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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 16, 2016 16:32:13 GMT -6
I had an idea since we have several people who make these and use different one's of these summing mixers on RGO. If you guys would like to participate, I'm sure it would be appreciated. Simply right click on the link below and "save file as" to your computer. Then run the mix through your summing amp and send the file back to me. I'll level match and post up the results here on this thread so everyone can hear the differences. The file is a straight bounce from the DAW at 88.2/32 with nothing on the bus at all. The only rule is, to please refrain from using any additional processing other than what your summing box can do (no compressors, eq's etc, digital or analog). If your box has features such as width control, saturation etc, by all means use it. Make it sound as good as it can but ONLY with what your mixer is equipped with. This should be fun and with all the interest in summing mixers, it should sell a few for you. I for one am looking intently at these as I'm in the market myself. Thinking of ditching the console. My email is cowboycoalminer@gmail.com for the return file. Please print at the same sample rate. dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65640533/Like%20The%20Rain%20Mix%201.wav
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 16, 2016 16:48:43 GMT -6
So is it just two channels? A stereo mix?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,936
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Post by ericn on Feb 16, 2016 16:50:46 GMT -6
Shoot out ? I say we just shoot them!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 16, 2016 17:10:16 GMT -6
So is it just two channels? A stereo mix? Yes, 2 channels for a stereo mix. We will still hear the affects of the boxes.
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Post by ragan on Feb 16, 2016 17:18:08 GMT -6
Yeah how many tracks? Gotta be at least 8 right?
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 16, 2016 18:35:08 GMT -6
Yeah how many tracks? Gotta be at least 8 right? Doesn't have to be. Just send a stereo send out and recapture it in stereo. I even do this sometimes on the console if I'm in a hurry.
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Post by ragan on Feb 16, 2016 18:54:36 GMT -6
Yeah how many tracks? Gotta be at least 8 right? Doesn't have to be. Just send a stereo send out and recapture it in stereo. I even do this sometimes on the console if I'm in a hurry. Certainly won't hurt to hear it. I haven't been able to get the same kind of sonic difference I get with the D Box sum by just running stereo out and back in but I really haven't done it that much. Just a couple times to try printing through a pair of preamps.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 16, 2016 19:14:28 GMT -6
Yeah how many tracks? Gotta be at least 8 right? Doesn't have to be. Just send a stereo send out and recapture it in stereo. I even do this sometimes on the console if I'm in a hurry. The effect on summing is more audible the more single tracks the dam thing sums... Its a good idea to provide a few more tracks. Best with Fxs etc. I am in doubt that you will hear big differences with the ones are based on solid state technology.... I am keen to hear the Wurtz. I could provide Allen and Heath cheap summing mixer and the same thing with a stero 1073 as pickup amp for some 70s sound.
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Post by popmann on Feb 16, 2016 19:20:55 GMT -6
Yeah, honestly--you're testing stereo line amp color. which IS an aspect of using a summing unit....but, not the only or most important, IME/O.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 16, 2016 20:10:32 GMT -6
Yeah, honestly--you're testing stereo line amp color. which IS an aspect of using a summing unit....but, not the only or most important, IME/O. I would argue that it is most important. I'm not sure of the schematics of these summing mixers but I'm to assume they have a master section same as a console? If so, then you'll hear the mojo of that same as if you'd sent 100 channels to it. The master section of a console is where the magic happens no?
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Post by deehope on Feb 16, 2016 20:20:05 GMT -6
I think that's wheRe the color happens but the channels are where the width/separation happens? Yeah, honestly--you're testing stereo line amp color. which IS an aspect of using a summing unit....but, not the only or most important, IME/O. I would argue that it is most important. I'm not sure of the schematics of these summing mixers but I'm to assume they have a master section same as a console? If so, then you'll hear the mojo of that same as if you'd sent 100 channels to it. The master section of a console is where the magic happens no?
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 16, 2016 20:25:21 GMT -6
I think that's wheRe the color happens but the channels are where the width/separation happens? I would argue that it is most important. I'm not sure of the schematics of these summing mixers but I'm to assume they have a master section same as a console? If so, then you'll hear the mojo of that same as if you'd sent 100 channels to it. The master section of a console is where the magic happens no? To my ear its not seperated it sounds more like a record, like a Band. ITB summing sounds seperated to me....
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 16, 2016 21:25:39 GMT -6
Summing is about numbers, It'll impart something on 2 channels Yes, but summing is about combining numbers of tracks, more u dump in the greater the effect, dumping a two track mix is not going to tell u enough IMO, get 8 finished stems and U'll start to see the diffs, 16 really shows, 24 and up big time, otherwise just dump 2 through vp28s or the silver bullet and call it good.
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Post by popmann on Feb 16, 2016 21:32:53 GMT -6
Yeah, honestly--you're testing stereo line amp color. which IS an aspect of using a summing unit....but, not the only or most important, IME/O. I would argue that it is most important. I'm not sure of the schematics of these summing mixers but I'm to assume they have a master section same as a console? If so, then you'll hear the mojo of that same as if you'd sent 100 channels to it. The master section of a console is where the magic happens no? Summing mixers aren't new. If you want mojo, most have abandoned them years ago for a colorful two buss chain. The master section of a console is the entire summing mixer. You don't get the mojo just using the output stage, it's about summing it all at low level and then using an amp to bring it back....passing stereo tracks is like using the tape return on your mixer--do you still hear it's "mojo"? You know you can set your console right now to unity and sum (only) with it, right? That would be the first step if you're interested....if that doesn't do it for you, but mixing on it does, search over--summing mixer ain't your tool. If it DOES....then you can shrink your power usage and physical footprint a whole lot with a racked up summing unit.
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Post by drbill on Feb 16, 2016 21:40:05 GMT -6
Bingo. I'd change "most" to "many" but you're dead on with this one..... I vote "summing" as the most mis-used and abused word in pro audio today. It's amazing how many don't realize what it actually is or how it all works.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 16, 2016 22:22:54 GMT -6
I would argue that it is most important. I'm not sure of the schematics of these summing mixers but I'm to assume they have a master section same as a console? If so, then you'll hear the mojo of that same as if you'd sent 100 channels to it. The master section of a console is where the magic happens no? Summing mixers aren't new. If you want mojo, most have abandoned them years ago for a colorful two buss chain. The master section of a console is the entire summing mixer. You don't get the mojo just using the output stage, it's about summing it all at low level and then using an amp to bring it back....passing stereo tracks is like using the tape return on your mixer--do you still hear it's "mojo"? You know you can set your console right now to unity and sum (only) with it, right? That would be the first step if you're interested....if that doesn't do it for you, but mixing on it does, search over--summing mixer ain't your tool. If it DOES....then you can shrink your power usage and physical footprint a whole lot with a racked up summing unit. I do set it to unity and sum through it. Hell, I've got most of the channels locked in place with console strip tape top and bottom. I can still hear a huge difference just passing a stereo mix through mine. That is, a difference from ITB.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 16, 2016 22:23:28 GMT -6
Bingo. I'd change "most" to "many" but you're dead on with this one..... I vote "summing" as the most mis-used and abused word in pro audio today. It's amazing how many don't realize what it actually is or how it all works. Educate us.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 16, 2016 22:33:18 GMT -6
Seems to me that I'm looking for width and separation more than color. I would think the fact that you are doing he multiple tracks at once becomes a cumulative effect.
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Post by drbill on Feb 16, 2016 22:50:04 GMT -6
Bingo. I'd change "most" to "many" but you're dead on with this one..... I vote "summing" as the most mis-used and abused word in pro audio today. It's amazing how many don't realize what it actually is or how it all works. Educate us. I'm not a teacher. :-) But....since you asked..... Summing is the combining of signals. It can be done with numbers ITB once something is digitized, or with a simple resistor network if you're analog. There are no doubt many paths and theories on how to do this both ITB and OTB - but that's getting over my pay grade. (The next part is controversial, but I stand by my thoughts....) In the opinion of both Brad McGowan (one VERY smart dude with KILLER ears and design chops) and myself (one not so electronically smart dude, but a critical listener, a tireless console fiend and student of the term) the trick of summing - i.e.: the magic of it - is what happens after the combining of signals. In other words, the amplification and associated electronic doodads like transformers, opamps, tooobs, etc while getting the signal back to line level AFTER the summing takes place. If you pin your hopes on "summing" itself solving your mixing deficiencies, I'm afraid you will remain frustrated. The more transparent your summing (passive being the most transparent by definition), the more you will be disappointed, and the closer to ITB summing it will sound. In other words, summing thru a Folcrum into Grace or Millinnia pre's - vs - summing on a vintage API or NEVE will leave you with VERY, VERY different feelings.... Thats my non-geek simpleton answer -- which is all I'm qualified to give. :-) BTW, I didn't mean to say that YOU didn't know what summing was. I'm sure you do. It's just that everywhere I go I see that term used to mean everything from passive summing boxes, to active summing boxes, to mixers, to consoles, to simple outboard like - "hey dude, just sum your mix thru an outboard compressor and it will RAWK!!!" Completely abused and misused use of the term "summing" to mean almost anything hardware patched into the output of a DAW. Add to that my belief that properly gain staged ITB and OTB passive summing are for all intents identical, and that it's what precedes, and more importantly follows the sum that makes the difference, and it's just.... Well....it gets tiresome. No harm intended. :-)
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 17, 2016 0:08:00 GMT -6
Yeah - I don't hear it doing anything to the mix other than enhancing the imaging...which is what I kind've want.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 17, 2016 1:05:08 GMT -6
I've been down this road and coming out on the other side here is what I know.....
I was taught and brought up on a SSL6000, there was something magic that console did when a mix was spread across it and I've never been able to replicate it and I was summing 16 channels and not just sending stems through two channels, I was using the pan and level pots like I would a mixer. I never could make the summing mixer really do what I wanted, I'd convinced myself I was, but when I did a mix ITB and kept my VP28's in I had the same sound, actually I kind of liked it more than the summing mixers.
I had this explained to me by an SSL tech once, it was all to do with the fact of small fractions of delays and the variance in the channels on the SSL that made the mixes have more depth and focus, crazy that it's like that but that was basically the gist. It's pretty much true, I remember doing a quick mix not all that long ago for someone on a Mackie 32x8 buss and I remember how it had that depth and how defined the center was.
The VP28's will make you think that your imaging is better and things are punchier because they are, the VP28's just do that for some reason, but, if you strip the summing off and print through those VP28's you'll be just as amazed as with the summing happening.
I would have to be in the camp these days of the flavor being what is on that 2-buss, it's what is making that punchy or gelled sound, not a network of resistors. That's my opinion and its one from many years of trying to figure it out. I'm not trying to diminish anyone using summers or anything, and if that makes you do better mixes then keep on rocking baby, but for me it was an illusion and an expense.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 17, 2016 1:09:13 GMT -6
Also, just to throw this out there, I was more floored by how much better the summing in Cubase sounded than Protools.... sure enough it's calculus has more mojo than PT IMHO.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 17, 2016 1:16:44 GMT -6
Yeah - I don't hear it doing anything to the mix other than enhancing the imaging...which is what I kind've want. which is the whole reason for doing it, compartmentalizing and solidity of image, especially in the low end, with a properly set up summing rig, the more channels you sum the bigger the benefit, there are also arguments for banking in channels of 8 to maintain headroom, and leave the load off the main summing bus of a console. I'd also add that passive voltage summing and ITB summing are nothing alike to my ears, the vagaries that make ITB mixing agonizing for me, all but disappear in the voltage domain.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 17, 2016 1:50:30 GMT -6
Also, just to throw this out there, I was more floored by how much better the summing in Cubase sounded than Protools.... sure enough it's calculus has more mojo than PT IMHO. really? come on man...
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Post by odyssey76 on Feb 17, 2016 4:24:44 GMT -6
Yeah - I don't hear it doing anything to the mix other than enhancing the imaging...which is what I kind've want. Depth, separation and width are my focus these days and what you describe in a summing mixer is exactly what I would be looking for as well. I remember hearing the 8 channel Dbox a few years ago. The differences were subtle but certainly noticeable. I remember the cymbals coming more to the front of the mix and slightly taller (both in a good way) and the sides of the mix getting wider. Space between instruments was more defined. Color is easy - just like a few have mentioned - run through outboard transformers, put some VP28's on the Mixbus, etc. Combine some nice summing with some nice color and things start getting exciting.
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