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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 6, 2015 12:33:24 GMT -6
Billy Gates and Stevie Job's operating systems are riff with errors and pitfalls.
The difference is you pay a premium to be worked over by Stevie Job's products.
"Please, sir, may I have another" ~ A Few Good Men
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 6, 2015 12:38:22 GMT -6
I just find OSX to be so much more logical than Windows...it just works. That absolutely wasn't my experience with Windows.
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Post by donr on Dec 6, 2015 12:43:13 GMT -6
With Macs there's some websites you have to use Firefox or Chrome on instead of Safari. Banks can be typical. Southwest.com is another one. I'm updating my wife's Macbook Air from Mountain Lion now. We're avoiding El Capitan, I'm downloading a copy of the Yosemite installer from my laptop, since I got it from the app store to begin with, and you can re-download it.
Apple computers are mainly the Devil I know.
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Post by category5 on Dec 6, 2015 12:44:32 GMT -6
I've been on both extensively, but once i made the switch to mac, i'll probably never go back, how anyone could say a windows operating system is better than mac os...? is beyond jaw dropping to me, no friggin way in a million years is a windows OS even remotely close to the mac OS, NO WAY! and if you dare go on the webs with your windows machine your braver than I.... good luck Charlie Sheen. I have to agree. I used to have a 6 page document of tweaks and supplemental installs that I had to do to get a windows system working perfectly for audio (and even then...). Forget about the years prior where you had to do a ballet installation of all cards, in order to get the IRQ conflicts sorted. Windows XP and after that Windows 7 finally matured and made professional DAWs in a PC environment viable, but you had better know a thing or two about computers to keep them purring. When my wife basically forced me to try a Mac again (after dumping it years prior for power/$ reasons) I was blown away that my system was up, running and recording 16 channels of audio in about 15 minutes, with nary a single tweak. Throughout each OS update the only issues I've ever had have been instantly resolved by installing a new software version for my audio hardware, or DAW update (that were available prior to me needing them BTW). I've read about complaints but I guess I've been lucky, or just keep my systems cleaner than most because I've had very few issues that come to mind. There will always be hiccups when upgrading major system software, but technology evolves and software must also to take advantage of it. If it didn't, we'd all be using Echo layla cards on our Windows 95 machines, crossing our fingers every time we hit record. I still can't believe the power and stability of my Macbook Pro. It's just care free compared to all of my PC experience. That said, I know a lot of guys doing very well in a PC environment, but none so brave as to move into the Windows 10 realm yet. If you want to compare and complain about the stability of Apple's latest OS, shouldn't the direct comparison be MS's latest too? I know Windows 10 has its merits, but I don't think it's anywhere close to a care-free professional audio platform yet is it? Maybe I'm wrong. I haven't gone there, and have no plans to on my short list. At the end of the day it boils down to what you like. If you get the job done, the tools become irrelevant. As for me, I'm with Tony. OSX will have to "feck" up pretty badly to make me tread Windows again for professional use. I still have a couple of modern, fast PCs. I don't use them for much though. |
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 6, 2015 12:57:32 GMT -6
I use my core 7 for anything video. I don't use it for audio unless it's attached to a video project. I use an old Pentium 4 for CD prep only because it works. Otherwise, PC's and audio are an oil and water mix here. If you can't hear the difference, consider yourself blessed and perfectly suited for modern pop productions. Just don't ask me to listen to the end product.
I admit I'm a cheap bastard. I prefer to build a PC, a rifle, a guitar, a console, a microphone, a studio etc, rather than hand my hard earned money over to those corporate greedheads. Walking into an Apple store, besides all the nerdy, whimpy "pajama boys" drooling over the counters, I get a price shock that makes me run, not walk out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2015 13:01:33 GMT -6
I use my core 7 for anything video. I don't use it for audio unless it's attached to a video project. I use an old Pentium 4 for CD prep only because it works. Otherwise, PC's and audio are an oil and water mix here. If you can't hear the difference, consider yourself blessed and perfectly suited for modern pop productions. Just don't ask me to listen to the end product. I admit I'm a cheap bastard. I prefer to build a PC, a rifle, a guitar, a console, a microphone, a studio etc, rather than hand my hard earned money over to those corporate greedheads. Walking into an Apple store, besides all the nerdy, whimpy "pajama boys" drooling over the counters, I get a price shock that makes me run, not walk out. what do you record to? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 6, 2015 13:45:38 GMT -6
I use my core 7 for anything video. I don't use it for audio unless it's attached to a video project. I use an old Pentium 4 for CD prep only because it works. Otherwise, PC's and audio are an oil and water mix here. If you can't hear the difference, consider yourself blessed and perfectly suited for modern pop productions. Just don't ask me to listen to the end product. I admit I'm a cheap bastard. I prefer to build a PC, a rifle, a guitar, a console, a microphone, a studio etc, rather than hand my hard earned money over to those corporate greedheads. Walking into an Apple store, besides all the nerdy, whimpy "pajama boys" drooling over the counters, I get a price shock that makes me run, not walk out. what do you record to? he uses a heavily modded Alesis HDXR 24, it sounds ridiculously good, All of Jims gear sounds really good, he had Jim Williams mod all of it! haha, when i dump straight out of PT's onto console channel strips, there is a significant sonic improvement vs any ITB processing and then dumping it out, so i get what he's saying. That said, i don't agree with Jim on the mac thing, i think they have stuff that works really, really well, with feature sets that really attract folks for good reason, i'm not one of those people who need the latest and greatest every time something comes out, i don't own an ipad, and i had an android phone for years before i broke it, and now I have a lowly Iphone 5s for a few years, it's an amazing tool, i can use it to control my daw when tracking, it works every bit as well as an Iphone 6 and 7 and probably 8 haha |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2015 13:49:49 GMT -6
Ah okay, very cool! I hear you, I never touch my OS on my mac, once something is stable I like to keep it that way, I had to update to Cubase 8 but now that it's relatively stable I'm not touching it. As long as things work, although Cubase does run a lot better on PC than Mac in my experience.
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Post by M57 on Dec 6, 2015 14:06:31 GMT -6
I admit I'm a cheap bastard. I prefer to build a PC, a rifle, a guitar, a console, a microphone, a studio etc, rather than hand my hard earned money over to those corporate greedheads. Walking into an Apple store, besides all the nerdy, whimpy "pajama boys" drooling over the counters, I get a price shock that makes me run, not walk out. Yeah - the upfront cost is scary. But on the software end, things become dirt cheap. Logic X at $200 once and done. Free remote app for your iOs device. Even if that doesn't even the score, ask yourself what's the value of worry-free operation? I.e., what is your time (and aggravation) worth? |
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Post by popmann on Dec 7, 2015 21:17:19 GMT -6
You know, I posted this as a side note in my thread about Cubase versions and their windowing....but, it's more apropos here:
What on earth has Apple been doing with their OS that breaks backwards compatibility with FULLY intel and FULLY 64bit audio code and drivers? OSX.7/8 were fully 64bit and fully intel codebase....and yet, there's some dividing line that makes no sense to me--on the hardware side, I'm looking for an inexpensive SPDIF IO box and everything seems to either work with 10.6/7/8....OR....10.9+. The Cubase REQUIRES 10.10? Really? This is what I was warning about the paradigm of "free thus expected OS upgrades"--but, even I wouldn't have guessed it would move to being this bad this quickly.
Every single one of those pieces of hardware AND software run on Windows7 64bit. Not to mention that extreme level of backwards compatibility Microsoft carried with 32bit WOW emulation....I've said for a long time as a user of both--Windows is by FAR the superior OS AND that's often functionally irrelevant for a given individual's use case. When I built this current Win7 box it was for similar reasons--they were fully 64bit and Apple was struggling with sort of half 64bit and half Motorola code and PPC emulation--where I paid for no upgrade other than Cubase 6 (and that wasn't a requirement-as 4 ran fine) on Windows, I counted something along the lines of $800 in paid upgrades I was going to have to do and one VI I was going to LOSE going with OSX.5/6 which was current then.
I dunno. I made the decision some time ago to use whatever Turing Machine happened to be around for recording as I transitioned back to just doing my own work....but, I LIKE Apples. I grew up with Macs. But, for audio they're such a crazy moving target. They've never had the backwards compatibility of Windows....but, in a panned back timeframe, that's not all bad....but, when a 3 year old laptop is a minefield to get to run current software or peripherals to use in the studio as more than the occasional "software instrument host"....
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 7, 2015 21:51:39 GMT -6
You know, I posted this as a side note in my thread about Cubase versions and their windowing....but, it's more apropos here: What on earth has Apple been doing with their OS that breaks backwards compatibility with FULLY intel and FULLY 64bit audio code and drivers? OSX.7/8 were fully 64bit and fully intel codebase....and yet, there's some dividing line that makes no sense to me--on the hardware side, I'm looking for an inexpensive SPDIF IO box and everything seems to either work with 10.6/7/8....OR....10.9+. The Cubase REQUIRES 10.10? Really? This is what I was warning about the paradigm of "free thus expected OS upgrades"--but, even I wouldn't have guessed it would move to being this bad this quickly. Every single one of those pieces of hardware AND software run on Windows7 64bit. Not to mention that extreme level of backwards compatibility Microsoft carried with 32bit WOW emulation....I've said for a long time as a user of both--Windows is by FAR the superior OS AND that's often functionally irrelevant for a given individual's use case. When I built this current Win7 box it was for similar reasons--they were fully 64bit and Apple was struggling with sort of half 64bit and half Motorola code and PPC emulation--where I paid for no upgrade other than Cubase 6 (and that wasn't a requirement-as 4 ran fine) on Windows, I counted something along the lines of $800 in paid upgrades I was going to have to do and one VI I was going to LOSE going with OSX.5/6 which was current then. I dunno. I made the decision some time ago to use whatever Turing Machine happened to be around for recording as I transitioned back to just doing my own work....but, I LIKE Apples. I grew up with Macs. But, for audio they're such a crazy moving target. They've never had the backwards compatibility of Windows....but, in a panned back timeframe, that's not all bad....but, when a 3 year old laptop is a minefield to get to run current software or peripherals to use in the studio as more than the occasional "software instrument host".... I hear ya, but to be the devil's advocate, I'd argue that a laptop is not a serious recording computer, a mac pro is. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 7, 2015 22:49:39 GMT -6
I'm told Apple is a decade behind Microsoft in security and have been locking down vulnerable parts of the OS which breaks installers and prevents some software functions from working properly. It's no different than Microsoft no longer allowing writing to preference files in the application folders.
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Post by popmann on Dec 7, 2015 23:18:30 GMT -6
No one ever accused me of doing serious recordings.  But, my point (and the thread) was the OS. NOTHING about that equation changes if I have a new $4k Trashcan.... It's not a (computer) hardware issue. It's not a horsepower issue--I can run my last 88.2 mix and call up a VI and play along and not see 60% CPU on the Air, which was literally bought as a websurfing box to start with. It's where the OS has gone since Jobs died in terms of what an operating system actually DOES--make a compatible host/translator for third party peripheral hardware and software. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 7, 2015 23:31:37 GMT -6
Here's what i believe, that you and Bob and probably 50 others on the forum know way more about all the OS stuff than i ever will, but what i do know is that i never have a single issue with my 2009 Nahalem mac pro, it absolutely crushes anything i can throw at it, i can load 32 channels with linear phase eq plugs on every track, and it doesn't even hit 25% cpu load, and when it comes to everything else i do on it, from streaming Netflix, itunes radio, porn... eh, i mean porridge recipe net searches  , it just kicks ass and is so unbelievably simple to use and stable, i totally love it! I could never say that about my old pcs, i liked them ok, but was never nearly as impressed as I am with this thing, the peace of mind and confidence is worth the extra cost to me. |
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Post by schmalzy on Dec 8, 2015 15:40:23 GMT -6
I wasn't a fan of computers. Unfortunately, much of my life has been spent on computers because of my career (video production and audio for post-production) and hopefully future career (audio production).
Video is SUPER processor and resource hungry. I worked in video on a PC for a period of time. In 2009 I made a switch to a different company. They only used Mac.
The neural pathways opened up when I was forced to switch to (and learn from the ground up) Mac and their OS. It thinks like I do. I have a thing to do. I need to do it. Did you think of the thing you need to do? Great! Execute it in the most efficient way possible. A Mac does it the same way my brain wants to do it.
...and that doesn't speak to the machine's MILES BETTER performance. The PC was a custom-built video editing monster. The Mac was an off the shelf Mac Pro. The Mac Pro, using similar drives and inferior software, was better in every single way.
Now, not all brains are wired like mine, I don't pretend there's only one way to think through stuff, and the companies haven't continued in identically the same path since 2009. But the Mac was just...better. I still remember how to use a PC. I had to track a band on a new PC tower running the same software I currently run on my 2012 MacBook. Mind-meltingly awful. My brains didn't like the ways I had to work and go back-and-forth between programs, etc. The Mac has always just been easy-to-navigate and use. It frees my brain up to concentrate on creative stuff rather than negotiating with the OS.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 8, 2015 18:38:54 GMT -6
I seriously doubt that Apple is doing anything at this point that Jobs hadn't set in motion. Everything "new" has usually been in the works for five years or more.
Different generation CPU chips can have significantly different floating point calculation/clock cycle specs. Cores and clock speed are practically meaningless for audio. Apples often get compared to oranges because the floating point spec isn't given often for fear of people abandoning CPUs too soon.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 9, 2015 7:46:43 GMT -6
that was a really excellent pun
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 9, 2015 8:12:14 GMT -6
Agreed, very good wordplay.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 9, 2015 9:43:28 GMT -6
I wasn't thinking of it that way.
By the way, BOTH Apple and Mickey$oft are scum in my book because of their promotion of "content" and application looting with a wink and a nod over the past three decades. They could have easily provided OS level copy protection that wouldn't be at all invasive but instead we have been stuck with highly invasive hacks.
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Post by M57 on Dec 9, 2015 9:59:18 GMT -6
I wasn't thinking of it that way. By the way, BOTH Apple and Mickey$oft are scum in my book because of their promotion of "content" and application looting with a wink and a nod over the past three decades. They could have easily provided OS level copy protection that wouldn't be at all invasive but instead we have been stuck with highly invasive hacks. I always characterize my switch from PC to Mac as moving to the 'other' dark side. |
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Post by carymiller on Dec 9, 2015 12:21:16 GMT -6
I started out in grad school on the first Macs and have used them throughout my career in advertising and production. Lately Apple has become focused on trying to make me purchase more things and fight through work arounds and updates that they are no longer a company that makes my life as a professional easier, with professional tools, but just another platform trying to sell me more stuff I don't need. If a better company came along I would leave Apple in a minute. I've already migrated back to PC. But then again I started there, with Cubase 4 back in 2004 with my very first personal rig. To be honest, I'm in the small minority whom has never really loved being on a Mac. Basic Points:Firstly Apple has had some serious child labor issues over the past decade. On a personal level, that has always bothered me. Second, the premium you pay for a machine that's almost impossible to physically upgrade yourself has never appealed me. Third, I'm not paranoid of viruses as I use a combination of software and system restore points to ensure my system's don't fail. Economics and price Vs. performance:It's simply always going to be cheaper to build cutting edge workstations on a PC platform. Though it took me a year longer than I would have liked to upgrade to an X99 platform. The computer I'm writing from this minute is a beast of a machine. I'm using a six core i7 3.3GHz Haswell E 5820k CPU...overclocking each of it's six cores independently, for a rock-stable mean average aggregate of 4.5GHz. 64GB of 2800MHz DDR4 ram clocked to 2328.5MHz rounds things out with incredible latencies at a very specific sweet spot without having to overspend on the newest ram. After doing a ton of research for months, I concluded that eight core CPU's wouldn't actually help with speed and performance in Pro Tools (if I was a film editor, or working on 3D graphics this would be a different story.) However the hyperthreading count with the i7 5820k is hitting the peak of what Pro Tools can currently utilize at it's highest rendering and playback speeds. So the money was better spent on a 64GB ram kit. I was torn between the much more popularized 2666MHz kits Vs. 2800MHz which gets a bit of a bad rep due to most Motherboards not having any overclocking options for 2800MHz, but the ASUS X99 Pro 3.1 USB can handle 2800MHz O.C. (I'm going to do a thread sooner rather than later on this build in depth so bear with me for now.) The idea was to look for the best latency specs under $600 for ram, and then to SLIGHTLY overclock it...so that timings remained tight with a bit better performance. The performance gains turn out to be better this way rather than pushing the ram to it's full 2800MHz peaks, or beyond. Also it's hard to overclock 64GB's of ram beyond their capacity safely, no matter what motherboard you use. Apple would NEVER let me configure something like this in a million years, and it shows. Booting next to my girlfriends iMac with a 3.3GHz chip is night and day. Speed and performance are inherently better in every respect. Also, because the i7 5830k generates far less heat than the more expensive 3.5GHz i7 5930k...you can achieve higher overclocking speeds with greater stability if you're willing to build a machine with higher end liquid or air cooling. Meaning in this case...the "ess powerful and expensive" chip will outperform it's more expensive counterpart, with a longer lifespan since it's easier to keep cool. Also upgrades for Apple products are costly when possible, and void your warranties if you attempt them yourself. The only thing out of my budget range was greater system storage capacity. I have two 500GB Samsung 850 EVO SSD's, which were cheap, and good enough for now...but by this time next year I'll be replacing them with two 2TB 850 EVO's (Which overall, are better buys than the 850 PRO SDD's in that storage bracket.) And hopefully, I'll also be able to install one or two 950 Pro M.2 SSD's in the motherboard itself around that time (I'm waiting for at least 1TB drives to be released before I go there.) Getting to a point where internal storage will never be an issue was important to me. As I want this workstation to last between six to eight years with heavy to moderate use. But since my budget simply wouldn't allow for more storage than what I bought at the time, I needed a system where upgrading hard drives would be simple and painless. An iMac for example can be infamous in this regard, especially the 21" screen models which require technicians, or special tools and work experience to upgrade safely due to the high probability of possibly damaging your screen. Macs are just terribly congested internally these days, and the lack of space and airflow, abandoned for a smaller, more portable device has drawbacks people don't address enough. Heat for one can damage electronics overtime. Sure your system will run for years if you maintain it, but as electronics degrade due to heat, they will inevitably slow down somewhat. My new rig has a big silent workstation case, but the CPU is always less than 40 degrees even when overclocked. It's much quieter than both Mac's in the house since I replaced all the fans with Noctuas, and it's power consumption and heat levels are just far safer for longer life with high performance. Conclusion:Without getting into a rant about why I'm avoiding Pro Tools HD in favor of a regular Pro Tools system...there were a lot of reasons I wanted to make this rig a big, silent, modular PC. I just don't feel that the MAC PRO offered much by comparison in terms of price Vs. Performance since I made my machine sub $2,400, waiting for Black Friday/Cyber Monday. Hope this helps. |
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, it just kicks ass and is so unbelievably simple to use and stable, i totally love it! I could never say that about my old pcs, i liked them ok, but was never nearly as impressed as I am with this thing, the peace of mind and confidence is worth the extra cost to me.
