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Post by EmRR on Jun 3, 2017 22:26:50 GMT -6
You can't keystroke swap cables apples to apples because they have to be going in and out different paths, and I assume there you mean different physical converter paths. 1/10th of a dB makes a difference, and adds another random layer. I haven't measured a converter yet with absolutely identical channel to channel throughput. That's true. What I would do is run audio through cables, all using the same I/O, and then swap back and forth on the printed tracks in the DAW. Doesn't that achieve instantaneous, level playing field cable ABing? Oh, you're printing and comparing playbacks. That adds another layer. Hmm.....I see can of worms......den of snakes?.... Since this is a revived thread, I can't recall if we discussed cable length. Try the test with 100 foot wire lengths. Then with 200 foot lengths. Oh hell, try 1000 feet like a concert facility. Gets us into drbill's hair-shredder. Anyone with a patchbay who does i/o loop trips to print something through hardware easily passes through 100 feet of wire, maybe more.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 3, 2017 22:31:47 GMT -6
I was just having a little fun too. Replacing a seriously old outlet will probably improve everything that's plugged into it. So for those bigger situations with lots of gear that would prove impractical to re-cable, maybe a few new outlets would be a nice upgrade that's cheap.
As for A-B-ing, that, well this can all get a bit silly, but when I moved into my apartment, I replaced one outlet and left the other one nearby alone. It sure sounded better using the new outlet, so I changed all the outlets I use for electronic equipment, including my TV and Hi-Fi system.
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Post by ragan on Jun 3, 2017 22:44:27 GMT -6
That's true. What I would do is run audio through cables, all using the same I/O, and then swap back and forth on the printed tracks in the DAW. Doesn't that achieve instantaneous, level playing field cable ABing? Oh, you're printing and comparing playbacks. That adds another layer. Hmm.....I see can of worms......den of snakes?.... Since this is a revived thread, I can't recall if we discussed cable length. Try the test with 100 foot wire lengths. Then with 200 foot lengths. Oh hell, try 1000 feet like a concert facility. Gets us into drbill's hair-shredder. Anyone with a patchbay who does i/o loop trips to print something through hardware easily passes through 100 feet of wire, maybe more. How does that "add another layer"? Each print has gone through the exact same loop except for the cable. Seems to me if the only variable that changes is the one you want to know about, that's ideal, no? As for length, I understand that things like capacitance become more of a factor the longer the run but they would become more of a factor for a "high end" cable as well as for a generic, cheap cable (especially if they rolled off the same factory line, which happens). They're both gonna increase with distance, right? For me, in my studio, I rarely use more than 30' of cable at a time. I keep some 50' lengths made up for the occasional circumstance that demands it, but usually 25' or 30'. My hardware is all on the bays but with just a few feet of cable per interconnect. I buy it all from Redco and make the cables myself. The guys there are forthright and never try to upsell me on things I don't need. Always sound advice and good product.
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Post by drbill on Jun 3, 2017 22:46:32 GMT -6
I was just having a little fun too. Replacing a seriously old outlet will probably improve everything that's plugged into it. So for those bigger situations with lots of gear that would prove impractical to re-cable, maybe a few new outlets would be a nice upgrade that's cheap. As for A-B-ing, that, well this can all get a bit silly, but when I moved into my apartment, I replaced one outlet and left the other one nearby alone. It sure sounded better using the new outlet, so I changed all the outlets I use for electronic equipment, including my TV and Hi-Fi system. Almost equally as good - polishing your outlets once a year with this : www.flitz-polish.comPlease flip the breakers first, or better yet, flip the breakers, disconnect and pull them out. Every time my tech shows up he starts disconnecting stuff and polishing it with Flitz. Works. And a lot cheaper than $50 receiptcles. Now, not saying $50 receptacles do nothing. But this is a game of percentages, and I'll put my money in the places where the most difference is made. When I built the new studio, I did put in nice receptacles. I think they were around $25-30 each.
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Post by ragan on Jun 3, 2017 22:55:00 GMT -6
I was just having a little fun too. Replacing a seriously old outlet will probably improve everything that's plugged into it. So for those bigger situations with lots of gear that would prove impractical to re-cable, maybe a few new outlets would be a nice upgrade that's cheap. As for A-B-ing, that, well this can all get a bit silly, but when I moved into my apartment, I replaced one outlet and left the other one nearby alone. It sure sounded better using the new outlet, so I changed all the outlets I use for electronic equipment, including my TV and Hi-Fi system. Almost equally as good - polishing your outlets once a year with this : www.flitz-polish.comPlease flip the breakers first, or better yet, flip the breakers, disconnect and pull them out. Every time my tech shows up he starts disconnecting stuff and polishing it with Flitz. Works. And a lot cheaper than $50 receiptcles. Now, not saying $50 receptacles do nothing. But this is a game of percentages, and I'll put my money in the places where the most difference is made. When I built the new studio, I did put in nice receptacles. I think they were around $25-30 each. Martin, Bill... I mean no disrespect or snark. What is it exactly you believe is going on when you switch receptacles or clean them? How do you imagine that is interacting with the PSU's in your gear? This is utterly fascinating to me.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 3, 2017 23:15:30 GMT -6
Oh, you're printing and comparing playbacks. That adds another layer. Hmm.....I see can of worms......den of snakes?.... Since this is a revived thread, I can't recall if we discussed cable length. Try the test with 100 foot wire lengths. Then with 200 foot lengths. Oh hell, try 1000 feet like a concert facility. Gets us into drbill's hair-shredder. Anyone with a patchbay who does i/o loop trips to print something through hardware easily passes through 100 feet of wire, maybe more. How does that "add another layer"? Each print has gone through the exact same loop except for the cable. Seems to me if the only variable that changes is the one you want to know about, that's ideal, no? As for length, I understand that things like capacitance become more of a factor the longer the run but they would become more of a factor for a "high end" cable as well as for a generic, cheap cable (especially if they rolled off the same factory line, which happens). They're both gonna increase with distance, right? It's seen the layer of having been printed at a sample rate and bit depth through a converter, versus a live analog listen. Some people also find this to be very different. Yes, all factors will increase with length, some cables more, some less. Length shows you the increasing residuals from all the various passes you might make from mic to eventual mix print.
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Post by ragan on Jun 3, 2017 23:44:48 GMT -6
How does that "add another layer"? Each print has gone through the exact same loop except for the cable. Seems to me if the only variable that changes is the one you want to know about, that's ideal, no? As for length, I understand that things like capacitance become more of a factor the longer the run but they would become more of a factor for a "high end" cable as well as for a generic, cheap cable (especially if they rolled off the same factory line, which happens). They're both gonna increase with distance, right? It's seen the layer of having been printed at a sample rate and bit depth through a converter, versus a live analog listen. Some people also find this to be very different. Yes, all factors will increase with length, some cables more, some less. Length shows you the increasing residuals from all the various passes you might make from mic to eventual mix print. So are you saying that some cables not only exhibit their own unique capacitance figure but that that figure increases at a different rate than other cable? Or is it linear? In other words, if two cables null to whatever extent at 10', will that null depth change at 100'? So that one of the cable's capacitance is increasing in a nonlinear way?
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Post by drbill on Jun 3, 2017 23:55:26 GMT -6
Almost equally as good - polishing your outlets once a year with this : www.flitz-polish.comPlease flip the breakers first, or better yet, flip the breakers, disconnect and pull them out. Every time my tech shows up he starts disconnecting stuff and polishing it with Flitz. Works. And a lot cheaper than $50 receiptcles. Now, not saying $50 receptacles do nothing. But this is a game of percentages, and I'll put my money in the places where the most difference is made. When I built the new studio, I did put in nice receptacles. I think they were around $25-30 each. Martin, Bill... I mean no disrespect or snark. What is it exactly you believe is going on when you switch receptacles or clean them? How do you imagine that is interacting with the PSU's in your gear? This is utterly fascinating to me. First, I don't believe in over the top receptacles. A decent quality ground isolated hospital grade receptacle is good by me. A 50 y/o oxidized, $2.00 thrashed receptacle is not. Re: the Flitz.....my buddy is a world class tech and designer and part time audiophile and he swears by the stuff. He has built me some over the top gear (power supplies mostly) that are easily and obviously superior to the average off the shelf gear we normally use - so I listen to him. He uses it constantly on everything that passes audio or electricity. I use it. Sometimes. Not as often as I should if I REALLY cared. I mean, if I was totally into it, I could spend a month out of the year pulling connections apart, polishing them, and putting them back together. IMO, that's not a good use of my time. But dirty connections = bad transfer of signal, electricity, etc. Good clean conductive parts = good connections. Good connections = better sonics. Cleaning stuff is (relatively) easy, and really cheap. You probably wouldn't use a 20 year old XLR cable on your $12,000 U47 that had been laying outside in the elements at your beach house for 10 years, right? Oxidized, dirty, unlikely to pass signal cleanly without crackling and signal degradation. Same principle. Only less obvious. Personally, unless I've got obvious problems, I prefer to just make music. Something that people who are paralyzed by ABX tests, constant comparisons and anxiety that there may be something better than what they are using find difficult to schedule. Get yourself some Flitz. It's cheap, and it's a guarantee that someday, something in your studio is going to oxidize. <<thumbsup>> Plus, it actually fights oxidation, so using it actually helps prevent oxidation - not just remove it. If you let your $200 IEC cables oxidize badly, they'll perform worse than your $15 new ones. Keep em clean.
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Post by drbill on Jun 4, 2017 0:07:15 GMT -6
PS - if you live hear the beach, salt water, high humidity or the like, this becomes much more of an issue. I moved to a very dry climate. My little stash of Flitz should last the rest of my daze.
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Post by ragan on Jun 4, 2017 0:10:57 GMT -6
Martin, Bill... I mean no disrespect or snark. What is it exactly you believe is going on when you switch receptacles or clean them? How do you imagine that is interacting with the PSU's in your gear? This is utterly fascinating to me. First, I don't believe in over the top receptacles. A decent quality ground isolated hospital grade receptacle is good by me. A 50 y/o oxidized, $2.00 thrashed receptacle is not. Re: the Flitz.....my buddy is a world class tech and designer and part time audiophile and he swears by the stuff. He has built me some over the top gear (power supplies mostly) that are easily and obviously superior to the average off the shelf gear we normally use - so I listen to him. He uses it constantly on everything that passes audio or electricity. I use it. Sometimes. Not as often as I should if I REALLY cared. I mean, if I was totally into it, I could spend a month out of the year pulling connections apart, polishing them, and putting them back together. IMO, that's not a good use of my time. But dirty connections = bad transfer of signal, electricity, etc. Good clean conductive parts = good connections. Good connections = better sonics. Cleaning stuff is (relatively) easy, and really cheap. You probably wouldn't use a 20 year old XLR cable on your $12,000 U47 that had been laying outside in the elements at your beach house for 10 years, right? Oxidized, dirty, unlikely to pass signal cleanly without crackling and signal degradation. Same principle. Only less obvious. Personally, unless I've got obvious problems, I prefer to just make music. Something that people who are paralyzed by ABX tests and constant comparisons find difficult to schedule. Get yourself some Flitz. It's cheap, and it's a guarantee that someday, something in your studio is going to oxidize. <<thumbsup>> Plus, it actually fights oxidation, so using it actually helps prevent oxidation - not just remove it. If you let your $200 IEC cables oxidize badly, they'll perform worse than your $15 new ones. Keep em clean. I'm not saying anything at all about your buddy's tech skillz, I'm just very curious what the alleged difference is to your gear's PSU if it sees 120v from a "clean" little piece of metal contact or 120v from a "dirty" little piece of metal contact. Honest question. I take my rig from my brand new, clean, professionally wired (by an electrical contractor who's also a studio guy) room up to my family's cabin that my grandpa wired in the 70s re-using any and all receptacles that he pulled out of other buildings during his career as an appliance repairman and guess what...they all read the same ~120v and they all sound the same (to me).
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Post by drbill on Jun 4, 2017 0:12:51 GMT -6
First, I don't believe in over the top receptacles. A decent quality ground isolated hospital grade receptacle is good by me. A 50 y/o oxidized, $2.00 thrashed receptacle is not. Re: the Flitz.....my buddy is a world class tech and designer and part time audiophile and he swears by the stuff. He has built me some over the top gear (power supplies mostly) that are easily and obviously superior to the average off the shelf gear we normally use - so I listen to him. He uses it constantly on everything that passes audio or electricity. I use it. Sometimes. Not as often as I should if I REALLY cared. I mean, if I was totally into it, I could spend a month out of the year pulling connections apart, polishing them, and putting them back together. IMO, that's not a good use of my time. But dirty connections = bad transfer of signal, electricity, etc. Good clean conductive parts = good connections. Good connections = better sonics. Cleaning stuff is (relatively) easy, and really cheap. You probably wouldn't use a 20 year old XLR cable on your $12,000 U47 that had been laying outside in the elements at your beach house for 10 years, right? Oxidized, dirty, unlikely to pass signal cleanly without crackling and signal degradation. Same principle. Only less obvious. Personally, unless I've got obvious problems, I prefer to just make music. Something that people who are paralyzed by ABX tests and constant comparisons find difficult to schedule. Get yourself some Flitz. It's cheap, and it's a guarantee that someday, something in your studio is going to oxidize. <<thumbsup>> Plus, it actually fights oxidation, so using it actually helps prevent oxidation - not just remove it. If you let your $200 IEC cables oxidize badly, they'll perform worse than your $15 new ones. Keep em clean. I'm not saying anything at all about your buddy's tech skillz, I'm just very curious what the alleged difference is to your gear's PSU if it sees 120v from a "clean" little piece of metal contact or 120v from a "dirty" little piece of metal contact. Honest question. I take my rig from my brand new, clean, professionally wired (by an electrical contractor who's also a studio guy) room up to my family's cabin that my grandpa wired in the 70s re-using any and all receptacles that he pulled out of other buildings during his career as an appliance repairman and guess what...they all read the same ~120v and they all sound the same (to me). I listen to people who are obviously far smarter and more experienced than me in these matters. That's my answer and I'm sticking to it. But just to play devil's advocate - how do you KNOW they sound the same. You're in two different environments. Ralph (my buddy) is a genius at power supplies and high current power delivery - especially power supplies for consoles, audiophile grade studio power amps, etc.. He has proven to me over and over that he CAN hear the differences, I can hear the differences, and killer power delivery makes a huge difference in the studio under normal human circumstances.
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Post by ragan on Jun 4, 2017 0:21:50 GMT -6
I'm not saying anything at all about your buddy's tech skillz, I'm just very curious what the alleged difference is to your gear's PSU if it sees 120v from a "clean" little piece of metal contact or 120v from a "dirty" little piece of metal contact. Honest question. I take my rig from my brand new, clean, professionally wired (by an electrical contractor who's also a studio guy) room up to my family's cabin that my grandpa wired in the 70s re-using any and all receptacles that he pulled out of other buildings during his career as an appliance repairman and guess what...they all read the same ~120v and they all sound the same (to me). I listen to people who are obviously far smarter and more experienced than me in these matters. That's my answer and I'm sticking to it. Hey fair enough. I've known plenty of smart people who are wrong about various things. I do really respect experience and collected wisdom, but in an area that is so frought with expectation bias and unverifiable superstition, I like to at least get a good idea what the claim is before judging it for myself. For example, if your buddy is saying "I clean the receptacles to make sure the gear is seeing the 120v it wants to see" that makes perfect sense to me. In other words, as long as the gear is getting the correct voltage, the PSU will do whatever it's gonna do and the function will be the same, be it a 40 year old receptacle or something someone spent $200 on yesterday. But if he's saying "the old, cheap receptacle and this new one that I just sprayed with cleaner are both delivering 120v but the one I just sprayed is better" then I wanna know what exactly is being claimed.
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Post by drbill on Jun 4, 2017 0:24:12 GMT -6
I listen to people who are obviously far smarter and more experienced than me in these matters. That's my answer and I'm sticking to it. Hey fair enough. I've known plenty of smart people who are wrong about various things. I do really respect experience and collected wisdom, but in an area that is so frought with expectation bias and unverifiable superstition, I like to at least get a good idea what the claim is before judging it for myself. For example, if your buddy is saying "I clean the receptacles to make sure the gear is seeing the 120v it wants to see" that makes perfect sense to me. In other words, as long as the gear is getting the correct voltage, the PSU will do whatever it's gonna do and the function will be the same, be it a 40 year old receptacle or something someone spent $200 on yesterday. But if he's saying "the old, cheap receptacle and this new one that I just sprayed with cleaner are both delivering 120v but the one I just sprayed is better" then I wanna know what exactly is being claimed. I don't try to quantify all the minutae. I listen to people I respect who have proven themselves to me. That's good enough for me. You have a curious / doubting spirit, which is 100% OK. But that's not how I roll. I can't get any work done that way. For instance, as example, I chose to use Mogami wiring over some cheaper alternative that MAY (or possibly may not) be just as good. No comparisons needed, no tests, no 100 meter capacitance runs, no nulling, no problems. I just get to work making music. THAT''S what keeps me delivering 2-300 pieces of music a year. And that pays the bills and allows me to spend more time in the studio than if I tried to save money (or, GASP, spend more) in an effort to gain some mystical sonics that I have to take months to study to get a verified and repeatable answer to a question.
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Post by ragan on Jun 4, 2017 0:27:15 GMT -6
I'm not saying anything at all about your buddy's tech skillz, I'm just very curious what the alleged difference is to your gear's PSU if it sees 120v from a "clean" little piece of metal contact or 120v from a "dirty" little piece of metal contact. Honest question. I take my rig from my brand new, clean, professionally wired (by an electrical contractor who's also a studio guy) room up to my family's cabin that my grandpa wired in the 70s re-using any and all receptacles that he pulled out of other buildings during his career as an appliance repairman and guess what...they all read the same ~120v and they all sound the same (to me). I listen to people who are obviously far smarter and more experienced than me in these matters. That's my answer and I'm sticking to it. But just to play devil's advocate - how do you KNOW they sound the same. You're in two different environments. Ralph (my buddy) is a genius at power supplies and high current power delivery - especially power supplies for consoles, audiophile grade studio power amps, etc.. He has proven to me over and over that he CAN hear the differences, I can hear the differences, and killer power delivery makes a huge difference in the studio under normal human circumstances. Re: how do you know... You're right, I don't know. It's too subjective going off memory and vague impressions. When I listen to the tracks back in my room, they sound exactly like my playing through my gear in that room (the cabin). Not in any way objective in telling me my gear is ok with the cabin's 120v like it is with my room's 120v. It's my sense that it sounds h same but, and I mean no irony, I'd never claim to truly KNOW it unless I could test it somehow, like a proper blind AB or a proper null test or what have you.
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Post by ragan on Jun 4, 2017 0:31:48 GMT -6
Hey fair enough. I've known plenty of smart people who are wrong about various things. I do really respect experience and collected wisdom, but in an area that is so frought with expectation bias and unverifiable superstition, I like to at least get a good idea what the claim is before judging it for myself. For example, if your buddy is saying "I clean the receptacles to make sure the gear is seeing the 120v it wants to see" that makes perfect sense to me. In other words, as long as the gear is getting the correct voltage, the PSU will do whatever it's gonna do and the function will be the same, be it a 40 year old receptacle or something someone spent $200 on yesterday. But if he's saying "the old, cheap receptacle and this new one that I just sprayed with cleaner are both delivering 120v but the one I just sprayed is better" then I wanna know what exactly is being claimed. I don't try to quantify all the minutae. I listen to people I respect who have proven themselves to me. That's good enough for me. You have a curious / doubting spirit, which is 100% OK. But that's not how I roll. I can't get any work done that way. For instance, as example, I chose to use Mogami wiring over some cheaper alternative that MAY (or possibly may not) be just as good. No comparisons needed, no tests, no 100 meter capacitance runs, no nulling, no problems. Just get to work making music. THAT''S what keeps me delivering 300 pieces of music a year. And that pays the bills and allows me to spend more time in the studio that if I tried to save money (or, GASP, spend more) in an effort to gain some mystical sonics that I have to take months to study to get a verified and repeatable answer to a question. Hey I'm with you. I'm very curious as to what peoples' claims are. When it comes to actually making music, I don't think about it for one second. I know what my experience (including grilling people I respect) has taught me and I've made my gear choices and I get going and don't fret over things like balanced cabling or IEC cables that I, as of yet, have no reason to believe in. I DO like to know what the actual claims are. Otherwise I'm evaluating/judging/scrutinizing some half cocked thing no one actually said. I honestly have no problem being wrong. Hell, that's the only way to learn anything.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 4, 2017 1:59:12 GMT -6
>>I can set up blind swapping with a couple keystrokes. I close my eyes and spend some time going back and forth and auditorally peering into the sonics, without knowing which is which. I do it all the time with comparing plugins vs hardware or two pieces of processing or two mics I'm comparing or whatever. It's wonderful. So many times the differences that seem so apparent when I know what's what, largely evaporate when I don't know which is which.<< This^ I've found that at the very edges of my ear's competency, memory plays a role. I.e. at that level direct A/Bing is essential because my ears forget what I've listened to/for after about 5 to 10 seconds, and if I have to A/B more than a half dozen times, it's just splitting hairs. I've found that when A/B testing that each successive iteration has less validity and that on subtle details people have a strong tendency to second guess themselves. A/B testing tends to put a presasure on the subject that causes him to listen differently, and in a way that is in reality less precise, because they're self-conscious about making a choice. I hate to say it this way, but it's almost an analogy of the q uantum mechanical principle that the act of observation changes the results of the experiment. "Expectation bias" in reverse.
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Post by jin167 on Jun 4, 2017 2:10:28 GMT -6
is everyone listening to their music in an anechoic chamber through their converter with infinite bit depth and noiseless/distortionless/infinite BW amplifier/speaker? jesus.. hearing something that can't be measured. pff.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 4, 2017 2:18:02 GMT -6
I was just having a little fun too. Replacing a seriously old outlet will probably improve everything that's plugged into it. So for those bigger situations with lots of gear that would prove impractical to re-cable, maybe a few new outlets would be a nice upgrade that's cheap. As for A-B-ing, that, well this can all get a bit silly, but when I moved into my apartment, I replaced one outlet and left the other one nearby alone. It sure sounded better using the new outlet, so I changed all the outlets I use for electronic equipment, including my TV and Hi-Fi system. Almost equally as good - polishing your outlets once a year with this : www.flitz-polish.comPlease flip the breakers first, or better yet, flip the breakers, disconnect and pull them out. Every time my tech shows up he starts disconnecting stuff and polishing it with Flitz. Works. And a lot cheaper than $50 receiptcles. Now, not saying $50 receptacles do nothing. But this is a game of percentages, and I'll put my money in the places where the most difference is made. When I built the new studio, I did put in nice receptacles. I think they were around $25-30 each. $50 medical grade outlets can save your life (literally) when you're huffing ether (auto starting fluid) in the studio....
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 4, 2017 2:19:52 GMT -6
Almost equally as good - polishing your outlets once a year with this : www.flitz-polish.comPlease flip the breakers first, or better yet, flip the breakers, disconnect and pull them out. Every time my tech shows up he starts disconnecting stuff and polishing it with Flitz. Works. And a lot cheaper than $50 receiptcles. Now, not saying $50 receptacles do nothing. But this is a game of percentages, and I'll put my money in the places where the most difference is made. When I built the new studio, I did put in nice receptacles. I think they were around $25-30 each. Martin, Bill... I mean no disrespect or snark. What is it exactly you believe is going on when you switch receptacles or clean them? How do you imagine that is interacting with the PSU's in your gear? This is utterly fascinating to me. Lowered resistance in the power line.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 4, 2017 2:23:01 GMT -6
is everyone listening to their music in an anechoic chamber through their converter with infinite bit depth and noiseless/distortionless/infinite BW amplifier/speaker? jesus.. hearing something that can't be measured. pff. We hear stuff that can't be measured all the time. Test gear is not really the ultimate arbiter - that's why it periodically gets better. And anechoic chambers make very poor listening environments.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 4, 2017 2:33:59 GMT -6
I'm not saying anything at all about your buddy's tech skillz, I'm just very curious what the alleged difference is to your gear's PSU if it sees 120v from a "clean" little piece of metal contact or 120v from a "dirty" little piece of metal contact. Honest question. I take my rig from my brand new, clean, professionally wired (by an electrical contractor who's also a studio guy) room up to my family's cabin that my grandpa wired in the 70s re-using any and all receptacles that he pulled out of other buildings during his career as an appliance repairman and guess what...they all read the same ~120v and they all sound the same (to me). Resistance is resistance and resistance with power applied creates noise for one thing. And resistance is cumulative, so every little bit makes a difference, sometimes incremental, sometimes not. Remember the old Isaac Asimov analogy about water flow. The wire is the pipe, the water is the flow of electrons. A little crimp at one place in the pipe impedes the flow of water to the faucet/turbine/whatever. For maximum performance you want to eliminate all the little crimps in the pipe you can.
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Post by jin167 on Jun 4, 2017 2:51:20 GMT -6
is everyone listening to their music in an anechoic chamber through their converter with infinite bit depth and noiseless/distortionless/infinite BW amplifier/speaker? jesus.. hearing something that can't be measured. pff. We hear stuff that can't be measured all the time. Test gear is not really the ultimate arbiter - that's why it periodically gets better. And anechoic chambers make very poor listening environments.you clearly don't understand the aim of my statement.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 4, 2017 8:12:13 GMT -6
So, it turns out Drbill and I actually approach cabling from almost the same perspective, ha!
He said, "Ralph (my buddy) is a genius at power supplies and high current power delivery - especially power supplies for consoles, audiophile grade studio power amps, etc.. He has proven to me over and over that he CAN hear the differences, I can hear the differences, and killer power delivery makes a huge difference in the studio under normal human circumstances.
So, we agree you can hear differences in cabling, we agree you have to prioritize, and we differ in that I have a very small system, so I can afford the slight extravagance of a few upgraded power cords and cables. I also agree that cleaning up transmission devices is smart, and once a year, I clean everything.
jin, I believe we hear and feel many things that can't be measured yet. One example is how audiophile trolls made the internet a drag for a decade arguing about ones and zeros being ones and zeros, until jitter became an acknowledged and accepted factor in audio quality. There's more to the story than meets the eye, or the ear, or the body. I'm not suggesting you begin believing in voodoo, just try a couple of interconnects and power cords in case something strikes your fancy, if not, no harm done.
People keep wanting to say you can't trust your ears, well, I trust mine. They're welcome to doubt their judgements all they want.
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Post by ragan on Jun 4, 2017 9:21:38 GMT -6
I'm not saying anything at all about your buddy's tech skillz, I'm just very curious what the alleged difference is to your gear's PSU if it sees 120v from a "clean" little piece of metal contact or 120v from a "dirty" little piece of metal contact. Honest question. I take my rig from my brand new, clean, professionally wired (by an electrical contractor who's also a studio guy) room up to my family's cabin that my grandpa wired in the 70s re-using any and all receptacles that he pulled out of other buildings during his career as an appliance repairman and guess what...they all read the same ~120v and they all sound the same (to me). Resistance is resistance and resistance with power applied creates noise for one thing. And resistance is cumulative, so every little bit makes a difference, sometimes incremental, sometimes not. Remember the old Isaac Asimov analogy about water flow. The wire is the pipe, the water is the flow of electrons. A little crimp at one place in the pipe impedes the flow of water to the faucet/turbine/whatever. For maximum performance you want to eliminate all the little crimps in the pipe you can. But if that resistance were there at the cabin, wouldn't that show up on a meter? If I'm getting 120v on the old crummy receptacle and 120v on the new fancy receptacle doesn't that mean the "added rsistence" isn't there, or is it not voltage that you're talking about? If the PSU is seeing 120v, doesn't the PSU take it from there, making what the receptacle looked like aesthetically a moot point?
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Post by ragan on Jun 4, 2017 9:23:49 GMT -6
This^ I've found that at the very edges of my ear's competency, memory plays a role. I.e. at that level direct A/Bing is essential because my ears forget what I've listened to/for after about 5 to 10 seconds, and if I have to A/B more than a half dozen times, it's just splitting hairs. I've found that when A/B testing that each successive iteration has less validity and that on subtle details people have a strong tendency to second guess themselves. A/B testing tends to put a presasure on the subject that causes him to listen differently, and in a way that is in reality less precise, because they're self-conscious about making a choice. I hate to say it this way, but it's almost an analogy of the q uantum mechanical principle that the act of observation changes the results of the experiment. "Expectation bias" in reverse. I can see some validity in these points. That's the kinda thing I was asking for over and over with the "what's wrong with blind ABing?" questions. I think if you're used to ABing that way, it gets natural and you reach meaningful conclusions but I can see how what you're saying would affect some people in some circumstances.
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