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Post by unit7 on Mar 11, 2015 11:44:29 GMT -6
So we finally made it happen today! My friend and drummer Jörgen has a slightly bohemic and lovely studio in the heart of the area in Stockholm where most artistic people live, and only four blocks from my place. The mics: Kick - SM52, Snare - EV RE27 and OHs - Vintage Gefell 582s with cardoid M94 capsules, into Logic via an Apollo interface.  Mic pres tested: AMS/Neve reissue 1084s, Don Classics NV73s, CAPI VP28s (red dot), CAPI Heider in Hi Z (kick/snare only), Chandler TG2 (kick/snare only) and Jörgens vintage Trident console preamps.   We recorded each pre with 2-6 different gain settings to find out how they behave when pushed. Jörgen tried to play the same part over and over again, but naturally there's some difference in every performance, especially in the end of the session when he got a bit tired after playing the same part for like 50 times. There's quite some work left putting all files in ProTools and adjust gain. Then I'll make a zip of the session and link to my Dropbox, hopefully this weekend. It all was very fun and interesting. Our general consensus was that we agree with those who say preamps matter so much less than the performance, choice of room and mics, and that we should stop worrying about preamps and make music instead. However I, kind of, got confirmation once again that I do like the subtle Neve flavor on drums. It's probably mostly because I'm so used to that sound, very hard to tell. I also thought the DIY Don Classics NV73s sounded super close to the 1084 reissues, just as in previous tests I've done, which is really good news. The Chandler was fairly close too (edit: heard the difference better today at my own place). After gain staging is completed I'm fairly sure I won't be able to tell which is which in a blind test. We both preferred the Neve styles over the CAPIs when pushed to saturation/distortion. We felt that the CAPI sounded more flat and a bit more modern, to be vague.. Generally we thought all contenders sounded great, even the Trident console preamps, altough it was a tad bit mushy. I'll be back with the zipped ProTools session. I think I'll be studying these files quite a lot...  |
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Post by Ward on Mar 12, 2015 9:53:42 GMT -6
Looking forward to the PT session! But an RE27 on snare??? It makes an amazing Kick and Voice-over mic but I've never seen or heard of anyone using it on snare drum. This could prove interesting.
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Post by unit7 on Mar 12, 2015 10:10:42 GMT -6
Looking forward to the PT session! But an RE27 on snare??? It makes an amazing Kick and Voice-over mic but I've never seen or heard of anyone using it on snare drum. This could prove interesting. Neither I have tried that before, but you know, my friend is a drummer and we did this in his studio and he said that he'd been using that mic for snare for a while and liked it, so I didn't bother to dispute. And it do sound great, I think you'll agree! Gain staging is trickier than I thought. As long as the pres don't clip, everything is pretty straightforward, but the clipped/distorted takes subjectively sounds so much louder that I have to lower them 5-8 dB to match the other takes. Any ideas on how to approach? Go by meter or by ear? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 12, 2015 10:20:22 GMT -6
IMO, go by ear, i've heard your stuff and you are very good at what you do P, your ears can surely find average level and let the dynamic range of each pre set it's OWN peaks.
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Post by unit7 on Mar 12, 2015 10:41:10 GMT -6
IMO, go by ear, i've heard your stuff and you are very good at what you do P, your ears can surely find average level and let the dynamic range of each pre set it's OWN peaks. Thanks T! Ok, I'll set the levels roughly by ear and then leave it to you all to adjust further. Otherwise I could be doing this forever... |
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Post by unit7 on Mar 12, 2015 13:40:08 GMT -6
Ok, so now I've matched tracks the best I can, saved as both ptx and ProTools v7-9, zipped and saved in my Dropbox, link: www.dropbox.com/s/e001flcr22fnl4m/MicPre%20Test.zip?dl=0Enjoy!/Paul Notes: - The passes are labeled with letters A, B, C etc with lowest gain settings at A and put in different playlists - We did more high gain passes with Neve style pres simply because we thought those were still somewhat useable - Heider Kick/snare were recorded with VP28s on overs - Chandler TG2 Kick/snare were recorded with Trident on overs Subjective notes: - To my ears the AMS/Neves sound a bit more driven than the NV73s (at same gain settings), so AMS/Neve A matches NV73 B or C - I liked the VP28/Heider with pad and regret we didn't do a couple more passes of those. I think especially the snare, using the EV RE27 seems to have pushed the CAPI pres already at lowest Input gain with no PAD, which is confirmed by the fact that I didn't have to lower the Fader pot when raising the input gain in examples B-D. I regret that I didn't understand that while we were recording. - When the sounds break up and distort they're obviously compressed and the overall level sounds louder despite that the meter shows lower level. To me (not much recording engineer experience of rock) it was a revelation to hear the passes with medium saturation, still sounding 'healthy' but fatter and louder while being more compressed and not peaking the meters as much. Settings: AMS/Neve 1084 reissue A: Kick 25dB, Snare 20dB, OH 35dB B: Kick 30dB, Snare 25dB, OH 40dB C: Kick 35dB, Snare 30dB, OH 45dB D: Kick 40dB, Snare 35dB, OH 50dB E: Kick 50dB, Snare 45dB, OH 60dB F: Kick 60dB, Snare 55dB, OH 70dB NV73 A: Kick 25dB, Snare 20dB, OH 35dB B: Kick 30dB, Snare 25dB, OH 40dB C: Kick 35dB, Snare 30dB, OH 45dB D: Kick 45dB, Snare 40dB, OH 55dB E: Kick 60dB, Snare 55dB, OH 65dB VP28 (settings written as Preamp Gain/Channel Fader) A: Kick (PAD) 42dB/+4, Snare (PAD)42dB/-8, OH 33dB/0 B: Kick 25dB/-4, Snare 25dB/-12, OH 33dB/0 (unchanged from A) C: Kick 29dB/-4, Snare 29dB/-12, OH 36dB(unity)/-4 D: Kick 33dB/-8, Snare 33dB/-12, OH 39dB/-8 Heider (Hi Z), only Kick/Snare. Overs with VP28s set as above A: Kick (PAD) 42dB/+2, Snare (PAD)42dB/-12 B: Kick 25dB/+2, Snare 25dB/-8 C: Kick 29dB/0, Snare 29dB/-12 D: Kick 33dB/-8, Snare 33dB/-12 Chandler TG2 only Kick/Snare. Overs with Trident console pres A: Kick 40dB, Snare 25dB B: Kick 45dB, Snare 30dB C: Kick 55dB, Snare 40dB Trident console pre A: Kick, Snare and OH all with light clipping - the way Jörgen use to record B: Same but with medium/heavy clipping |
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Post by Ward on Mar 12, 2015 13:40:13 GMT -6
IMO, go by ear, i've heard your stuff and you are very good at what you do P, your ears can surely find average level and let the dynamic range of each pre set it's OWN peaks. I concur. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jun 23, 2016 1:16:52 GMT -6
A little bump to thank Unit7 for this shootout!
All the pres sound great and it's awesome to hear how they overdrive!
This test just goes to confirm that I'm a Neve man, the 1084s sound perfect to me. The NV73 has a smooth 3D depth, the Capis are more agresive in the upper mids and have a cool in your face punch, and to me the 1084 sits right in the middle between the two and have an awesome driven sound.
Alas , given that I'm updating my mobile rig and I need 8 pres, I can get 8 NV73s for the price of one 1084 so it's a no brainer for me, I will be adding some Dons pretty soon.
I'm also surprised how much I liked the driven Trident sound, I would love it for recording some old school funk, or punk rock!
Brice
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Post by ariel on Dec 31, 2016 0:40:09 GMT -6
Thank you so much for doing this shootout and test. One of the best out there. the changing of input gain is an incredible way to really hear them all.I have lsiten tot he files quite extensivly. Hands down I love the sound of the 1084's they just sound like finished music to my ears. The NV73's had the same vibe but like a scranwy younger brother. The TG was cool. But by far the 1084's stood out the most for me. warm gooey and musical smoothness. These were the AMS-reissues, I presume the BAE equivalents would be pretty darn close.It is fascinating how much difference each brand can make.
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Post by ariel on Dec 31, 2016 3:22:35 GMT -6
I am curious as to why the Dob classics NV73 doesnt have the same beef as the AMS-neve unit, both using modern components. I am curious as to how the AMLEZ1073 sounds compared to the AMS-Neve.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 31, 2016 10:42:43 GMT -6
I am curious as to why the Dob classics NV73 doesnt have the same beef as the AMS-neve unit, both using modern components. I am curious as to how the AMLEZ1073 sounds compared to the AMS-Neve. I heard that too. Also, all of the CAPI pres are super punchy sounding compared to the rest. It would be nice to be that spoiled for choice! |
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Post by unit7 on Dec 31, 2016 11:39:22 GMT -6
Thank you so much for doing this shootout and test. One of the best out there. the changing of input gain is an incredible way to really hear them all.I have lsiten tot he files quite extensivly. Hands down I love the sound of the 1084's they just sound like finished music to my ears. The NV73's had the same vibe but like a scranwy younger brother. The TG was cool. But by far the 1084's stood out the most for me. warm gooey and musical smoothness. These were the AMS-reissues, I presume the BAE equivalents would be pretty darn close.It is fascinating how much difference each brand can make. Thanks ariel ! Though we agree on liking the AMS/Neve best in this test, as mentioned above after hearing the differences I relaxed a lot regarding choice of pres. In a musical context (instead of soloed) I'd say the differences would be noticed even less. Also, with the exploding "saturation market" and all options at our hands these days, HW and SW, I feel I'd better focus on the music and musicians while recording, record fairly clean and then play with saturation later. Still nice to hear which one prefers, if levels get hot. Happy 2017 to you and everybody! |
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Post by ariel on Jan 8, 2017 1:39:33 GMT -6
I see a couple of DAV pres in there, how do they sound compared to the rest ?
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Post by unit7 on Jan 8, 2017 18:16:17 GMT -6
I see a couple of DAV pres in there, how do they sound compared to the rest ? Have never used them on drums. A/B'd once on acoustic and found them clean, not at all in the boring way. Very pleasant. Used them once for room mics on a classical recording. |
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 9, 2017 9:22:03 GMT -6
I have done similar tests with drums and guitars vox etc... You would be amazed at how much more the Capi actually captures. Sometimes you want this, sometimes you don't. On electric guitars, snares, some vocals nothing beats them. Kick was a revelation to me, it is very true and was the only preamp which captured the head flutter but in this case I didn't want it and preferred the Neve pre on the kick or I would have more work to do on the drum to dampen that, but the Capi vp28 design actually captures more information then a Neve design whether you want that or not...
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Post by ariel on Jan 11, 2017 0:19:13 GMT -6
Sozocaos, I hear what you are saying. I lean towards the neve in a big way as to my ears it sounds more finished even though the capi has that punch I dig the warmth of the neve overall. My goal is to just have all the same preamp style to remove all options that would also eliminate option anxiety as well ;)Also to track full lengths in the traditional sense of a complete console
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 11, 2017 12:15:59 GMT -6
See I like the RAW very Real thing the API brings.... I like the choice to finish the sound in production.... I do like the Larger then life Neve thing especially on vox, acoustic and kick though.
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Post by core64 on Jan 19, 2017 17:55:06 GMT -6
Really great shootout. I was really surprised at the differences (however slight) but definitely noticeable. They're all usable and agree with the mindset that mics and rooms hold a greater stake-hold in the chain, but impressive just the same. The 1084's definitely had something special about them from top to bottom though for sure. Thanks for you time and effort on this, much appreciated!
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Post by Guitar on Jan 20, 2017 7:19:51 GMT -6
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Post by core64 on Jan 20, 2017 13:47:22 GMT -6
Thanks Dan, appreciate it.
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Post by ariel on Nov 7, 2017 3:06:50 GMT -6
Giving this a bump as it is a must listen to test. I still dig the AMS-Neve units by quite a bit over the others. I was hoping the Don Classics NV73s would be the same but they dont do what the AMS units do.
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Post by svart on Nov 7, 2017 10:43:32 GMT -6
Giving this a bump as it is a must listen to test. I still dig the AMS-Neve units by quite a bit over the others. I was hoping the Don Classics NV73s would be the same but they dont do what the AMS units do. Doesn't look like the files are there anymore, unfortunately. |
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Post by Guitar on Nov 7, 2017 19:30:11 GMT -6
Aw darn. I also have become sort of a 'Neve guy' on drums lately. It's not exactly the same thing, but between UAD Unison preamps for my drums I choose between Neve, API, SSL, and UA 610, and for me more often, it's Neve All the Time.
The CAPI gear I have used, though, is also entirely great, and I will use it again.
Dave Grohl on Nevermind anyone??
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919 
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Post by ericn on Nov 7, 2017 20:04:06 GMT -6
Honestly the pre is what type of flour should I use in these cookies, it makes a difference, but drums, drummer, room & mic make a bigger difference.
Yeah it matters but I'm not going to argue with either.
With Neve the iron seams to be the key, when pushed the real deal old Transformers just make things big and exciting, I wish I could find a modern build that gives me what my 8 ch of Dan Alexander reproductions with Recycled Transformers brings. I sold My CAPI's a while ago because I knew I could still easily get that sound from more CAPI at any time and have the sound of old API.
Having both is the way to go, damn I want me some Heiders!
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Post by notneeson on Nov 7, 2017 21:14:14 GMT -6
Honestly the pre is what type of flour should I use in these cookies, it makes a difference, but drums, drummer, room & mic make a bigger difference. Yeah it matters but I'm not going to argue with either. With Neve the iron seams to be the key, when pushed the real deal old Transformers just make things big and exciting, I wish I could find a modern build that gives me what my 8 ch of Dan Alexander reproductions with Recycled Transformers brings. I sold My CAPI's a while ago because I knew I could still easily get that sound from more CAPI at any time and have the sound of old API. Having both is the way to go, damn I want me some Heiders! I remember that moment for me: "it's the room, stupid." And it was a Heider room! |
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