|
|
Post by schmalzy on Dec 21, 2015 13:59:11 GMT -6
Question for you guys since this is a fantastic resource of professionals (like yourselves) and hacks (like me) for all things recording/mixing related. How do I tell an artist to stop making the mix (in my opinion) worse? Here's the background: I've got a couple songs I'm working on - some modern punk stuff (one guitar double-tracked left and right with a gravelly vocal and a steady bass) I feel like the mix is pretty close to where it needs to be. The drummer is insisting, over and over, that I reduce the click in his kick drum. Here's the rub: it's already too low. It's barely snappy. The kick is a balance of thump and attack at this point. Also, the track is 190bpm and has some eighth notes and a few sixteenth notes in the kick drum. Then he referred me back to a record ("I like this sound") in which the kick is super clicky. I'll post the video below I feel like taking even more of the 1.5k through 5K out of that kick is going to just bury it...making it practically non-existent to headphone-users and small-speaker listeners. This all comes after a request to add some thickness and low mids back into the guitar and bass guitar. That frequency range feels pretty muddy to me right now so I'm not sure I could make anyone happy by trying to place the kick in that area as well. The mix feels muddy (I think that's mostly because the guitars and bass have too much in that area) so I don't think adding to the problem is a good solution. Anyway, after all that, I figured I'd let you hear the song in its MixV2 form - they're asking for less click/snap in the kick drum for V3. I'd like you all to know that the MixV1 was less muddy and had more prominent kick and snare - because that's what I'm hearing in the reference. This MixV2 is "mastered in place" (soft clipper and limiter tossed on the 2-buss) for the client but will eventually be mastered by me anyway. My mix: Attachment DeletedTheir reference: The guitars aren't up to the reference wall of distorted guitars...but the band I'm working with wants to hear more rhythm in their guitars so that was never a real concern. Sorry (again) for the long post. Any thoughts from anyone? |
|
|
|
Post by formatcyes on Dec 21, 2015 14:38:56 GMT -6
Did i fire 5 shots or 6 in all the excitement I forgot so go ahead punk change my mix again... Just saying.
|
|
|
|
Post by schmalzy on Dec 21, 2015 14:46:29 GMT -6
Did i fire 5 shots or 6 in all the excitement I forgot so go ahead punk change my mix again... Just saying. I think we're talkin' different kinds of "punk." This isn't the punk of the "Harry Callahan" days. We're talking modern unshaven "Harry Face" punk. That's what I feel like saying: "I WANTED to use this for my portfolio but you're screwin' it up for me!" |
|
|
|
Post by formatcyes on Dec 21, 2015 14:49:20 GMT -6
You are right. So what they want is everything bigger with more space  . If they are paying the bills do it and take your name of the credits. |
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 21, 2015 15:03:08 GMT -6
If it were me, I'd probably do a save as, clear everything out, try a fresh mix from a clean slate and mix it the way you think it should sound, with the reference in mind. See how that compares to what you have now/what they want. Maybe this time you'll hit a homerun and everyone will be happy. If you keep trying to change your mix to fit what they think they want, it'll probably just keep getting the water more dirty. Just an idea, good luck man!
|
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Dec 21, 2015 16:01:54 GMT -6
I personally don't think its too clicky.... and I listened to the reference track as well... its not clicky.
Here is how I handle it...(these sorts of things)
when I am charging money for it.. I give them what they want.
I would always present the alternative , and explain why I think it should be like it is... demo both to them.. and what they decide they like, they like.
A lot of the time, terminology gets in the way.. especially terminology de- jour... e.g. "transients" 8) "warm" "analog"
it might be its too loud for him?
Especially in a DAW, I would have two or three examples of the recall to play them, takes 10 mins, one with the kick dropped a dB, one with it like how you want it, and one with the click taken care of
But, my mind is always on the clients side... give em what they are happy with.
cheers
Wiz
|
|
|
|
Post by schmalzy on Dec 21, 2015 18:09:39 GMT -6
I is how I handle it...(these sorts of things) when I am charging money for it.. I give them what they want. I would always present the alternative , and explain why I think it should be like it is... demo both to them.. and what they decide they like, they like. would have two or three examples of the recall to play them, takes 10 mins, one with the kick dropped a dB, one with it like how you want it, and one with the click taken care of cheers Wiz That's what I had resolved to do. Give them what they want and give them the thing I think is better.. Is this a common thing for you guys? Also: thoughts on the mix? Anything you're hearing that's a big problem for you? |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,918 
|
Post by ericn on Dec 21, 2015 18:26:23 GMT -6
Give them what they want, if you think it sucks and want nothing to do with it have them credit an alias!
|
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Dec 21, 2015 19:34:18 GMT -6
I think the snare sound here is more of a problem than the kick--to me the boxiness of the snare is adding to the "muddiness" as you put it. But if I can be completely honest the performance is no where near as tightly executed as the reference track, and there are many spots where the guitars and drums are unglued. To me THAT more than anything creates a lack of clarity in the mix. My suggestion would be to view this as on the job training, aim to please the band, and move on to your next project.
|
|
|
|
Post by schmalzy on Dec 21, 2015 20:37:24 GMT -6
I think the snare sound here is more of a problem than the kick--to me the boxiness of the snare is adding to the "muddiness" as you put it. But if I can be completely honest the performance is no where near as tightly executed as the reference track, and there are many spots where the guitars and drums are unglued. To me THAT more than anything creates a lack of clarity in the mix. Thanks for the feedback! The performances are all over the place, you're right... ...and that's after an extensive bit of drum editing. I saw them play a couple weeks before and the tempos on these two songs were all over the place in a bad way. We decided to go with a click so they'd at least keep from dragging. Tracking came around and we had one day for both songs. The drums were in front, behind...ugh. I eventually had to turn the drums off and overdub the guitars and bass to the click for some sections. Not ideal. I'll address that snare and see if I can tighten some of the performances more as a favor to those guys. Thanks again for the feedback. Honestly, I dig it. I live in a flyover state and the one studio in the area isn't interested in a dialog. I have to query the internet for opinions. Hopefully you guys will continue to humor me and tell me I'm not very good. Any other thoughts, all? |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Dec 21, 2015 21:13:06 GMT -6
Yeah man...there's kind of a no-win situation here. I've often found that disagreements can take the fun out of this stuff. But hey - you're mixing it, not producing it - I say give them what they want and maybe make a joke out of it..."Is the kick muted? Oh...sorry, couldn't hear it because it didn't have any top " Then let them either see it your way or hang themselves. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Dec 21, 2015 21:14:21 GMT -6
BTW - haven't listened yet, but I actually don't like a lot of click/top (a la CLA) in my kicks...but it's just personal preference.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randge on Dec 21, 2015 23:04:09 GMT -6
I absolutely hate that basketball bouncing 5K click in the modern kick drum sounds. To me, it sounds nothing like a real drummer playing a nice kit well.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Dec 21, 2015 23:30:48 GMT -6
If they are paying you to do this, they are your client. The client is always right, even when they're wrong. Give em what they want. The day I learned this was a beautiful and peaceful day. My relationships with clients grew and deepened, I learned a lot about engineering, and I got along with everyone much better. It's a puzzle, and it's your job to figure out the key that will unlock a great recording / mix.
If you're producing them, try their ideas and tell them gently that it's your call if you feel it doesn't work.
If they are just your friends and you're doing them a favor, tell them you have a great mix engineer who will give them what they want, and point them elsewhere.
Yes, there's a delicate balance between some of these, but the bottom line is it's not YOUR project - it's theirs. If you can't figure out a way give them what they want and still be true to yourself, then politely suggest that they move on. In a nice way of course.
However, I must say that some of my biggest growing times (engineering wise) where with difficult clients like the one(s) you describe. They are OBVIOUSLY hearing something that you are not currently giving them. It may be because of their instruments, their performance, their talent, your mics, your experiential skills, your esthetic vs theirs or whatever - but there's something they are not getting from you. It's our job as engineers to deliver a clients vision - not to make our own record. And hopefully in the process keep things sounding good as well. If you can't strike that balance over hard work and time, then the chemistry just isn't there. No harm, no foul and no use banging your head against a wall if you can't find a way to progress. Tell em you can't continue due to creative differences and your musical concept which obviously isn't THEIR concept.
Good luck with it!
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2015 23:49:44 GMT -6
Part of the game.... especially dealing with bands because you're dealing with several guys wanting their instruments to be the best in the mix.... and so on the circle goes round and round. If you've got it narrowed down to just one saying something you're doing good! You're near the ribbon at the finish line.
So you've got a clicky kick.... you need the kick to be present, not presence i guess, a lot of folks do that with the top end, but you give the kick some meat with Decapitator by turning the Tone down until it starts to bust, then use the mix knob until it starts to seem normal again. Then use transient designer to make it really short with a little attack. That's one way of making the kick thump through the speakers, set the bass and be heard in a dense mix at that tempo.
Maybe group all your sub groups.... bring it all down and just start with the kick and the bass, get it working together and then start pulling up the rest, spilling out sub groups when you need to to make new adjustments. This way you don't have to totally start new, just kinda reworking it.
Just an idea.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randge on Dec 21, 2015 23:49:54 GMT -6
Not all that long ago, I had a client who wanted their record verbed to death. Not like a cool 1960's vibe thing but just aweful and incredibly washy. I was the producer. I gave them my reason why they shouldn't do it and a bit more verb to boot, but couldn't bring myself to ruin 12 mixes I had spend a 3 week time span working on by going as far as they wanted it drowned. In the end, they took the mixes to another ( un-named big name Nashville studio) and they slathered them up with verb and completely unbalanced the instruments to the point that the mixes were all either right or left heavy depending on the song. They did the custom wham bam master job, too. To this day, I laugh when that record comes on the radio as you can't understand any words and it sounds like pure crap thrown down a well. Glad they were able to get it their way, they paid their bill in full here and my name was nowhere near the credits in the end. Win win!
|
|
|
|
Post by schmalzy on Dec 22, 2015 0:28:31 GMT -6
Good thoughts, all!
I work in video in my "regular" life and I've been able to divorce myself from the awfulness that clients can sometimes inflict. In this situation, though, I guess I'm just having a tough time saying "they're your songs - screw 'em up how you want."
A few reasons, I think:
1) These guys are friends of mine. They didn't pay me much and I didn't ask them to. I want them to be excited about the recordings now and I want them to be excited about it later. In the future, they're going to listen to their previous recordings (complete with non-existant kick drums from guys who just said "sure thing, boss, I'll take out everything over 500hz" and other not-so-super great decisions) and be annoyed that they sound like they do. I'm certainly not the best possible person to record/mix their stuff and if they were super serious about having a fantastic-sounding couple of songs they'd have gone to someone else - but I also don't want the guys to be as disappointed in the work we did together as I think they will be of their previous recordings.
2) I'd love the credit for the recordings. My portfolio is pretty light, this band has a lot of friends, and this band has spent a fair amount in the past on some pretty bad-sounding recordings. Being able to get them saying "this guy really made us sound the best we've ever sounded on a record" (or something along those lines) then be able to show the songs proving it would be beneficial to my studio. All my work has come from referrals and this is finally a band who's actually making noise (pun 100% intended!) in their musical community.
3) Artwork's already done. I'm in the credits. Bands are going to think "what a weird choice on that kick drum sound...no snap to cut through..." and I kind of need the word of mouth to keep being good rather than have a mixture of good and bad.
So all I need to do is control their minds from a couple hundred miles away...
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Dec 22, 2015 1:42:35 GMT -6
I don't think as many people will think that about the kick as you think they will |
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Dec 22, 2015 12:06:13 GMT -6
I do what people ask me, even if I think it sucks. I tell them precisely why I disagree and tell them if they change their mind again it will cost them. If they come back and say now they don't like what they originally told me me to do despite my disagreement, I turn the meter back on and charge them. Some people will drive you crazy with their indecision. They should pay for it. We're not here to waste our time.
|
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Dec 22, 2015 12:54:34 GMT -6
Is there an equivalent in the pro-recording industry to the 'Alan Smithee' pseudonym of the film industry? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_SmitheeIf you want to disown it just say it was mixed by 'Jack Meoff' or something similar. |
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 22, 2015 13:18:06 GMT -6
I'm going to disagree with pretty much everyone here.
I think you need to disregard the comments about taking the click out out the kick or whatever. They gave you a reference track that they want to sound like. Use that as a guide rather than the description they are poorly articulating. Maybe get a couple more reference tracks and base your decisions on that.
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Dec 22, 2015 13:27:35 GMT -6
Ok, here's my thoughts.
You have too much mud. There is something droning in the low mids on your mix that isn't in the reference mix.
Find that area in the kick (probably around 100-180hz) and cut fairly narrow. Now do the same with the bass.
You'll find that stuff starts gelling better.
But honestly, the sloppy off time drumming is making it super hard for me to even listen..
|
|
|
|
Post by schmalzy on Dec 22, 2015 14:27:19 GMT -6
Ok, here's my thoughts. You have too much mud. There is something droning in the low mids on your mix that isn't in the reference mix. Find that area in the kick (probably around 100-180hz) and cut fairly narrow. Now do the same with the bass. You'll find that stuff starts gelling better. But honestly, the sloppy off time drumming is making it super hard for me to even listen.. Hey, Svart! Thanks for the listen! I've been asked to add that stuff back in to the bass and guitars. The Mix V1 had less of that. I could take a bit of it out of the kick, though, and see if they'll let that fly. Thanks for the heads-up! The comments about the sloppy drumming just made me think that perhaps he's just trying to bury the kick so you can't tell how sloppy it is. Honestly, the drums are edited a lot to get them where they are. I'm slip editing in Reaper - I'm not a fan of time-stretching - so I think this is about as good as it's going to get before we start hearing some (more) odd cymbal and snare decays. |
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 22, 2015 14:42:02 GMT -6
I guess with these tracks, it's probably a lost cause. Even if you get the sonics right, the performance is just too flawed. Get them as happy as possible and move on to the next project.
|
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Dec 22, 2015 16:11:21 GMT -6
I guess with these tracks, it's probably a lost cause. Even if you get the sonics right, the performance is just too flawed. Get them as happy as possible and move on to the next project. I agree. If you're looking to use this track and band relationship to build more business I'd bend over backwards and make them as happy as possible. The good word of mouth about your tireless efforts may serve you well in the community. But this poorly performed music will not likely attract much praise or attention. This is why it's so true that it all begins (or sadly ends) with the drummer and his or her ability play solid time. Everything else becomes moot if the time is skating all over the place. |
|
. If they are paying the bills do it and take your name of the credits.
