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Post by schmalzy on Feb 8, 2016 15:23:21 GMT -6
Yo, y'all!
I have a question for you all: How do you handle a situation in which you, the producer or mix engineer, have to track some extra parts to fill out arrangments?
A band came into the studio not long ago. We got a lot done in the short amount of time we had but I'm now halfway into the mixes and some of the sections of the arrangements need to be filled out with extra instrumentation.
I felt it when we were tracking but I wasn't sure. I'm 100% sure now. They're an independent three-piece rock band calling back to Joy Division with their sound - think Interpol or Slowdive. They wanted to keep everything as true to live as possible while cleaning it up a bit for the purposes of a good-sounding recording. As it turns out, they use crazy amounts of distortion, reverb, noisy playing and sheer volume to achieve the fullness live but wanted to get away from that crutch of "batter people with noise and volume." Now, under the microscope of recorded sound and in an environment with a loudness ceiling, certain sections of the basics get a little thin or sparse when the song is calling for more power or fullness.
Sooooo...I'm adding some extra parts. Mostly guitars or keys - whichever is most appropriate at the time.
How do you typically deal with that? Is it part of your "producing" duties or are you charging extra for your music-writing and musician talents? How does that change if you're only mixing and are now needing to deal with that arrangement issue? How are you being credited afterwards? "Additional [instruments] by [your name]?" "Music written by [band] and [your name]?"
In my particular case, I think it's too late to go back to the client and say anything like "well, it's going to be more money" when our arrangement was pretty much a flat fee per song situation. I'd love to know how others handle this sort of thing for the future, though.
So, like I said: How do you handle this sort of situation?
Thanks for the info and opinions, all!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 15:41:37 GMT -6
You weren't really clear on whether your role was producer or mixer, but in either case I'd talk to the band. Ask them if they think there are issues in the areas you feel are thin. Then go over what you might do and perhaps what you've already tried. Unless you're the producer working for a label with final say-so, then it's the band's call. It's really about building a trusting relationship.
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 8, 2016 15:49:52 GMT -6
It was just me and the band on tracking day and I was the only one managing the performances, trying to tailor the sounds, and trying to steer the songs when questions came up. So I guess I had considered myself the engineer and producer. I'm not necessarily looking for "how do I fix this situation;" I'm going to write and record the parts I think the songs need, put 'em in the rough mixes, and let the band have the final say. I'm more interested in "how do all you full-time professionals in the recording industry handle this sort of thing when it comes up?" Thanks for helping clarify the situation, ExponentialAudio! |
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Post by M57 on Feb 8, 2016 15:51:05 GMT -6
You could give them an example of the work you've done 'on spec.' They're getting everything they paid for, but tracks 27-32 will cost them because your services as a musician are not part of the deal.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Feb 8, 2016 16:06:19 GMT -6
you should always handle business before getting creative. I personally would not have played a note, without first discussing the idea with them. You're asking for them to turn around and say "hey, that sounds great, but we never asked for it, and can't pay you for it. can you just call it a part of the job of mixing?"
You should ask them if they are hiring you as "producer" or as "engineer/producer" or "engineer", and get it in writing.
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Post by svart on Feb 8, 2016 16:54:44 GMT -6
Besides the obvious "ask them" thing..
I always try to add some pads/synth first.. Just something with a similar feel to the rhythm guitar tone, and mainly just doing root notes of the melody. 9 times out of 10 this is all it needs to "fill out" the background. It doesn't need to be very loud, just enough to kind of make the blackness behind the guitars disappear.
Don't go wild, or the songs will start sounding too different..
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 8, 2016 16:54:48 GMT -6
If your producing you can play on the record so long as the band is cool with it. If you're asking about royalties, I don't think I'd get into it with a small time band. You're probably trading goodwill for monopoly money in this situation.
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Post by M57 on Feb 8, 2016 17:16:19 GMT -6
you should always handle business before getting creative. I personally would not have played a note, without first discussing the idea with them. You're asking for them to turn around and say "hey, that sounds great, but we never asked for it, and can't pay you for it. can you just call it a part of the job of mixing?" You should ask them if they are hiring you as "producer" or as "engineer/producer" or "engineer", and get it in writing. While optimally, I agree with NFC, because this is 'after the fact,' and they've all but declared bankruptcy - you're options are not optimal. You could tell them that you've 'experimented' with some tracks that beef things up, maybe give them a taste - but explain that the extra work involved would take too much of your time - however, because you've already contracted your fee, you feel compelled to give them a discount on this additional work if they are interested. |
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 8, 2016 17:19:34 GMT -6
That's exactly what I'm thinking in this case. I'm trying to go the extra mile to make sure these guys are happy and make sure whomever hears the songs will say "those turned out great." If "I wonder who produced it?" is the next thing to come out of their mouths, then that's great, too!
That's pretty close to what I'm doing. Some octaves of root notes filling the space between the bass and the guitar parts. "Make the blackness behind the guitars disappear" is a perfect phrase for what I was trying to do. I used a slow-ish attack pad and rhodes with some time-sync'd tremolo. The pad is filling the space and the rhodes is quietly reinforcing the prominent rhythms.
For the biggest moments in the songs I'm also adding wide-panned semi-distorted guitars playing the chord changes. A little thickness, a little scuzz, a bit of sustain, but not a lot of volume.
Thanks for loaning me the reinforcement and the insight, guys!
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Post by swurveman on Feb 9, 2016 8:02:13 GMT -6
It depends upon how good their ears are and how much you're going to do. I just redid a sucky guitar part in a dense mix and nobody said a word. I don't think I could get away with it doing more major changes. So, I'd ask in that situation.
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Post by Ward on Feb 9, 2016 10:03:48 GMT -6
I do that from time to time, but not without everyone's agreement, a general consensus on what is going to be added to anyone's art is only fair.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 9, 2016 10:11:27 GMT -6
Have you talked to the band about adding stuff?
Personally, if it were my band and the guy I hired to track/mix our album decided to add some parts to the songs (without consulting us), I'd be pissed and would probably hire a different guy for the job.
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 9, 2016 11:01:36 GMT -6
Re-reading my posts, I guess I didn't mention it: I talked to the band about it.
In fact, I talked briefly with the band about it after the tracking day was over and we had just finished listening to the tracking day mixes. Those guys had a hard out time and we were right up against it (they traveled 4+ hours to record with me and needed to leave so two of 'em could make it to work) so they had to split. I said basically what I mentioned above - something along the lines of "it feels like it's losing some power right when it needs to pick up intensity rather than lose it. How would we like to handle it? We've got a couple options:..." I didn't push hard because I wasn't 100% sure but I was fairly certain we were going to need to fill out the arrangement in those spots.
Then, when I was putting together the rough mixes, I heard all I needed to hear to be certain the arrangement was lacking. I sent the one rough off, explained my concerns, and sent another rough with my additions. Now we find ourselves where we are currently: one song's mix is approved (with my additions), one song's rough mix is approved (with my additions - it needs automation and some extra finishing with effects) and a third song that the band hasn't heard my rough mix for yet.
Sorry for leaving some details out, guys! I'm already long-winded (long-worded? long-fingered?) enough and I didn't want to make you all read too many more details!
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Post by noah shain on Feb 9, 2016 12:33:14 GMT -6
I add stuff to tracks a lot in situations like yours. I always talk to the band about it, see if they wanna play it first, and I never charge extra. I think of it as part of the job.
My wife probably thinks I'm an idiot.
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Post by Ward on Feb 9, 2016 12:49:23 GMT -6
I add stuff to tracks a lot in situations like yours. I always talk to the band about it, see if they wanna play it first, and I never charge extra. I think of it as part of the job. My wife probably thinks I'm an idiot. Hey, I don't charge for this either and even I think I'm an idiot in this manner. So, don't be too hard on yourself... many times producer turns into co-artist. Terry Thomas is one of the best known examples. His 90s work with latter day Bad Company and foreigner showed a lot of this. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Thomas_%28musician%29 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 13:07:21 GMT -6
Re-reading my posts, I guess I didn't mention it: I talked to the band about it. That makes all the difference. They knew they needed some help and you offered it. Hope everybody's happy with the outcome. Musicians can be funny that way. Often if you point out a problem first, they'll be on their back foot and will get pig-headed about the whole thing. Those are the players who need to "discover" the problem for themselves (even if you knew about it all along). This conversation has been interesting, since nowadays so many people have to play the dual role of producer and engineer. In my (classical) world I've been asked to do it a couple of times and it's really hard. One ear is listening for musicality and intonation and the other ear is listening for page turns and chair squeaks! |
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Post by knadles on Feb 9, 2016 13:13:09 GMT -6
Speaking as a musician...
If I pay you to do my recording and I come in and find a bunch of stuff you've added on your own, we're going to have words. It doesn't matter if you're "right," it's my art and if it sounds bald and I need to add more, that's my decision and also my art.
When I was studying recording at Columbia College a hundred years ago, one of my mentors was fond of quoting the Golden Rule: he who has the gold, rules.
In a record company situation, the producer has the gold. In a private deal between musicians and studio, the musicians have the gold.
Bottom line, it's their call. All you can do is advise.
Pete
EDIT: I see that you have discussed with the band. That's different. Now you're in the clear ethically. Just be aware that giving away services is a double-edged sword. For every customer you elate, you'll have one that will demand the same treatment. Not such a big deal if you're doing this as a hobby, but it can be a bad habit if you're making a professional run at recording. Just MHO as a former small business owner.
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Post by sean on Feb 9, 2016 14:08:38 GMT -6
I think if the band is ok with it, go for it. Depending on my comfort level with the band and/or producer, I'm happy to make suggestion like "a baritone might sound good in this song" or "I could hear keys" or "what about a marimba" and most of the time I have the band do it or at least try, and sometimes they just ask me to play what I hear. But, I would never add stuff to an artist song without their knowledge and be like "hey, listen to what I did to your music!". But when the creative juices are flowing in the studio I think it's totally fine to be active in the creative process on a musical level if you have that level of comfort with the musicians, and they do with you.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 11, 2016 9:45:06 GMT -6
Speaking as a musician... If I pay you to do my recording and I come in and find a bunch of stuff you've added on your own, we're going to have words. It doesn't matter if you're "right," it's my art and if it sounds bald and I need to add more, that's my decision and also my art. When I was studying recording at Columbia College a hundred years ago, one of my mentors was fond of quoting the Golden Rule: he who has the gold, rules. In a record company situation, the producer has the gold. In a private deal between musicians and studio, the musicians have the gold. Bottom line, it's their call. All you can do is advise. Pete EDIT: I see that you have discussed with the band. That's different. Now you're in the clear ethically. Just be aware that giving away services is a double-edged sword. For every customer you elate, you'll have one that will demand the same treatment. Not such a big deal if you're doing this as a hobby, but it can be a bad habit if you're making a professional run at recording. Just MHO as a former small business owner. Welcome, knadles! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 11, 2016 9:50:50 GMT -6
I think if the band is ok with it, go for it. Depending on my comfort level with the band and/or producer, I'm happy to make suggestion like "a baritone might sound good in this song" or "I could hear keys" or "what about a marimba" and most of the time I have the band do it or at least try, and sometimes they just ask me to play what I hear. But, I would never add stuff to an artist song without their knowledge and be like "hey, listen to what I did to your music!". But when the creative juices are flowing in the studio I think it's totally fine to be active in the creative process on a musical level if you have that level of comfort with the musicians, and they do with you. This ^^^ Your name will be attached to it, so you want to make it sound as good as possible. I always assume that me playing some stuff is part of the deal...(and like noah shain said, my wife would itemize everything like a cold-blooded killer and hand them the bill) but I charge enough that I can sleep at night and not be bitter about all the work I did. There's a sweet spot between serving the song and doing more than you're being paid to do...I often tend to do more work than I should, but ultimately, it's a business. |
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