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Post by mrholmes on Jan 9, 2016 14:14:38 GMT -6
ITB noise is not a big problem.... I am pretty sure....
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Post by wiz on Jan 9, 2016 15:34:20 GMT -6
You need to know the difference between dBFS, dBm, dBu
You need to know the specs, of your AD DA interface, and more importantly you need to know what those specs mean.
You need to know the specs of your analog gear.
You need to know what 0VU and +4dBu mean and their relationship to each other.
You need to know what the REAL difference between bit depths is. hint, its foot room.. it adds dynamic range, nothing more.
Once you know all that, you need to learn each piece of gears sweet spot, its operating range where it sounds the best..... to you..... for your intended purpose... which might be clarity, and it might be mangling.
Sometimes gear, operates really well, at a level that might not make a lot of sense from a conservative technical standpoint. Eg, all buttons in mode on a 1176, Turning all knobs to 11 on a amplifier...
.....
or running a digital convertor close to clipping.... my least favourite example, and not something I would personally align with, in the modern age, perhaps once, and maybe on a rare individual case today.
That last one doesn't change the technical reasons why you should understand the way digital audio works, or how you should be using a DIFFERENT digital convertor... or make you think thats where you should operate all digital convertors.
I think, if you (we, us) are going to call yourself, a recording engineer... then.. the following war and peace of a post comes under the engineer part 8)
If you don't understand all those things above... you really are a little bit blind.
Doesn't mean you won't, don't or can't make great sounding music... but a little technical understanding goes a long way.
Here is the RME UCX spec
Input level for 0 dBFS @ +4 dBu: +13 dBu
what that means is
for a signal to display 0dBFS (0db FULL SCALE) in your DAW or its Total mix app when the RME is set to +4dBu (it has three settings available ... Lo Gain, +4dBu, and -10dBV which just place internal attenuators in the path) that it will require a level of +13dBu.
so , +13dBu equals 0dBFs
So, if you had a compressor that had a test tone running into the RME, and you adjusted the level coming out of the compressor to hit 0dBFS at those settings, then the compressor would be putting out +13dBu (lets leave impedance out of this )
If you did nothing, but switch the RMEs setting to Lo Gain (which requires +19dBU for dBFS, or to hit 0 in the daw) ....
....... what would your daw meters read now?
If you can't work this out, you need to learn how.
So the compressor is still putting out 13dBu, it hasn't changed, we changed the RME from its internal setting of +4dBu to Lo gain
the DAW meter would now read -6dBFs.
Why? because one setting required, +13dBu for a reading of Zero, and the Lo Gain setting requires +19dBu, the compressor we know is putting out +13dBu.
6dB difference between the RME settings, for full scale.
All the RME is doing, is placing a 6dB attenuator in the path.
The compressor puts out no more or less level.. it remains operating at the level it was.. the DAW displays two different levels, due to how the RME works.
Now, does one sound better on the RME. No. It does not. I owned it, I tested it, it doesn't.
Does that apply for all other digital interfaces, no definitely not. You need to test for yourself.
Now.. remember the compressor, putting out +13dBu?
A generalisation, most gear, is designed to operate best, from a technical stand point, at Line Level.
Line level is generally accepted to be +4dBu. (also often the 0VU point, you know those cool old analog meters?)
So we have our compressor cranked!!!!!!!! We might love it at 13dBu, okay, and we found that if we set the RME UCX to Lo Gain, we now have the headroom to use it. Headroom, remember that term.
Ok, so most gear operates technically best at +4dBu.
So, RME UCX in Lo Gain Mode.. that compressor at +4dBu would read, -15dBFs.
Assuming, the RME operates absolutley and completely in spec and wonderful sounding all the way up to 0dBFs we have 15 dB of headroom.
I am going to define Headroom, as the amount of dB above the point you are operating at till you ADDA shits itself all over the song and sounds like ass, or you don't realise that till later in the process...
So, even if the RME is perfect, we have a lowly 15dB to play with. (Lo Gain needs +19dBu for Full scale, we are putting in +4dBu, 19 minus 4 equals 15)
This is where you combine your artistic and engineer brain to control the situation. You make sure nothing ends up crappy by controlling the levels during tracking.
So lets say you want more headroom, I know I do. thats why I sold it (the RME UCX)
Realistically, you need 6dB above the highest PEAK you are ever going to record, ever.
This will mean you have a safety margin when mongo the drummer comes in with that rimshot to end all rimshots just as you are dozing off.
Also you won't be taxing the ADDA (the power supply in most of these things, aint great and just because it can handle one input and output at a certain level, during spec measurement, don't mean it will do 16 ins and outs now does it? 8) ... )
(Can I just say "Internet Emptor once"? If you like the sound of something as it slowly melts from abuse, I agree with you.. do it... 8) I don't want to have to reply to that 8).....)
If you want more headroom you can do a couple of things.
1. Get a different ADDA that you like the sound of , that has more headroom
2. Turn down the compressor. (but Wiz, it sounds so dope with that chicken head knob pointing at the lava lamp)
3. Put an Attenuator between the compressor and the ADDA.
Wiz Mantra
If most gear operates at +4dBu
If you want 6dBFs of PEAK safety margin when tracking
If you want to be able to turn your piece of gear up to +13dBu or some other number lower, to get its "Sound"
You need headroom. Digital and Analog Headroom.
Headroom Baby... tis all about the headroom.
My Motu specs at
+24dBu on the Line inputs
+20dBU on the Line Outputs.
This means that when my compressor is operating at +4dBU, it has 20dB of Headroom before clipping the AD of the MOTU 16A
So +4dBu coming out of the compressor going into
RME reads -15dBFs in the DAW with RME set to Lo Gain
RME reads -9dBFs in the DAW with RME set to its +4dBu setting
Motu 16a reads -20dBFs
same level... out of compressor
3 different levels in the DAW, in the RME's case the only difference is an internal attenuator.
You get that now right?
...........
(many blank faces around the world looking at screens... LOL... )
This is why an understanding of this stuff is so important.
What we f*%Cking care about, is the sound coming out of the compressor... thats the mojo, thats the juice, thats what its all about...
We don't give a fat rats ass, about whether that signal is captured in the daw at -9, -15 or even -30dBFs in the real world at 24 bit digital audio.
It will matter 9/10s of bugger all how far down the DAW scale its peak really is... really. You know in the real world. If its hitting -6, great, if its hitting -12 great, if tis hitting thouest meters at a divine -18dBfs .. thy be cooleth.
what matters is the sound coming out of the compressor, and enough headroom in your digital system to capture it as best it can without unintended mangling of the system.
Buy yourself a professional interface, get something with enough head room. Learn the terms, learn what it means.
Learn that all things being equal, that recording at 24 bit, you don't have to get as close to zero to get great sound, that in fact you are just reducing your safety margin. Unless you "internet emptor"
Learn the digital teams, quantisation distortion and how it applies to bit depth.
Learn learn learn.
This stuff matters so much
....
...
I need a coffee..
8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by chasmanian on Jan 9, 2016 15:58:11 GMT -6
well, you've got my vote for post of the year wiz. thank you very much for that. you are an excellent teacher.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 9, 2016 16:14:24 GMT -6
The problem there is no relatinship in the dgital world which translates dbu to dbfs... thats the main problem to understand it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 9, 2016 16:57:55 GMT -6
Wiz, now you have to come over to my place and walk me through all that on my gear. I'll buy the wine, and some take out Chinese, or Indian, or macrobiotic organic vegetarian, whatever you like.
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Post by RicFoxx on Jan 9, 2016 17:01:14 GMT -6
Doesn't software compressors like to see -18dbfs??? So tracking at -18dbfs makes sense. I don't mind tracking hotter but I usually clip gain levevels back down...does anyone else do this?
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Post by chasmanian on Jan 9, 2016 17:03:57 GMT -6
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Post by wiz on Jan 9, 2016 17:04:57 GMT -6
Wiz, now you have to come over to my place and walk me through all that on my gear. I'll buy the wine, and some take out Chinese, or Indian, or macrobiotic organic vegetarian, whatever you like. Let me and Jo couch surf in Manhattan, and I will do that and clean your toilet 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 9, 2016 17:20:57 GMT -6
I have one very cozy pull out couch..
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 9, 2016 18:29:30 GMT -6
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Post by chasmanian on Jan 9, 2016 19:38:05 GMT -6
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Post by tasteliketape on Jan 10, 2016 19:54:33 GMT -6
First let me say I'm the low guy on the knowledge ,experience , tech skills on this forum but just from what I've learned on this thread alone just took one of what I thought would be mediocre mix of a live recording I did to an all out rocking SOB just wanted all and I mean all of you guys to know. I've taken something from all post gleamed some from all . Thank you thank you I've got a long way to go but from this forum alone and practice my mixes have become more professional in a very short time thanks to all Sorry can you tell I'm excited lol Sincerely thanks
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Post by chasmanian on Jan 10, 2016 20:56:53 GMT -6
I'm happier than heck for you. being excited is the way to be!!
music is great. it is such a gift. I also am learning alot here. great people at this forum.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 10, 2016 20:58:08 GMT -6
Well, much of this is over my head, but I'll try to work through it until I have my system in order. meanwhile, this helped a bit : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBFS
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 11, 2016 13:35:21 GMT -6
What you never want is the limitations of your monitoring D to A and chain influencing your decisions. My moment of enlightenment came when a friend couldn't figure out how to get the levels up in his 001 rig. When I turned his mixes that were literally peaking at -30 up, they sounded staggeringly great.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jan 11, 2016 15:45:25 GMT -6
My analog console will output +27 dbu into 600 ohms. The BurrBrown EVM4222 ADC is set up to clip at +20 dbu. That way I always have 6 db headroom over the digital zero. The analog electronics in that converter attenuate the signal slightly so that section is also never clipped.
The DAC's, BB 1704 and BB 1794 each have additional analog electronics headroom so any clipping is done by reaching full scale first.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2016 18:39:38 GMT -6
I have the UAD Apollo silver Duo. I use the Dizengoff D4 as my preamp, and can track with the Warm Audio WA76, and EQP-1A (Pultec) if I want, as well as any UAD plug. Does anyone know offhand what level would equal zero on a VU meter using the Apollo?
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 11, 2016 19:40:01 GMT -6
I have the UAD Apollo silver Duo. I use the Dizengoff D4 as my preamp, and can track with the Warm Audio WA76, and EQP-1A (Pultec) if I want, as well as any UAD plug. Does anyone know offhand what level would equal zero on a VU meter using the Apollo? from what I understand, all three of your outboard pieces have very little headroom, so watch out for that. Also, if i'm understanding your question, the Apollo's theoretical 0VU, and best place for average recording levels is @ -18dbu
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2016 22:18:35 GMT -6
Thank Tony, that saves me time, and a headache looking for that info. Now that you mentioned headroom, I do hear some distortion when I push the D4 too hard, so I will try to be more careful in the future. I'll try to track my next session around that level and see how it all goes. Three of my favorite reference albums are Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada", Mark Knopfler's "Sailing to Philadelphia" and Ryan Adam's "Easy Tiger".
If I cut all the tracks at that level, is it possible for me to get the master tracks volume close to the level of those albums with plug-ins that are still clean?
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 11, 2016 22:54:38 GMT -6
I have the UAD Apollo silver Duo. I use the Dizengoff D4 as my preamp, and can track with the Warm Audio WA76, and EQP-1A (Pultec) if I want, as well as any UAD plug. Does anyone know offhand what level would equal zero on a VU meter using the Apollo? Page 26 Manual! Maximum Input Level (+4 dBu): +20 dbu
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2016 23:27:47 GMT -6
Thanks mrholmes. The thing is, those specs didn't matter to me until I began to understand what's needed from all the helpful posts here. I basically understood to stay under -12 on my DAW's meter, which I of course ignored all too often. I'll try to be smarter about the process from now on, and ask for help here when I need it.
I know the cats here won't let me down, or laugh at my questions, though I may cause a chuckle or two now and then.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 12, 2016 0:11:46 GMT -6
Thank Tony, that saves me time, and a headache looking for that info. Now that you mentioned headroom, I do hear some distortion when I push the D4 too hard, so I will try to be more careful in the future. I'll try to track my next session around that level and see how it all goes. Three of my favorite reference albums are Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada", Mark Knopfler's "Sailing to Philadelphia" and Ryan Adam's "Easy Tiger". If I cut all the tracks at that level, is it possible for me to get the master tracks volume close to the level of those albums with plug-ins that are still clean? even if they are low headroom, you can push them into distortion if it sounds good, you'll know when you've gone to far(of course i'm talking about your analog pieces), also keeping some of your tracks out of the red and clean will give you easier sound field positioning and image solity come mix time as they will contrast well to the more fuzzy stuff, think "all things fuzzy, nothings fuzzy", "all things clean, nothings clean", dirt shows up real nice on a pristinely white t shirt, right? 8) btw, use as little plugins as possible, and make sure you dither on bounce.
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Post by Ward on Jan 12, 2016 8:28:45 GMT -6
In the realm of loudness wars, does headroom even matter any more? Believe me, it bothers me to even wonder that, let only type that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 9:11:18 GMT -6
A friend of mine said to me, that he could mix thru the iphone DAC into bad inears, because this is what the customers are consuming, so "why should i bother to use my Crane Song..." - when most clients of him demand a DR of 5, some even want 3(!), which he refuses to produce, no matter who the client is... Bitter sarcasm...
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 12, 2016 9:41:07 GMT -6
To me the light bulb moment of this thread was the sentence by Bob O "converters can sound stressed when pushed to hard." This goes together with many wrongs I did when mixing ITB.
Its not too different vs. mixing hybrid or OTB. A very late light bulb moment....
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