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Post by schmalzy on Oct 15, 2015 11:41:59 GMT -6
Hey, guys! Before you see this wall of text and click "back," let me tell you that you can answer the surface of my question by just answering this: Does a small home studio see any benefit from a low-cost ($3000-$8000 used or new) console?
Read on if you want details and/or would like to give a more detailed response. Thanks for any reply/feedback you can give!
(backstory/preamble is between the sets of dashes)
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My whole thought-process requires a bit of a pre-amble. Excuse me while I blurt a novella for you to set up a simple yes/no question (I'd love to hear any thoughts you might have about it but the core of the question is yes/no).
To call my home studio "fledgling" would be kind. It's a new thing. I've been doin' audio work here and there for people - some live and some recorded - but I've not really made a push to do it in any sort of real, professional fashion until just recently.
In fact, all the work I've gotten has been word-of-mouth and without any sort of "business" presence. I'm still working on a website, I don't even have a logo, I don't have any sort of social media, etc. All that's to say "the professional version of this thing I've been doing for fun is pretty new."
I'm booked pretty solid (at not-very-good rates, unfortunately...pricing when starting out as an unknown is difficult) with two full-length records I'm mixing currently plus three EPs booked for recording/producing/mixing in the future as soon as I'm done with the two full-lengths. In addition, I’ve had to turn away some other work because I can’t guarantee any sort of timeliness on getting those projects complete. Apparently, I'm good enough at my price point that people from the area want to work with me. I'm sure I could go up with my rates but I'm trying to build a notable portfolio first.
Obviously, like all of us I suppose, I'd love to be producing audio full time - whether it's recording/mixing projects or post production work (my full time job is in tv/radio commercial post-production and I'd love to get out of my specific office but I like the field). I also live in a non-major-market area where studios are either high-priced or bad to work in.
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Here's the longer version of the original question:
Does a low-cost console - think something like a used Ramsa or Soundcraft Ghost up to something like a Toft ATB (probably just the 24-channel) or maybe stretching up to something used closer to $8000 - add anything really tangible to my studio? I'm planning to use up to 16 of the channel strips (that's my max A/D for now) for recording - I do a lot of drums because I'm low-cost and have a well-treated room. I'm planning to use 8 channels (my current D/A) for summing - up to 16 channels later if I expand my D/A and I see real benefit from OTB summing or decide to mix stems on the desk.
I've done the age-old pro/con list. I keep coming up with a few real pros and not a lot of real cons.
Pros: 1. EQs for everything going in. I end up EQing most channels. It would be great to have a useable EQ on the way in for every channel. 2. Flexible monitoring. Right now my monitoring is not as up-to-snuff as I'd like both in quality and quantities of output (I'm using a Mackie Big Knob as my controller out of my Focusrite SaffirePro40). 3. Some sort of sonic signature from the entirety of the channel strip and summing. 4. Looks cool as hell and lends a legitimacy - "oooh this guy must be serious!" I think I have a real legitimacy problem - no one thinks it's a REAL studio making REAL records when I show them the space. "This is everything?" one guy said. Funny, he liked the sound of my work enough to track down my phone number but my setup didn't say "capable" to him. 5. Worst case scenario, I could take a small-ish console out for a live show if it's ever needed. Most of my live sound work is freelancing on other people's gear but I've had to say "no" to some jobs because I don't have a board.
Cons: 1. Cost. I'd love to just sit on that cash but, truthfully, it'll probably go to something else studio-related as long as I have my full-time job. 2. Space. I have a one-room 21'X15' space that could eventually move to a two-room situation but it's not likely. 3. Noisy PSUs (but might not be a problem - some are quiet and I could probably, assuming the cable was long enough, put the psu in another room). 4. Potential maintenance issues.
What else am I not thinking of?
Am I crazy for considering it?
What say you? Do you have a console of any sort? What are your pros and cons?
Sorry for the long post! Thanks again!
Obviously, I'm confused. Look at how damn much time I spent just typing THAT thing!
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Post by winetree on Oct 15, 2015 12:31:51 GMT -6
Sounds like you've answered your own question. You don't need to convince me I've been using an analog console for over 35 years. Lots of good reasons. The above, sound, no latency. The main reason everyone is dumping their consoles is Recall. If you can sit on a mix and work out later changes, Go for it.
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Post by svart on Oct 15, 2015 12:49:01 GMT -6
I did this 15+ years ago. I listed every available console down with pros and cons.. Only one came up tops.
The Alesis X2.
It's now extremely rare.
Pros: Completely inline. Minimal circuitry in audio path. CAPS(constant amplitude phase shift) style EQs with fully parametric mids. 100mm main faders, 60mm monitor faders Center Section with talkback mic, etc modular design, each channel is removable. Separate switching power supply stays cool, whole board is relatively cool. Full ELCO I/O for tape/converters Full XLR and TRS inputs 8 busses in 4 stereo pairs Inserts on each channel, switchable from pre to post EQ Now you can find them pretty cheap if you can find them
Cons: Not many to be found. People keep them, and those who didn't sold the parts as spares Extremely hard to find spare channels Even harder to find spare power supplies Early models had production issues that cause problems later which need fixing
This was originally a 50K$+ console when Alesis tried it's hand in getting into the mid-level studio market when folks still used mixers and ADATs for semi-pro studios.
Production problems, cost, and computer-based recording eventually killed it off after a couple years of production.
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Post by drbill on Oct 15, 2015 12:57:28 GMT -6
First, it should be known - I LOVE consoles. :-) But mine is in storage and will likely stay there..... (Hybrid and better - or perhaps I should say more desirable for me at this point - sound out of hybrid)
Pros - Impressive - Big - Ergonomically (arguably though) superior to a mouse or controller based system - Fun!!! - Makes people think you're a pro without doing anything
Cons - Very few have total recall, and they are way out of your budget. I can sometimes be working on 8+ songs a day - switching back and forth constantly. No time or assistant for recalling things. If you're mixing at all, recall is mandatory in the "business" side of things these days. That's a deal KILLER that has driven many pro's and console lovers (Like Ronan) to hybrid systems. - Heat - Electrical bills go up and HVAC considerations need to be addressed - To do it right, they require a well thought out electrical and star grounding system that most ITB guys have never considered and/or often don't understand - resulting in less than optimal noise issues and disappointment - Perhaps the worst one for me is control room reflections off the console. This requires some significant mitigation in the CRM acoustics. When I had to remove my console temporarily from my last studio and did some listening on just speakers and a DAW....my jaw hit the floor and I wondered if I could ever put a console in a CRM again. It's a BIG factor that negatively affects acoustics. Many just ignore that aspect. - They can be costly to maintain depending on what you buy. - Depending on model, service and parts are becoming more difficult to obtain - Wiring costs and patch bays . $$$$$$$$$$$$ Often costing more than the console itself. I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys buy $30-50k consoles and end up with no money for wiring the thing.
All that said, I say "LONG LIVE THE CONSOLE"!!! But for me, alas, unless I can put it into someone else's CRM that is close so that I can work there SOMEtimes, it's getting more and more doubtful that I'll ever re-commission her. And that causes me some grief, but I have to make a LIVING at this stuff, and a console slows me down, costs me $$$, and ultimately is not really a great idea for me - today. The sonics are easily attainable via hybrid workflow. The ergonomics can be APPROXIMATED using a control surface, but a control surface is still not a console.
BTW, a good D&R Orion or D&R Vision (if you need to pull it out for live work) would fit your needs and budget.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 15, 2015 16:01:35 GMT -6
I'm in a similar boat and just bought a 40 channel Neotek Elite for a tad more than your budget. Once I get it, it will go in a 13x23 control room until my 1200 sqft ground-up studio is built (which will likely take 1-2 years). The big downside for me is recall, and that will be a huge adjustment... but I don't like the ergonomics (or sonics) of computer mixing, so I think it will be a worthwhile sacrifice. If I wasn't building a larger studio, I probably would have tried something like the SSL x rack and x desk, or maybe saved up for a used SSL AWS900. But the big studio will need a big desk.... and the Neotek is as big as an SSL E series, but generates relatively little heat and needs very little power in comparison..... not to mention, it has 26 busses, 6 auxes, 4 echo, inline, modular, full patchbay, yada yada yada. And the sonics can stand among the best.... I'll let you know in 6 months if I've made a huge mistake
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 15, 2015 16:19:58 GMT -6
I ended using my console for summing only. A few weeks ago I did ask myself if there s a summing unit with inserts .... and there is one. vintageking.com/spl-mix-dream
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Post by lpedrum on Oct 15, 2015 20:53:32 GMT -6
Unless you've been "playing" a board for years I really don't see the point of one in a home studio in this day and age. Your money can be better spent on mics, pres and converters. If you're looking to project a "pro" vibe in your studio, make it a comfortable place to be with lighting, artwork, great instruments and inspiring looking mics. You've already got folks that want to work with you, so YOU get to determine how you want to work, not some part-timer's erroneous perception of what "pro" is. I've never once had an artist say "Where's your board?" and I work regularly. There are many folks on RGO that are very attached to their boards and I totally respect that way of working. But unless you really want to devote yourself to that way of recording, your money can get you better sounds if you invest in great mics, pres, etc. Dr. Bill speaks the truth--at least MY truth.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 16, 2015 10:55:42 GMT -6
I'll tell you my experience. I use an old modded SC Ghost. Got less than 2k in it all in. I've tried mixing ITB without it and go right back to it every time. What this console does for me is indispensable.
Ymmv, of coarse.
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Post by Ward on Oct 16, 2015 17:59:38 GMT -6
I did this 15+ years ago. I listed every available console down with pros and cons.. Only one came up tops. The Alesis X2. It's now extremely rare. Cons: Not many to be found. People keep them, and those who didn't sold the parts as spares Extremely hard to find spare channels Even harder to find spare power supplies Early models had production issues that cause problems later which need fixing This was originally a 50K$+ console when Alesis tried it's hand in getting into the mid-level studio market when folks still used mixers and ADATs for semi-pro studios. Production problems, cost, and computer-based recording eventually killed it off after a couple years of production. Do a www.duckduckgo.com search for 'Alesis X2 console info' and 3 or 4 will pop up, straight away. All are REALLY cheap too. If you're planning on sticking with it, this might be a great way to have all the spares you mentioned.
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Post by sean on Oct 18, 2015 7:53:01 GMT -6
Love a real analog console for tracking, but mixing I've gone in the box...recall is expected especially with out of town clients. I've been strongly considering a SSL Sigma as a way to integrate hardware, seems like a strong contender but by the time I have the bread there's a chance something new and better might come out. I've used other analog summing mixers (including the MixDream) and while inserts are a nice feature, if you are doing any automation in your DAW you're essential riding into your outboard, which isn't usually what I want to do, which is why the Sigma is so appealing.
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Post by rocinante on Oct 19, 2015 1:35:55 GMT -6
I'll tell you my experience. I use an old modded SC Ghost. Got less than 2k in it all in. I've tried mixing ITB without it and go right back to it every time. What this console does for me is indispensable. Ymmv, of coarse. Same here.
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Post by gouge on Oct 19, 2015 3:15:45 GMT -6
make that 2 or is it 3.
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Post by schmalzy on Oct 19, 2015 9:03:44 GMT -6
Interesting perspectives, all! I'm kind of thinking I'll track through a designated set of channels then (to start out with) sum through a different set of channels that should never really change - kind of "solving" some of the recall issue on the board. Of course, I'd still need to do recalls on any of the other outboard gear but that's probably just going to be a few compressors at most. I'll tell you my experience. I use an old modded SC Ghost. Got less than 2k in it all in. I've tried mixing ITB without it and go right back to it every time. What this console does for me is indispensable. Ymmv, of coarse. I've got a local opportunity for a SC Spirit. I've heard they're pretty similar, any real knowledge on the differences between the two? I did some looking around and opinions range from "nothing alike" to "very similar." Which mods did you do to your Ghost? I saw one of those pop up online recently and was trying to convince myself not to drive to Wisconsin (I think that's where it was...now I can't remember) to pick it up. Thanks again for the help, guys! Like my thread title implies, I kind of almost wanted you all to say "That's soooooo dumb. Don't do dumb stuff, dummy" but it appears my thought process was right and that I'd see some "improvement" ("enforced sonic changes that I wouldn't have made otherwise" is more accurate maybe?). Now...to make a decision on which one...
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 19, 2015 11:28:48 GMT -6
Most opinions I've seen on the Spirit were not great. That being said, my uncle upgraded from a Spirit to a Ghost and finds the Ghost to be too clean and a bit boring compared to the Spirit (he records primarily folk/bluegrass). Functionally/technically the Ghost is on another level, and would be the better mod platform. Neither is modular though, although the Ghost has separate pcbs for each channel. After repairing a Ghost, I decided against a console that's not fully modular.... huge PITA to fix.
Based on my research, and recommendations from folks on this forum, the Soundcraft Delta would be a fully modular option that could be had for pretty cheap. Or a D&R Orion would a good option for a bit more, and not too hard to find for around $5k. Both would be very clean sounding boards.
Also, check out this video if you're thinking about the Toft (or any non modular console for that matter)...
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 19, 2015 11:43:29 GMT -6
Yeah you can work on each card separately on the ghost but you have to take the back off, knobs in front etc. Not easy. I've never heard a spirit console so I can't comment. Ghosts are cheap though. They pop up used on eBay all the time for a couple grand. Mod the master section and 2 to 4 channels and you're golden. I modded the groups as well because I use them but it isn't necessary to get the benifit of the console. If you live near a bigger city, I'm guessing you could find a competent tech to do the mods for you. There's info all over the net about modding these things. Beats any summing mixer going for functionality.
Just a word of caution here, if sonics is all you're after, a summing amp might be a better solution? These things take up some real estate. Even smaller ones like mine.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
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Post by ericn on Oct 19, 2015 11:51:09 GMT -6
If a small console is what you want read all the threads where the Delta / Venue is mentioned, sonics and build are a step above The Ghost. Ghost has great routing and isn't bad out of the box . Guys who like Spirit haven't mixed on anything better !
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Post by drbill on Oct 19, 2015 12:44:04 GMT -6
The Spirit is a nice toy though....
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 19, 2015 12:51:00 GMT -6
On the sublect of the Ghost, the eqs are really good on these things. Small amounts can be heard easily. People pay more than 2k for one channel of good eq sometimes. You get 24 with this. That's why I say I'd only mod 2 to 4 channels. The mods make a real difference for the better but you'll still have all those in modded channels left with a different flavor but eq to taste and get anything you want out of them. Inserts on each channel for up to 24 compressors, 8 aux sends for anything you want, 2 stereo. Who needs more for a project studio you know?
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Post by svart on Oct 19, 2015 12:57:41 GMT -6
The X2 was head and shoulders above the Ghost in all aspects, but good luck finding one, let alone a completely working one.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 19, 2015 13:32:16 GMT -6
The X2 was head and shoulders above the Ghost in all aspects, but good luck finding one, let alone a completely working one. Looks like there is one 3 hours from me. reverb.com/item/689537-alesis-x-2-mixer
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Post by svart on Oct 19, 2015 15:22:09 GMT -6
The X2 was head and shoulders above the Ghost in all aspects, but good luck finding one, let alone a completely working one. Looks like there is one 3 hours from me. reverb.com/item/689537-alesis-x-2-mixerNot a bad deal if it works like they say. There are some definite upkeep things that need to be done to most X2 consoles due to their age. I even did a page to archive all this stuff: www.theopiumdenproductions.com/alesisx2/X2.htm
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Post by b1 on Oct 19, 2015 16:40:18 GMT -6
So, the Ghost desk had the Ghost Preamps. What were the Pres in the Delta dubbed; and how do they compare?
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Post by drbill on Oct 19, 2015 17:07:37 GMT -6
They were dubbed "mic pre's" and were kind of crunchy sounding. Not my particular cup of tea, but they can be cool on some drums / guitars if you're looking for that.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 19, 2015 17:52:50 GMT -6
The preamps in my Ghost absolutely suck. Unusable for anything IMO. Dark and not in a good way. I would imagine they could be improved greatly through modification but why? Most of us have so many great press anyway it's just not worth the time or effort.
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Post by swurveman on Oct 19, 2015 19:08:24 GMT -6
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