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Post by Guitar on Aug 29, 2015 17:24:58 GMT -6
Jim I've got a couple mics I'd like to try that on, I don't know if you could send two pieces, I could pay for it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 29, 2015 20:36:05 GMT -6
No matter where I go online that has anything to do with audio, I've been saying cables matter for a long long time. Then I get no they don't, in blind tests no one can identify one from the other, then I get page after page of debate and argument about test methods and their validity, more debate, sarcasm, condescension, and occasionally a few voices of authority, and then.. a bunch of people wanting to try it for themselves. And that's all I've ever said, try it for yourself, see what you find. Jim, Cardas is a well known and respected brand in the world of wire. I have 2 15' Mogami cables, one to my mic, one to my power supply. I've found it to be noisy, it might be from a number of factors, my AC, my power center, proximity to my computer, the cables, all of the above, but I would like to try those Cardas cables too. I just found this at Cardas, do you think it's equal to or better than the AGSS 19 Guage silver you recommended? www.cardas.com/clear_tube_microphone_cable.php
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 30, 2015 10:28:58 GMT -6
I used Cardas litz cable in the High Speed mic preamp back in the 1990's. No longer. It was a multi strand shielded copper litz design, difficult to solder without a solder pot tinning the ends first.
I found it to have a clogged audio quality about it. That wire you linked to is a multiconductor shielded cable, I'm guessing copper conductors. The AGSS is a 3 braid pure silver stranded with a 10,000 volt teflon insulation. It was $60 per foot a decade ago, probably much more since silver went up from $6 per oz.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 30, 2015 14:50:46 GMT -6
Yikes, that's pretty steep, but now I'll be wanting one, aarrgghh...Thanks Jim.
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Post by duke on Jun 2, 2017 1:06:00 GMT -6
Johnkenn wrote: "I keep hearing about audiophile wives who share their husband’s passion – everyone I speak to seems to know another audiophile whose wife enjoys nothing more than discussing the finer points of software room correction – but I never actually meet one. I start to wonder if it’s a kind of urban myth."
Unicorns. That's what they are. I didn't believe in them either, but then I met one and tricked her into marrying me. When I met her, I'm not sure she even knew what an "audiophile" was, which gave me an unfair advantage. But I could see that her appreciation of sound quality was way out at the tail end of the bell curve. She is the first female I met who instantly fell in love with the seven foot tall electrostats I owned at the time. I'm pretty sure they are why she married me. Like I said, unfair advantage.
One day I wondered if there were audible differences between balanced interconnects. I happened to have six different balanced interconnects on hand, so I set up a simple blind test. It was like a double-elimination basketball tournament. I switched out the cables and told her when I'd made a change, and put on whatever piece of music I was using (NOT Diana Krall). She would stop reading her book and listen intently and scribble down some notes, then she'd pick the winner of each "duel" based on her notes. And going back over her notes, I could see that she consistently described each cable whenever it showed up in the different duels. Her favorite was by a company called Creative Cable Concepts, a company that I had no connections with - they were just loaner cables from a friend.
I trust her ears more than my own. Her ears have more taste buds than mine do.
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Post by viciousbliss on Jun 2, 2017 3:39:22 GMT -6
There's so many variables with this stuff. I just gave up thinking about it once I decided a neutral system worked for me bc it got rid of the harsh qualities I hated. My Audient ID14 headphone amp sounds pretty nice even though I know the impedance isn't exactly right for my K701s. What's always amusing is when people do blind shootouts and think something like Waves V-Comp is the hardware or prefer the Bomb Factory 76 over some respected 1176 hardware. Lot of extremely ocd people on other forums where the primary concern is listening and not engineering.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 2, 2017 7:51:19 GMT -6
Blind tests have so many variables and shortcomings, I find them of interest, and occasionally helpful, but certainly not the last word. Many aspects of audio reveal themselves over time, and then, they've become obvious and permanently annoying, so a blind test wouldn't reveal things like that.
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Post by svart on Jun 2, 2017 8:54:13 GMT -6
This is probably the most comprehensive list of 50 blind and ABX tests and results I've found over time: www.head-fi.org/f/threads/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths.486598/The short answer is that once biases are accounted for, most self-described audiophiles can't tell the difference between various pieces being swapped in/out of a system if they can't see it. Most of these tests show about a 50/50 result spread, about as good as guessing. "The clear conclusion is that ABX testing does not back up many audiophile claims, so they become audiophile myths as they show cables do not inherently change sound. Any change in sound quality comes from the listeners mind and interaction between their senses. What is claimed to be audible is not reliably so." Then again, there is always the best one: consumerist.com/2008/03/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables/
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 2, 2017 9:07:22 GMT -6
Sorry, I don't buy this at all. Blind tests have inherent biases, period. Other far more knowledgeable engineer members here have said as much in other posts, so we'd be rehashing the same argument. So I'm not gonna argue my point this time, it's a rabbit hole. You want to use coat hangers or radio shack spools, be my guest ;-)
People who want to hear there's no difference are only too glad to believe in blind tests to reaffirm their beliefs. I've often argued about cables or power cords with people who never even tried switching out a cable once. Ask Jim Williams or Bob Olson.
* by the way, I've never found Monster Cables to sound very good. There are other brands at the same price points that are far superior.
** oh, and Duke, I've never found that audiophile wife you mentioned eiither, and I've known more than a few audiophiles in my time. Welcome to the forum!
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Post by duke on Jun 2, 2017 12:10:15 GMT -6
Sorry, I don't buy this at all. Blind tests have inherent biases, period. Other far more knowledgeable engineer members here have said as much in other posts, so we'd be rehashing the same argument. So I'm not gonna argue my point this time, it's a rabbit hole. You want to use coat hangers or radio shack spools, be my guest ;-) People who want to hear there's no difference are only too glad to believe in blind tests to reaffirm their beliefs. I've often argued about cables or power cords with people who never even tried switching out a cable once. Ask Jim Williams or Bob Olson. * by the way, I've never found Monster Cables to sound very good. There are other brands at the same price points that are far superior. ** oh, and Duke, I've never found that audiophile wife you mentioned eiither, and I've known more than a few audiophiles in my time. Welcome to the forum! Your example earlier in the thread of jitter is an excellent one, showing that focused human perception can be far more discerning than the consensus theories and best measurements of the day.
The late Richard C. Heyser was one of the sharpest minds in the field of audio measurements. He's the one who invented time-gated ("quasi-anechoic") loudspeaker measurements, and brought Fast Fourier Transform analysis into the game. Here's how he concluded one of his fairly technical articles: "You out there, Golden Ears, the person who couldn't care less about present technical measurements but thinks of sound in gestalt terms as a holistic experience. You're right, you know."
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Post by ragan on Jun 2, 2017 14:36:34 GMT -6
I'd be thrilled to believe some of these ideas about cabling. It'd be an easy as hell way to get better sonics, rather than mucking around in the trenches with the hard stuff i.e. performance, room, mics, pres, chops, etc.
If there are actually some sonic gains out there that are as easy as swapping out balanced cables or IEC cords, I'm all ears.
I just need something to go on besides audio faith.
If there is something solid out there that supports these types of claims, I'd gladly and non-judgmentally check it out.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 2, 2017 15:01:05 GMT -6
Here's how I started down this path. Four decades ago, I was buying something at an audiophile store. I also needed some speaker wire. I'd always used heavy gauge Radio Shack wire or lamp cord. The salesman said I should try these $90 speaker wires by a company called Tributaries, and I looked at him like he was crazy.
I absolutely would not believe a speaker wire could sound different, and I was staunchly opposed to any salesperson nonsense. The guy knew me and said, "try these over the weekend, and I won't put the credit card through, if you don't like them, just bring them back". So, despite my misgivings I gave it a try, since I do have an open mind, though I'm quite' skeptical.
I played some familiar music, and a certain string part was now obviously synthesized, when previously I thought they were real strings. Also, some words that were indistinguishable in some Tom Waits songs I liked were now perfectly clear, in Wait's perfectly grumbly fashion.
So, the speaker wire gave me a much more realistic sound and intelligibility was much better, so I kept them. It worked, they sounded better, clearly better.
Many years later, I was asked by a few audiophile cable manufacturers to beta test some megabuck cabling. Often, They'd leave the prototypes with me. So at one time, my cables were worth more than my system!
Eventually, I had to sell all those fancy wires, and guess what, I pulled my old Tributaries wire out of storage, and still use it to this day, and it still sounds good.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 2, 2017 16:28:58 GMT -6
Blind tests are very useful but properly designed ones including the appropriate level of listener training and number of listeners aren't common because doing a legitimate one is a very expensive process.
Something else about wire is that connecters that are constructed to clean the average connection when they are plugged in often make a pretty big difference.
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Post by ragan on Jun 2, 2017 16:48:19 GMT -6
Blind tests are very useful but properly designed ones including the appropriate level of listener training and number of listeners aren't common because doing a legitimate one is a very expensive process. Something else about wire is that connecters that are constructed to clean the average connection when they are plugged in often make a pretty big difference. So are you saying it's your opinion that balanced cables are audibly different or just that dirty connections affect the sonics and proper blind tests are laborious to execute? Not nitpicking, I just genuinely want to know what your actual opinion is. What would be the potential issue with me running audio sources through different cables, level matching them and then listening blind?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 2, 2017 20:07:07 GMT -6
The two statements are unrelated. Cleaning connecters does get confused with wire differences. Blind testing is meaningless and almost always yields random results without proper training that focuses on specific artifacts.
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Post by guitfiddler on Jun 2, 2017 20:20:59 GMT -6
I know through my own experience that guitar cables matter. One I really like going from my guitar into my amp. It gives me the tone I want. The ones I played with for years were ultra clean and neutral sounding, but the newer one I tried just gave me what I was looking for.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 2, 2017 21:25:20 GMT -6
Bob Olhsson said, "Blind testing is meaningless and almost always yields random results without proper training that focuses on specific artifacts"
Thank you.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 2, 2017 21:31:07 GMT -6
Guitar cables are the most extreme case because capicatance has a huge effect on frequency response.
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Post by ragan on Jun 3, 2017 0:22:06 GMT -6
The two statements are unrelated. Cleaning connecters does get confused with wire differences. Blind testing is meaningless and almost always yields random results without proper training that focuses on specific artifacts. Hmm. Well, ok. That's not what I asked about though, for the record. I'm interested to know if you think different balanced cables sound different. I'm also interested to know how me running audio through various cables and then blind ABing them is somehow "meaningless".
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 3, 2017 8:14:18 GMT -6
I've heard different balanced cables sound different. The best I've heard is Belden Media Twist solid core. It was developed for digital television stations to replace coax. I'd originally gotten it for some long AES/EBU runs back in California but it had been sitting in a box here in NashVegas. A friend who had been using the high priced spread suggested that I try it for an analog connection and it turned out to be great. It is unshielded so it needs to be used with real and not pseudo balanced gear having excellent common mode rejection.
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Post by ragan on Jun 3, 2017 9:11:59 GMT -6
I've heard different balanced cables sound different. The best I've heard is Belden Media Twist solid core. It was developed for digital television stations to replace coax. I'd originally gotten it for some long AES/EBU runs back in California but it had been sitting in a box here in NashVegas. A friend who had been using the high priced spread suggested that I try it for an analog connection and it turned out to be great. It is unshielded so it needs to be used with real and not pseudo balanced gear having excellent common mode rejection. Gotcha. Well I'll stop asking about the blind AB thing and how you came to the "meaningless" conclusion. Obviously your experience speaks for itself, I was just wondering if you had ideas about cable sonics that I hadn't heard before. Not that anecdotal experience is invalid or anything, it's just not very persuasive to me personally when it comes to something like this.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 3, 2017 9:20:00 GMT -6
I really think the first stop on this tour isn't opinions, but trying it yourself, however flawed it may be. I feel that I've heard many differences, and opinions about those differences are easily many with no universally accepted grading. I've not heard a difference that was much other than a slight shade. If you have a very small system, it may make sense to chase what you feel is best, if you have a very large system it may seem pointless to chase for either cost or entropy reasons. You may also try this and hear no difference, in which case you are probably best saying "it doesn't matter to ME", and move on secure in the knowledge you checked it out.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 3, 2017 9:36:44 GMT -6
Ragan, if you want to be persuaded, just try a few different cables in a few situations and see for yourself. In much less time than it takes to discuss these things, you'd have your answer. Why wait for someone to "prove' something to you, when the proof is had by listening and trying it for yourself. As a musician with great ears like yourself, who is so committed to great sound and tries all sorts of minutia when it comes to gear, why on earth wouldn't you just try it and see?
Imagine the difference you hear when you change from a Blueline M7 capsule to a Redline capsule. It's the same mic, same input, just a little different harmonically, almost indistinguishable to some, but undeniable too. Cabling is a bit like that.
But as you well know, if that subtle change really suits you, it's no longer a small matter.
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Post by ragan on Jun 3, 2017 10:23:43 GMT -6
Yeah, for me (and I really do mean 'for me'), trying to hear that kind of subtle difference anecdotally, that is, just in use where you're sort of 'remembering' what the other cable sounded like as you use the new one, isn't valid. Again, FOR ME. The ears are so easily fooled. And how many dozens or hundreds of times have all of us been tweaking an EQ and thought "Ahh, that's better, that snare is sitting much better in the track now" only to realize the EQ is in bypass.
Asking your ear to guess about tiny differences with many minutes in between hearing the different kinds of cable is just not something I have faith in. For the record, I have compared cables. Not a ton but several. Every single time, after failing a blind AB, I'd run a null test and they'd null to infinity. In the DAW that is. I know you, Doug, have said you have some reservations about DAW null tests because the meters only go down to, what -60-70db? Granted the null is going deeper, maybe to infinity, hard to say. Either way, the times I have compared cables, I think I'm hearing all sorts of differences...until I compare them blind. Then it's always right around that good ol' 50/50 guessing game.
I was in a discussion once on GS with a guy who claimed these huge, night and day differences in about 6 high end cable types. He had all sorts of descriptors for what they each sounded like. When I sort of got into the discussion with him, he posted a WAV file of a pristine jazz recording about a minute long, through each of the cable types. I put the files in my DAW and every one of them nulled. He didn't buy that of course so I spliced together the clip where it changed cables about 12 times, at random intervals and asked him to listen and tell me if there were any cable changes and if so where they were. He never replied again of course because the sonics were all identical.
That's a dumb GS internet pissing match of course and I don't at all mean to imply you guys here are on that level, cause I know you're not. I guess I'm just saying that I have put some time into this question and the answer in my experience has always been a resounding "balanced cables sound the same". But I'm always curious and was wondering if anyone had anything that to me would be solid on the matter, supporting the idea that the cabling sounds different.
The experience of just kind of getting an impression of a cable, when you know you've just swapped it out, simply isn't trustworthy to me. That kind of listening has shown itself to be unreliable over and over and over in my experience.
BUT if someone has some experience that says "hey, these cables sound different and I can reliably pick it out blind and also they don't null" I'd very much like to hear about that.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 3, 2017 10:41:40 GMT -6
As several have said, many times you have to live with and observe these subtle differences over a long period of time to readily detect them. Do they matter? Up to you. Indistinguishable in an ABX test shows how small these differences are, doesn't mean they aren't real.
I mean hell, I scoff at the cork-sniffing around opamps. Why? Because I live in a world of a lot of tubes, much greater differences. There too, you can say "does it matter? Can I get work done?"
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