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Post by svart on Dec 1, 2015 15:31:38 GMT -6
I'm such an odd person out. I really hate that old, dingy, antique sound, with everything dark and muddy, that everyone but me seems to love. I like everything surreal and in my face, where everything is clear and powerful. I may not like everything that is produced, but there are plenty of indie bands out there with modern production that sound great. I haven't listened to the radio in years, I just find my bands locally or I just ask what the artists I record are listening to. You can find all kinds of great things that way, by asking other artists.
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Post by joseph on Dec 1, 2015 15:49:38 GMT -6
Hey man, I think you should do what you like!
Would love to hear some examples of what you're talking about.
Some of the best recordings I've heard are pristine digital, but of a great orchestra and hall.
Biggest problem today is people doing things as matter of course, to sound like other peoples records or a bad pastiche of old record sounds, like way over-dampened snares for instance.
I do like some compression sometimes, just not that phasey room smash sound with distorted vocals on every damn song.
Depends on the application.
You ever listen to the Breeders' Title TK? That to me is very hifi capture for the most part, forward production with bits of lofi color too in the vocals for example, and intense drums. Not really like an older Albini record at all in terms of soundstage.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 1, 2015 17:28:13 GMT -6
I agree that radio has been inundated with posers due to focus group programming. Adele has just demonstrated that performance can trump everything else.
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Post by mobeach on Dec 1, 2015 17:33:27 GMT -6
3.38 Million hard copies sold in the first week.
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Post by formatcyes on Dec 1, 2015 17:35:44 GMT -6
I'm such an odd person out. I really hate that old, dingy, antique sound, with everything dark and muddy, that everyone but me seems to love. I like everything surreal and in my face, where everything is clear and powerful. I may not like everything that is produced, but there are plenty of indie bands out there with modern production that sound great. I haven't listened to the radio in years, I just find my bands locally or I just ask what the artists I record are listening to. You can find all kinds of great things that way, by asking other artists. I love modern recordings to but I hate it crushed I cannot listen to squashed music for very long even a low volume it hurts my ears. Modern unsmashed music is the go.
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Post by noah shain on Dec 1, 2015 18:31:57 GMT -6
The elephant in the room: Modern music that almost nobody considers worth buying... I think people today ought to be looking really hard at arranging and counterpoint. When you get that right, you don't need tons of signal processing. That's a solid point Mr O. No doubt about it. As a guy who scratched and clawed through a sea of music biz hopefuls to eke out a living doing the thing that I love to do, I'm gonna keep doing what gets me paid and trying to do it well. When I produce AND mix, it doesn't go down the same. I get to make the record I deem appropriate. Still use a lot of compressors and a lot of compression and eq but it's way more about style then it is about minimizing dynamic range. On my productions I'll often leave 6-8 db RMS of difference between low level sections and loud sections. The mastering guy will usually cut that to 1 or maybe 2 db. Out of my hands usually. Though I've had control over mastering on a few projects that we decided to compress a little more gently. If you watch a modern pop record (with a full orchestration...drums, bass, Gtr, synth, stacked vocals) on the RMS meters you are not gonna see a whole lot of dynamic range except in broken down sections. Point is, we as working pros don't have a lot of room to play with volume shifts. We gotta create contrast other ways. Incidentally, I listened to the Temptations "can't get next to you" a few days ago to reference the BG vox in the chorus. Man...almost every element in that song has a severely limited dynamic range. Distorted and filtered and dynamics limited by SOMETHING. Maybe not compressors but something was limiting the dynamic range. At the end of the day, what's the difference, volume wise, between a compressor and a finger on a fader or the limiting of an overdriven amp stage or 2...or 3 or 4 or 5? Seems like the trend ain't new. It's just done differently now. But dang diggity if it ain't a STUNNING orchestration. Listening with my producer ears on I was blown away. Totally bizarre and genius. The biggest difference to my ears is that bottom end now is HUGE...which I like. Makes the meters behave TOTALLY differently.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 1, 2015 18:41:19 GMT -6
Nice post Noah I tend to agree.
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Post by noah shain on Dec 1, 2015 18:57:10 GMT -6
I was just thinking she would be a tough one to record with how dynamic she is...and surprising it would be a 6176 considering the relatively low headroom. You know JK, sometimes that low headroom can help a lot with a dynamic source. When the thd starts to increase things can sometimes seem MORE clean or closer or more real/up front/in your face. That's a big part of why we love the gear we love. Pushing stuff past spec sometimes sounds "better" but isn't perceived as "distorted". Just ask Jeff Steiger ;-) CAPI distortion is just about as great a sound as I've ever gotten out of any piece of gear!!! And it can still sound super "clean"!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 1, 2015 19:27:28 GMT -6
"Can't get next to you" has well controlled dynamics but with fader moves and very little limiting. The vocals were fader moves to tape while looking the singer in the eye and breathing along with them. I did track with parallel compression sometimes. (After the fact fader moves or compression was never as effective.) The singers were also two to five feet from the mike so movement wasn't getting in the way of dynamics. The rhythm section was recorded live with only the drummers wearing phones. This forced the proper dynamics to come out of their fingers. I don't remember there being a lot of distortion so that may have happened in CD mastering.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 1, 2015 19:33:09 GMT -6
I agree that radio has been inundated with posers due to focus group programming. Adele has just demonstrated that performance can trump everything else. It takes me back to one of the early years of Idol, there was a kid who was very Harry Conick like and a Girl who was very Bette Miller like and Simon said He couldn't figure out how they fit into POP Music! Funny how Both Have had more U.S. Sales than Mr Cowell!
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Post by popmann on Dec 1, 2015 19:52:45 GMT -6
I was going to point out that I've never heard an Adele vocal that wasn't squarewave clipped....so while the "headroom issues" of the 610 are kinda a Babel point on the internet--it's literally the opposite of what you need to achieve THAT sound. This is more apparent hearing the mix dynamics....the vinyl is DR11 and it's more obvious how much they've clipped her vocals before mastering pushes all the tits to the glass at DR6.
As to Svart's "misleading advice" commentary--I'd point out that subjective aside, that's why I post my personal work. Not for "look how awesome a singer I am" (ha)....but, simply put for a context to put my opinions/experience into....it's a very real discrepancy on either side--the very fact that anyone would hold Adele recordings of ANYTHING up as a gold standard says I don't really care what their opinions on preamps or mics or whatever is....they're really kind of sadly poor recording, IMO. I like her new album a lot--respect the voice she REbuilt post surgery, but there's a tune on there that's just "piano" and vocal....that I can't even tell if it's a horrible sample, a seriously manipulated upright, or a mic'd up CP80!!....that's a bad recording in terms of fidelity if the piano player can't tell what that fucking "piano like instrument" is solo'd.
I would also like to point out that technically you can't really measure compression "amount" by the gain reduction applied. At the 6db of gain reduction, unless you're using a lookahead fast limiter, you're likely just shaping the attack transient--not really reducing dynamics range. In fact, with a slow enough attack, that could be INCREASING dynamic range. very regularly see 15-20db of GR on a vocal compressor....but, there's nothing impure about the sound--it's all set to effectively be a fast fader ride--you never hear it grab or pump. It's just pushing up the low level stuff so it sits in the mix well. Meanwhile, I can see 6db on an 1176 and HEAR compression--why I hate those things. And why people who WANT that modern "compressor pumping" sound love them.
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Post by mobeach on Dec 1, 2015 20:08:40 GMT -6
I would like to see Adele do an album using the same studio gear and production The Beatles used for their first album. I bet she would pull it off, most today wouldn't.
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Post by noah shain on Dec 1, 2015 20:54:14 GMT -6
"Can't get next to you" has well controlled dynamics but with fader moves and very little limiting. The vocals were fader moves to tape while looking the singer in the eye and breathing along with them. I did track with parallel compression sometimes. (After the fact fader moves or compression was never as effective.) The singers were also two to five feet from the mike so movement wasn't getting in the way of dynamics. The rhythm section was recorded live with only the drummers wearing phones. This forced the proper dynamics to come out of their fingers. I don't remember there being a lot of distortion so that may have happened in CD mastering. That is just sexy as all hell! So good... Lots of distortion on the version I was listening to. As I was listening i perceived some stuff as distorted and some stuff as not so much. Could very well have been a transfer or re-master issue. Not sure WHAT version it was.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 1, 2015 20:59:56 GMT -6
The elephant in the room: Modern music that almost nobody considers worth buying... I think people today ought to be looking really hard at arranging and counterpoint. When you get that right, you don't need tons of signal processing. On this topic, there was an article in The New York Times the other day on how industry people were dumbfounded about Adele's new album sales records, and lots of 30-40 year old demographic buyers for first time in 5 years. I thought this was very funny.. I'm not a fan of this genre but GEE turns out when you have a singer with talent people actually want to buy her records, unlike with manufactured garbage pop that constitutes 99% of youtube/streaming/radio these days. Turns out people have taste enough to know an inferior product. That said, there is quite a bit of indie music worth buying and lots of hipster vinyl collectors and HDtracks weirdos who do seem to care, whatever one thinks of them. Personally I hate the sound of most records today, especially that bottom and sample heavy, distortion-limited sound that predominates in many rock and pop genres with little musical development per song either. Just lazy production, very boring at this point to put decapitator and other saturation plugs on everything and boost to death. Hate that shit I think Adele is kind've an anomaly. Just a cultural perfect storm. There are plenty of great artists that didn't sell much at all. Jason Isbell, Stapleton (still is barely gold I think), Gregory Porter, etc. of course none of these guys were pop. I guess what I'm saying is that there has to be other major reasons other than just "present a talented artist." I think some of it had to do with Adele not offering her album via streaming. People only had one way to get it.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 2, 2015 2:31:48 GMT -6
I hadn't listened to the actual track except on my macbook speakers, but I noticed earlier today that I heard the song in the gym, then heard a girl singing it on the way out of the gym with her headphones, then when I got out of my car at the grocery store a girl was whaling to it inside her car, so, I listened to it on my Ultrasones and that is a really good track. Sopping wet, definitely gated verbs going on in those verses which sounds like a delay gets fed and snuck in on the second verse out. Not only on the vocals but all the pads are soaked in it too, but it doesn't cloud up. Keys sound really good, soft but defined. Her vocal... yeah they are using a lot of different treatment in different spots all through that song. It kind of sounds like how I do my vocals almost, where they have mults, all of them having compression but a couple of others feed into another compressor to lock it down. Seems like they want your attention on the start of the verses so they don't hit the second stage of compression right away, and they are putting the hammer down 2 bars into the verse to tie it in with the chorus so it's not like she's massive in the verse, but tightens in the chorus, it'd be too much of a dramatic change, really creative there. Sounds like they have the first compressor working fast so you can get all the little things she's doing between phrases and also to get the throat blast pumping, but when they hit the second stage of compression sounds like they've got a really slow release and a slow attack so it just sits down and stays somewhat natural.
That's just a good song though, the mix is excellent but the song is really really good. That one will be in the record books for sure.
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Post by mobeach on Dec 2, 2015 5:47:04 GMT -6
On this topic, there was an article in The New York Times the other day on how industry people were dumbfounded about Adele's new album sales records, and lots of 30-40 year old demographic buyers for first time in 5 years. I thought this was very funny.. I'm not a fan of this genre but GEE turns out when you have a singer with talent people actually want to buy her records, unlike with manufactured garbage pop that constitutes 99% of youtube/streaming/radio these days. Turns out people have taste enough to know an inferior product. That said, there is quite a bit of indie music worth buying and lots of hipster vinyl collectors and HDtracks weirdos who do seem to care, whatever one thinks of them. Personally I hate the sound of most records today, especially that bottom and sample heavy, distortion-limited sound that predominates in many rock and pop genres with little musical development per song either. Just lazy production, very boring at this point to put decapitator and other saturation plugs on everything and boost to death. Hate that shit I think some of it had to do with Adele not offering her album via streaming. People only had one way to get it. I mentioned that some time ago, but not all artists have that option? If all artists can refuse to stream, they should.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 2, 2015 16:21:22 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 2, 2015 18:46:30 GMT -6
Today I overheard somebody nail Adels relationship to the world "Adel is the Oprah of the music world" It fits everybody can relate some how to this mega rich woman.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 2, 2015 23:14:26 GMT -6
It passes the Motown "sing along" test. A huge percentage of contemporary vocal performances would never had been allowed by a Motown producer. Why on Earth would anybody buy a recording they wouldn't want to hear over and over?
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 3, 2015 9:15:15 GMT -6
you guys can have Adele, i'll take Joss no doubt! 8)
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Post by levon on Dec 3, 2015 9:18:44 GMT -6
you guys can have Adele, i'll take Joss no doubt! 8) Yesssss, sireee
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Post by Guitar on Dec 3, 2015 16:24:53 GMT -6
It passes the Motown "sing along" test. A huge percentage of contemporary vocal performances would never had been allowed by a Motown producer. Why on Earth would anybody buy a recording they wouldn't want to hear over and over? Bob could you go into any more detail about the "sing along" test? I feel like that's a really important test for any song featuring a lead vocal, and it's something I think about a lot. I'm just wondering about how this test works for you and at Motown. For me it's just something I feel when I listen to a vocal, I really feel it or I don't. When I'm listening to a beautiful vocal I sing along in my head but I mute my own voice because I want every word of the recording to come through, but there's still that feeling of, "this is a song for me and I feel every note" or something like that. Adele's song certainly passes this test for me too.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 3, 2015 16:36:42 GMT -6
Sing along with Roy Orbison's "Oh Pretty Woman." Then sing along with almost any contemporary pop recording and feel the difference. When we sing along in our head, our breath and heartbeat follow.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 5, 2015 19:05:21 GMT -6
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Post by Guitar on Dec 5, 2015 19:31:19 GMT -6
Proof again that dogs truly do love music!
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