than my closed-back headphones (Sennheiser HD280s), but not as good as my HD650s or Focals. I think it's important to remember that most people are most likely to listen via earbuds(gym, walking around, kids), 2nd most likely via car stereo(commuters), 3rd is probably built-in computer speakers, and finally every other type of speaker(shopping, construction dudes using a boombox, dudes with home studios, etc) bringing up the rear.
Have you tried buying a pair of cheap earbuds (find some that seal well) and listened to your mixes or mixes of your favorite tunes on it? Ain't nothin' wrong with grabbing a 1/8"-1/4" adapter and plugging some earbuds into the headphone jack of your interface for a couple minutes while working on a tune!
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 24, 2016 5:45:34 GMT -6
Apple Earbuds... NS 10s more importand than ever before...
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 24, 2016 7:54:24 GMT -6
a lot of earbuds have a surprisingly full range to them. my cheap $6 samsung earbuds sound pretty great to me, mainly because they seal really well. they sound better than my closed-back headphones (Sennheiser HD280s), but not as good as my HD650s or Focals. I think it's important to remember that most people are most likely to listen via earbuds(gym, walking around, kids), 2nd most likely via car stereo(commuters), 3rd is probably built-in computer speakers, and finally every other type of speaker(shopping, construction dudes using a boombox, dudes with home studios, etc) bringing up the rear. Have you tried buying a pair of cheap earbuds (find some that seal well) and listened to your mixes or mixes of your favorite tunes on it? Ain't nothin' wrong with grabbing a 1/8"-1/4" adapter and plugging some earbuds into the headphone jack of your interface for a couple minutes while working on a tune! Yeah I had pair of Monster ear buds that sounded good. But your idea about listening to mixes straight from the console to earbuds or other small mediums has a lot of merit. Think I'll try it. Thanks Chuck.
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Post by donr on Feb 24, 2016 10:03:33 GMT -6
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Post by rowmat on Feb 24, 2016 10:12:15 GMT -6
TUTORIAL - How to master for an iPhone in five easy steps. (Extreme Crush Method)
Step 1. Take iPhone Step 2. Place iPhone on ground Step 3. Take sledgehammer Step 4. Raise sledgehammer above head and strike iPhone with full force Step 5. Master normally
That is all. As you 'friggin' were!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 24, 2016 11:51:36 GMT -6
Sorry I mentioned it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 24, 2016 12:18:01 GMT -6
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919
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Post by ericn on Feb 24, 2016 12:21:14 GMT -6
Take a listen through the earbuds while mastering.
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Post by popmann on Feb 24, 2016 12:31:06 GMT -6
The lack of distortion has to do with a combination of flatlined mastering and Soundcheck pulling it to the -14dbfs loudness standard. If you leave peaks, it can distort the little phone speakers....if you turn soundcheck off and let the DR6 master go a full scale, the RMS will distort it.
Earbuds, different thing--those are mostly just shitty headphones, which basically are gonna follow the same "what will sound good" as any other shitty headphones. Brickwalling helps them sound "fuller", since it makes the 50-250hz like a constant pulse, and to GET a master that loud requires cutting this SHIT out of the 1-3khz range where so many peaks live AND earbuds overemphasize....so, combination--this is why people think horrible, horrible remasters are "fuller". They are in fact SLIGHTER on the bass on a big system....they just flatline the low end that's left so that it can be heard on shitty speakers as "more".
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Post by popmann on Feb 24, 2016 12:34:43 GMT -6
But, when I first read this, my first thought was "why do you care?" Because I don't know anyone who listens on phone SPEAKERS regularly....and those who listen on shitty speakers spend the least on music of anyone I've ever known. Nothing or next to nothing. So....it's a bit like a bank asking what kind of coffee bank robbers prefer while deciding what to brew in the lobby. I was kind of curious to what got you thinking about targeting the masses of the tone deaf.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 24, 2016 13:30:10 GMT -6
But, when I first read this, my first thought was "why do you care?" Because I don't know anyone who listens on phone SPEAKERS regularly....and those who listen on shitty speakers spend the least on music of anyone I've ever known. Nothing or next to nothing. So....it's a bit like a bank asking what kind of coffee bank robbers prefer while deciding what to brew in the lobby. I was kind of curious to what got you thinking about targeting the masses of the tone deaf. Because you said it right, the masses. You say you don't know anyone who listens to music on phone speakers but the people I know are about 99 to 1 listening on phone speakers and laptops etc. Nobody I know listens to music on good systems, nobody except us audio guys. Don't think that this never crosses the mind of todays top ME's working for labels. IT DOES FACTOR IN because it's relevant for the world in which we live. We can be purists if we like and that's fine if we expect to be the only ones listening to our music. My tracks have been played half a million times in the last year. Of those spins, Id wagger everything I own that 95% of those listeners where using phones or computers. So yes, it matters to me.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 24, 2016 13:53:08 GMT -6
But, when I first read this, my first thought was "why do you care?" Because I don't know anyone who listens on phone SPEAKERS regularly....and those who listen on shitty speakers spend the least on music of anyone I've ever known. Nothing or next to nothing. So....it's a bit like a bank asking what kind of coffee bank robbers prefer while deciding what to brew in the lobby. I was kind of curious to what got you thinking about targeting the masses of the tone deaf. Because you said it right, the masses. You say you don't know anyone who listens to music on phone speakers but the people I know are about 99 to 1 listening on phone speakers and laptops etc. Nobody I know listens to music on good systems, nobody except us audio guys. Don't think that this never crosses the mind of todays top ME's working for labels. IT DOES FACTOR IN because it's relevant for the world in which we live. We can be purists if we like and that's fine if we expect to be the only ones listening to our music. My tracks have been played half a million times in the last year. Of those spins, Id wagger everything I own that 95% of those listeners where using phones or computers. So yes, it matters to me.nothing you do to "improve" a mix for an iphone/laptop would be worth it, they aren't capable of representing anything meaningful beyond what i posted in my original post, I suppose you could filter off the bottom up to about 600hz to unload excess energy from the tiny little speaker? but it would yield little if any improvement in sound quality on those tiny speakers, on the other hand it would have devastating consequences for any other medium it's played on, and listening in the car is still the #1 way music is digested according to some recent statistics I read.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 24, 2016 14:09:43 GMT -6
Like anything else, you probably just want to be sure somethings isn't wrong, but not make any serious decisions for earbuds. At AES 2013, there was a guy selling a way to let you instantly hear a playback sample of different codecs. Unfortunately, it was really pricey, like $495 I think. I've forgotten if it was software, hardware or both.
That could be helpful when mixing, as long as you can keep track of matching the particular codec's mix to the place it's headed. There's a CD mix, high res file mix, AIFF mix, mp3 mix, and heaven knows what else. Some of the guys here are much more familiar with this than I am. I don't have the answer how best to do this, but sooner or later I'll talk to the cat who mastered my last album and see what he says.
I listen to my mixes on ear buds occasionally just to check. I do have a good pair though. My Sony earbuds cost $179. but were well worth it. Another friend spent $500 getting custom fit earbuds, he was all lit up about them and gave them to me and said "listen". I did, and wish I could have put on a better face than I did. I handed him my Sony's, said "try this", and his face drooped too, the Sony's killed his buds.
I guess I should always try a listen with the ubiquitous shitty white buds. I'm glad you mentioned it Cowboy.
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Post by donr on Feb 24, 2016 14:18:21 GMT -6
It would be silly not to check mixes and masters on phones and cheap earbuds. I got into Daft Punk's record two years ago hearing it on my phone, (earbuds and tucked into a room corner for the horn effect,) and then Bluetoothed to a JAM speaker in hotel rooms. I knew it was a great record because it sounded good on both.
Last night I happened to hear the Daft Punk record on Meyer X-10's in a mastering room. It sounded just great, but what is mostly great about that record also comes across even on a phone.
Most my listening is on earbuds and in my automobiles, which have better sound playback than most of the stereo systems I've owned for the last 40 years.
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Post by popmann on Feb 24, 2016 14:28:55 GMT -6
But, when I first read this, my first thought was "why do you care?" Because I don't know anyone who listens on phone SPEAKERS regularly....and those who listen on shitty speakers spend the least on music of anyone I've ever known. Nothing or next to nothing. So....it's a bit like a bank asking what kind of coffee bank robbers prefer while deciding what to brew in the lobby. I was kind of curious to what got you thinking about targeting the masses of the tone deaf. Because you said it right, the masses. You say you don't know anyone who listens to music on phone speakers but the people I know are about 99 to 1 listening on phone speakers and laptops etc. Nobody I know listens to music on good systems, nobody except us audio guys. Don't think that this never crosses the mind of todays top ME's working for labels. IT DOES FACTOR IN because it's relevant for the world in which we live. We can be purists if we like and that's fine if we expect to be the only ones listening to our music. My tracks have been played half a million times in the last year. Of those spins, Id wagger everything I own that 95% of those listeners where using phones or computers. So yes, it matters to me. You're missing the point. The masses have NEVER listened on good systems. they don't care about sound. And thus there's ZERO reason to cater to them. They like whatever hook or beat or whatever it is in the music--they don't like BAD sound....they don't CARE....not the same thing. They listen however it's convenient and cheap. In the case of your Soundcloud spins, FREELY on of course a computer or phone, because that's the only real option. I'm dismissing the masses because they admittedly don't CARE....not because I don't want them to listen....you're taking the position that they must care how it sounds on their iPhone speaker from your caring how things sound. Let's get into specifics, philosophy aside--you think your "masters" sound better or worse on an iPhone speaker than some commercial example? I just pulled my phone out of my pocket and played Mayer's Continuum--the DR11 vinyl master (obviously digitized) and the DR7 CD. The vinyl sounded better on the phone speaker by not a little bit. You can hear the mastering compressors and limiters clearer on the phone speaker than on a full range system-and likely the needing to ensure a solid mono/sum compatibility is GOD when it comes to translating to a little phone or iPad speaker, which even if there's two, are functionally mono. If you're having issues, it will be with mono compatibility or being able to clearly hear some midrange artifacts being masked on your full range speakers. I, having never listened to my iPhone's speakers non accidentally, just pushed play on Mayer's Conitnuum--the DR7 CD master and the DR11 or 12 vinyl master (obviously digitized)...you could hear all kinds of artifacts on the CD of compressors pumping and midrange "holes" that weren't there on the mix level master. One tune I clicked on had something weird about the snare ambience on the CD master....anyway--my point is, I think you're creating a kind of false dichotomy of sorts--the vinyl master sounds better on my "big" listening system....on my "decent" over ear phones its' the closest fwiw--and now on the little phone speaker, it's absurd. You're implying here that something needs to be done differently to make it sound good on awful little systems than bigger more high def systems, when really, it just introduces a bottleneck making good lousy and great sound more similar than the good system. But seriously--if you have a specific tune that doesn't translate it....filter it and click the mono button on the console--do you hear a variation on the same non-translation?
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 24, 2016 14:32:17 GMT -6
Yeah I've going back and forth mono/stereo a lot lately and it helps a great deal.
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Post by rowmat on Feb 24, 2016 15:40:36 GMT -6
Hehe! Although folks here are predominately discussing listening on iPhones using earbuds I'm also often seeing people (especially kids) listening to music over the internal iPhone speakers, or at best an iPad or tablet. So we're probably talking something like a 400hz - 10,000hz response. Granted it's not as common as earbud listening but I'm hearing more clients beginning to ask whether they should consider mastering for playback on extremely bass shy systems such as tablets and laptops. SALLY: "Hey Felicity checkout this new band!" Holds iPhone towards Felicity FELICITY: "Wow sounds cool! Which torrent site did you download that from?" So what level of bass harmonics are needed to even give a sense there's any bass at all on the track? Trying to balance playback on multiple systems is getting more extreme it seems. As a kid I spent most of my spare time and $$$ building hi-fi amps and speakers. My friends used to bring their albums around to my house so they could listen to them on my gear. Several of them blamed me for infecting them with the 'hi-fi' bug. Mixing for playback on a 4" inch speaker is one thing but a 10mm speaker?... Better go get the sledgehammer!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 24, 2016 16:45:13 GMT -6
I se a lot of people wearing headphones lately, instead of earphones. headphones will carry almost all of our details to them, so it's still worth mixing properly, and not with just earbuds/iphone speaker in mind.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 24, 2016 22:07:13 GMT -6
I think I might have figured out how to mix and master for IPhones. Mix on Amphion speakers
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Post by yotonic on Feb 24, 2016 23:38:49 GMT -6
I'm not sure I would master for earbuds. My observations are that the people using earbuds are "in general" high school & college kids with little or no money and most likely to be listening to music via streaming. Here are some facts that I find bear true:
35% of millennials 13-35 use earbuds some part of the time to listen to music. Millennials 13-35 are still listening to the majority of their music on the radio and internet radio Adults listen to 64% of their music in the car 93% of the U.S. population spends more than 25 hours each week listening to music The only segments growing are streaming, vinyl, and live concerts
On average, U.S. consumers report spending $109 each year on music. Live music events account for more than half of total music activity spending each year. Concert goers spend substantially more on music than the average consumer. Concert goers are predominately college educated males 24-35 they represent 64% of repeat ticket sales. They are twice as likely to have purchased tickets to live sporting events. The average ticket price in most markets is around $35 for a touring non-mega act.
75% of Americans say they actively choose to listen to music, which is more than they claim to actively choose to watch TV (73%). iTunes digital track sales are falling at nearly the same rate as CD sales, as music fans are turning to streaming Research shows that digital music isn't as easy to listen to as vinyl and makes it more difficult to forge an emotional connection with the music. Listeners are less likely to finish a song. 64% of teenagers discover new on Youtube followed by streaming site Pandora and then Spotify Adults past 35 are less inclined to listen to new music The top 1 percent of bands and solo artists now earn about 80 percent of all revenue from recorded music
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 25, 2016 7:00:13 GMT -6
Kind of agree. Don't really care what plebs thing, they'll just crank it anyway. It's the feels they get, not the sound, that they're after.
The Dub and the DeeJay crew are actually the only guys really serious about their sound systems and they listen to boring garbage like Dance Music and Dub.
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Post by stratboy on Feb 25, 2016 18:35:47 GMT -6
I think earbuds are just another reference, like Auratones or your car. We want our mixes to sound good on as many references as possible.
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