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Post by scumbum on Sept 1, 2013 17:17:03 GMT -6
Is it possible to get Pro sounding drums in a small room ? Any tips on micing up the kit ?
8 feet 4 inch - ceiling , 8 feet 6 inch - wide , 14 feet - long ,
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 1, 2013 17:25:28 GMT -6
Triggers. Haha.
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 1, 2013 18:10:14 GMT -6
Depends what you consider "Pro". If you're into the Flaming Lips kind of drum thing, sure. If you're thinking Alter Bridge or Bublé or something - no.
I kind of like small rooms, as long as they don't have noticeable flutter echo. They sound very real. Get he drums in the part of the room they sound best in, use an ORTF or a blumlein. Stick a room mic in the stairwell or the toliet. I like taking my ECM8000's for adventures to see what they'll find. You'll be surprised what you can squeeze out of a domestic space. You're not going to get big room sounds, so my advice is don't aim for them. Aim for dramatic - whatever seems striking for whatever song you're doing.
EDIT: Boundary mic techniques are always worthwhile in small places - either with actual boundary mics or just with mics as close to a surface as possible. A stereo boundary array can be cool too.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 1, 2013 18:44:24 GMT -6
Depends what you consider "Pro". If you're into the Flaming Lips kind of drum thing, sure. If you're thinking Alter Bridge or Bublé or something - no. I kind of like small rooms, as long as they don't have noticeable flutter echo. They sound very real. Get he drums in the part of the room they sound best in, use an ORTF or a blumlein. Stick a room mic in the stairwell or the toliet. I like taking my ECM8000's for adventures to see what they'll find. You'll be surprised what you can squeeze out of a domestic space. You're not going to get big room sounds, so my advice is don't aim for them. Aim for dramatic - whatever seems striking for whatever song you're doing. EDIT: Boundary mic techniques are always worthwhile in small places - either with actual boundary mics or just with mics as close to a surface as possible. A stereo boundary array can be cool too. Great advice. |
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Post by Ward on Sept 1, 2013 19:15:33 GMT -6
Set the drums up diagonally in the center of the room... close mic all drums, hats and ride. Overheads high as possible, cardioid position, ORTF or AB or ABC. Room mics in far opposing corners set to omni and crush them.
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Post by scumbum on Sept 1, 2013 20:19:00 GMT -6
Set the drums up diagonally in the center of the room... close mic all drums, hats and ride. Overheads high as possible, cardioid position, ORTF or AB or ABC. Room mics in far opposing corners set to omni and crush them. Thanks for the advice guys ! Now why is it best to put the overheads high as possible and not as close as possible to the cymbals ? Since the ceiling is 8 feet 4 inch , maybe put them up on the ceiling ? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 1, 2013 23:46:40 GMT -6
I like overheads up as high as possible on an 8' ceiling, that is about 7' to 7.5' if you put a 6" to 1' absorber over the mic to "lift" or invisible the ceiling above the mic. Without an absorber over the mic, an 8' ceiling has never sounded good IME
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Post by levon on Sept 2, 2013 1:06:27 GMT -6
I just recorded myself playing drums in my small room and I'm surprised how good it sounds. Very dry and full, almost like 70s Fleetwood Mac drums. Add some room IRs or try some Lexicon settings and it sounds very big. I used only 4 mics, the Glyn Johns method, and it worked a charm. I'll definitely do it again, even though I could hardly move in the room with my kit set up. It's fun, try it. The four-mic method is great and sounds amazingly good.
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Post by timmyboy on Sept 2, 2013 4:02:35 GMT -6
I think the most important thing is to tune the drums for the room. I've been playing my DW kit for over 10 years - and the difference in the way it sounds from room to room is almost unrecognizable. If I tune all the skins too tight in a small room - the kit sounds too dry and thin. If I tune the skins loose in a big room - it's all too boomy with not enough attack. But tuning it lower in the small room - makes the room sound bigger.
The sound you get from how tight / loose the skins are make more difference than mic placement IMHO
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Post by levon on Sept 2, 2013 4:39:33 GMT -6
True ^^
Tuning is important. However, I tend to tune drums to the key of the song, not to the room. Maybe something to consider, hmmmm
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 2, 2013 5:02:34 GMT -6
Set the drums up diagonally in the center of the room... close mic all drums, hats and ride. Overheads high as possible, cardioid position, ORTF or AB or ABC. Room mics in far opposing corners set to omni and crush them. Thanks for the advice guys ! Now why is it best to put the overheads high as possible and not as close as possible to the cymbals ? Since the ceiling is 8 feet 4 inch , maybe put them up on the ceiling ? You'd do it to minimize comb filtering - it's back to the boundary thing again. By the time the 2nd reflection hits the mic it'll have traveled a little further and will be attenuated - which means the amount of interference drops. You also get a slightly longer pre-delay. High frequencies radiate in a very directional way. Why close mic'ing a gigantic moving plate that vibrates at 100's of different frequencies which are all fairly directional (presumably with a cardioid which has a pickup pattern that changes with proximity and angle) is a messy idea I'll let you decide. |
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Post by timmyboy on Sept 2, 2013 5:59:27 GMT -6
True ^^ Tuning is important. However, I tend to tune drums to the key of the song, not to the room. Maybe something to consider, hmmmm I definently agree with tuning to the song. In a perfect world (or on a big budget) you can have a selection of many different size drums with various shell thickness's - so that you can choose the right tone color while still tuning to the song. But in a situation where you don't have a choice of 20 snares - is it going to sound more wrong to not be in tune with the song - or to have a drum sound that doesn't suit the style of music? Has anyone used pitch correction successfully for drum tuning so that you can still have skins as tight / loose as you need during tracking? Does it work? If it does, it seems like a good solution |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Sept 2, 2013 7:18:15 GMT -6
My room is 25 x 25 with a 9 foot ceiling.
I've found less mics usually are better in this situation, which is fine by me, because that's my normal procedure anyhow.
I also found that besides the obvious (a great drummer), more then anything else the actual drum kit in that room is the key thing.
When I moved into my new space, which was quite smaller then my previous room of 27 years (45 x 31x 13) I found the actual shell size, wood, and # of ply's (as well as skins) to be more important to the sound in the room then I ever noticed before at my old joint.
It took me a few months, and quite a few different kits, sizes (5) to find a set that actually sounds great in my smaller space.
Now I have to make No excuses...
And 95% of the bands just use my kit, cause it sounds amazing in this room...
My feeling is a bit of experimenting my be in order?
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 2, 2013 7:32:15 GMT -6
I agree with nobtwiddler. I think a great drum sound can be achieved in a small room. My approach has been close miking and lower gain levels. The small room I track them in is pretty dead with little to no overtones so I'm forced to use artificial space reverbs. And I've recently been using the live drums just to augment my sampled kits. This combo has been real nice for me.  |
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 2, 2013 7:40:35 GMT -6
I agree with nobtwiddler. I think a great drum sound can be achieved in a small room. My approach has been close miking and lower gain levels. The small room I track them in is pretty dead with little to no overtones so I'm forced to use artificial space reverbs. And I've recently been using the live drums just to augment my sampled kits. This combo has been real nice for me. Nice room treatment! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 2, 2013 9:51:09 GMT -6
I've been a drummer for 28 years, IMO drums need to be tuned to their sweet spot for relative pitch, tone and feel of each individual drum itself, and as a whole kit instrument. i've practiced long and hard building drums from scratch, and tuning obsessively. It's a bit of a black art, but IME, most pro level drummers have a "sound" and tune the way they tune consistently. I agree different kits will sound better in different rooms, but i would suggest gobo absorbers and diffusors/adjustable wall treatments to "make the room sound right for the kit you're using" not the other way around. I know everything in art is subjective, but you don't tune guitars or any other instrument that i'm aware of, too a room? But again, to each his own.
btw, quick reflections off the ceiling into an overhead are the No.1 drum sound killer in a small room ime
good luck with it, have fun
T
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Post by scumbum on Sept 2, 2013 14:35:24 GMT -6
Thanks for all the tips guys , I'll try them out !!
I was thinking.........what about surrounding the drums with 703 owens corning panels ?? Basically put the panels above and all around the drum set . Wouldn't this take the room out of the picture ? Any one try this ?
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 2, 2013 14:51:32 GMT -6
Thanks for all the tips guys , I'll try them out !! I was thinking.........what about surrounding the drums with 703 owens corning panels ?? Basically put the panels above and all around the drum set . Wouldn't this take the room out of the picture ? Any one try this ? I've recorded in extremely absorbent rooms. It doesn't remove the room from the picture. Not below 500hz, at any rate. Room treatments a good idea, though. Hopefully building some diffusors this weekend! |
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Post by timmyboy on Sept 2, 2013 15:19:48 GMT -6
I know everything in art is subjective, but you don't tune guitars or any other instrument that i'm aware of, too a room? Hmmm, 'tuning' was probably the wrong word for me to use. What I was trying to get at was the way in which the overall 'character' of a drum changes as the skins are tightened / loosened. You can get very different sounds from a drum by adjusting this - but when you are always tuning that drum to its sweet spot - you do get the 'biggest' possible sound the drum can make (as the drum is tuned to the resonant freq of the shell) - what if that sound doesn't suit the style of music??? Should you grab a different kit entirely? What if you don't have access to one? (I don't believe gobos etc will change the sound of the kit enough. When I sing into a mic, I can't change my voice into another mans voice by hanging up a gobo) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 23:35:15 GMT -6
has anyone ever tracked drums in a room that had some QRDiffusors in them?
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 2, 2013 23:48:44 GMT -6
has anyone ever tracked drums in a room that had some QRDiffusors in them? yes saxman!, they are great in a small room, kill your ceiling and put a room ribbon mic behind some things and around some corners and such, use the null, it creates distance in the upper freq's, especially with the rounding off up there. u CAN trick a small room to a degree, it'll be easy for you, especially with your dumbo sized ears! 8) the qrd's are killer, the more the better, make em out of blue extruded polystyrene(nicenlight) build at different q's and make sure u use inversions so you don't lobe, also get some concrete tubes, cut them in 1/2 and 2 foot lengths, they store stacked and take up little room, throw em on the floor when your ready to track, they'll diffuse and trick it some more. T |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2013 7:00:07 GMT -6
Concrete tubes? I think Ethan Winer dispelled the myth about those being useful as diffusors... Also, aren't they really difficult to cut, unless you have a band saw? I'm thinking of the 2' diameter variety..
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 3, 2013 10:10:57 GMT -6
Concrete tubes? I think Ethan Winer dispelled the myth about those being useful as diffusors... Also, aren't they really difficult to cut, unless you have a band saw? I'm thinking of the 2' diameter variety.. any circular saw/steady hand can cut these with ease, they are not technically as effective as a specific designed qrd diffusor, but they do indeed diffuse, they are light, quickly distributed and stacked and stored completely out of the way in one hot minute. Perfect for the small room/space challenged. Just cut in the 2' configuration i suggested. btw, this guy seems to like the radius approach,...but who's he??    Btw, if you want to make those 1/2 rounds extremely effective, drill these binary patterns into them, then they turn into pseudo "bad panel" radius diffusors(pm me if you want a printable template 8)  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2013 11:06:29 GMT -6
Anyone care to post or direct us to a previous post to a clip or sing using drums recorded in a small room?
Thank you.
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Post by svart on Sept 3, 2013 11:31:21 GMT -6
Alright guys, I wish I had seen this the other day. I record drums in a "small" room, with great results. My room was 9ft high by 13ft wide, by 14ft long.
I say "was" because the only thing you can do with a small room is deaden it to some degree. Flutter echo and comb filtering are both huge problems in a small room, regardless of what folks say. My ceiling was open joists from the floor above. I dropped my ceiling 4 more inches and packed 2 layers of R30 into that space and covered it with burlap. The ceiling is now very dead. I built an angled wall on one side of the length of the room, about 15-20deg from parallel. That helped a lot with the flutters and combing. Bass traps in a couple of the corners along one side of the room that had the worst modes. I have 2ftx4ft absorbers attached to mic stands that I can move around to create baffles and things.
As for mic placement. Unless you have a dead ceiling, avoid putting the mics near the ceiling. The cardiod side lobes will pick up some of the reflected sound and you'll get a wonky response. Your best bet is to hang 4in thick absorbers above the mics so that most of the direct reflection is absorbed. I find my overheads are about 2 drum stick lengths away from the cymbals. That ends up being about half way from the cymbals to the ceiling.
You might also do well by buying some hardwood plywood and using it to create angles in the room to offset the fluttering and combing. I'd also use it in combination with rockwool absorbers to tailor the sound of the room.
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