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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2023 3:17:46 GMT -6
A good demo from Sweetwater, gain staging could be better controlled but you do hear the tone of this plug and see its features well demoed.
a not so supportive review
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2023 3:58:25 GMT -6
Here is an insightful/interesting criticism of how UA codes its plugs; re: oversampling effect:
Its from a comment on David's video above.
@joesalyers
6 months ago
I think it might be the oversampling UAD use, if you work at any other sampling rate outside of 48K it will cause a narrowing because the low pass filter is in the wrong spot, in reality the problem is, even at 192 or 96 or 88.2K they are oversampling from 48K internally. All you have to do to see this is open a session at say 96K and analyze the plugin it will have a hard oversampling low pass filter set to 24K not 48K which would be the proper place for a 96K session. I always thought it was to conserve DSP usage on the Sharc chips they use but even their Native plugins do this. This is how UAD have built their plugins for over a decade now. Their is no reason for this arbitrary low pass filter to be there in a native plugin, and at higher sampling rates which some people use it is even more noticeable. For some weird reason they don't account for anything outside of 48K as a sampling rate. I'm not saying higher sampling rates are better or anything like that, what I am saying is that UAD are not implementing their oversampling algorithms correctly and it really is the issue with their native plugins and its a shame because no one is talking about this. Plugin doctor or the Free bertom's EQ analyzer will show you the bad oversampling filter they use.
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2023 8:32:03 GMT -6
Here is an insightful/interesting criticism of how UA codes its plugs; re: oversampling effect: Its from a comment on David's video above. @joesalyers 6 months ago I think it might be the oversampling UAD use, if you work at any other sampling rate outside of 48K it will cause a narrowing because the low pass filter is in the wrong spot, in reality the problem is, even at 192 or 96 or 88.2K they are oversampling from 48K internally. All you have to do to see this is open a session at say 96K and analyze the plugin it will have a hard oversampling low pass filter set to 24K not 48K which would be the proper place for a 96K session. I always thought it was to conserve DSP usage on the Sharc chips they use but even their Native plugins do this. This is how UAD have built their plugins for over a decade now. Their is no reason for this arbitrary low pass filter to be there in a native plugin, and at higher sampling rates which some people use it is even more noticeable. For some weird reason they don't account for anything outside of 48K as a sampling rate. I'm not saying higher sampling rates are better or anything like that, what I am saying is that UAD are not implementing their oversampling algorithms correctly and it really is the issue with their native plugins and its a shame because no one is talking about this. Plugin doctor or the Free bertom's EQ analyzer will show you the bad oversampling filter they use. I'm not sure what this guy is talking about or why he actually thinks it's bad, in a practical real world use? He just says it's "bad" without actually explaining why. Is it something he's actually hearing? The low pass filter at 24k isn't, in and of itself, "bad". He seems to indicate that he thinks that people sample at 96k because they want to hear frequencies up in that range, but that's not why you sample at 96k (or why you oversample, for that matter). |
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Post by ragan on Nov 29, 2023 9:00:51 GMT -6
I haven't been crazy about this comp since getting it in the big bundle. Maybe it will grow on my over time.
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2023 9:15:16 GMT -6
I haven't been crazy about this comp since getting it in the big bundle. Maybe it will grow on my over time. Though I own it as part of the U12 bundle, I haven't really played around with it much. That said, I believe I remember reading that the headroom knob (or some other such knob) was particularly important to getting the most tone/vibe out of this plugin. In case that knob is something you haven't messed around with. |
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Post by doubledog on Nov 29, 2023 9:30:14 GMT -6
Here is an insightful/interesting criticism of how UA codes its plugs; re: oversampling effect: Its from a comment on David's video above. @joesalyers 6 months ago I think it might be the oversampling UAD use, if you work at any other sampling rate outside of 48K it will cause a narrowing because the low pass filter is in the wrong spot, in reality the problem is, even at 192 or 96 or 88.2K they are oversampling from 48K internally. All you have to do to see this is open a session at say 96K and analyze the plugin it will have a hard oversampling low pass filter set to 24K not 48K which would be the proper place for a 96K session. I always thought it was to conserve DSP usage on the Sharc chips they use but even their Native plugins do this. This is how UAD have built their plugins for over a decade now. Their is no reason for this arbitrary low pass filter to be there in a native plugin, and at higher sampling rates which some people use it is even more noticeable. For some weird reason they don't account for anything outside of 48K as a sampling rate. I'm not saying higher sampling rates are better or anything like that, what I am saying is that UAD are not implementing their oversampling algorithms correctly and it really is the issue with their native plugins and its a shame because no one is talking about this. Plugin doctor or the Free bertom's EQ analyzer will show you the bad oversampling filter they use. I'm not sure what this guy is talking about or why he actually thinks it's bad, in a practical real world use? He just says it's "bad" without actually explaining why. Is it something he's actually hearing? The low pass filter at 24k isn't, in and of itself, "bad". He seems to indicate that he thinks that people sample at 96k because they want to hear frequencies up in that range, but that's not why you sample at 96k (or why you oversample, for that matter). And I don't think that is a hard fast rule for every plugin UA makes. There was an SOS article (way back in 2014 - Hugh Robjohns), that talked about this a bit. www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-why-do-universal-audio-restrict-processing-bandwith-their-uad-plug-insOversampling frequency, your session sampling rate, and bandwidth of an analog device (i.e., an 1176 does not have a response of 0-384KHz!) are not the same thing and all must be considered in this kind of discussion. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2023 9:43:43 GMT -6
The oversampling varies by plug. I found the opinion interesting as I thought oversampling relates to latency ? i thought that’s why ampex was just for 2 bus vs studer which can be used elsewhere.
I’m only running native UA plugs now and tend not to use plugs tracking anyway.
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2023 10:09:18 GMT -6
I'm not sure what this guy is talking about or why he actually thinks it's bad, in a practical real world use? He just says it's "bad" without actually explaining why. Is it something he's actually hearing? The low pass filter at 24k isn't, in and of itself, "bad". He seems to indicate that he thinks that people sample at 96k because they want to hear frequencies up in that range, but that's not why you sample at 96k (or why you oversample, for that matter). And I don't think that is a hard fast rule for every plugin UA makes. There was an SOS article (way back in 2014 - Hugh Robjohns), that talked about this a bit. www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-why-do-universal-audio-restrict-processing-bandwith-their-uad-plug-insOversampling frequency, your session sampling rate, and bandwidth of an analog device (i.e., an 1176 does not have a response of 0-384KHz!) are not the same thing and all must be considered in this kind of discussion. Yeah, you found that article. I went looking for it myself, and couldn't find it, so I'm glad you found it. In any case, I think that article does a good job explaining it. I think the guy who commented on the video didn't have the full picture or understand this stuff. |
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Post by Quint on Nov 29, 2023 10:11:26 GMT -6
The oversampling varies by plug. I found the opinion interesting as I thought oversampling relates to latency ? i thought that’s why ampex was just for 2 bus vs studer which can be used elsewhere. I’m only running native UA plugs now and tend not to use plugs tracking anyway. It does relate to latency, but the Studer oversamples too, to my knowledge. There's something else going on with the Ampex that gives it its substantially longer latency, over and above the typical latency (~55 samples) that most of UAs oversampled plugins exhibit. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 29, 2023 10:35:03 GMT -6
I only use it on the master. Tried a bunch of plugs yesterday to match it and I still pretty much preferred it. I start by adding a console emu and EQ and get that level to where it’s peaking at 0 on a VU meter (calibrated at -14). Then I start with the Wide M/S preset or whatever. I like the m/s and attack and release settings. Then ill adjust the headroom knob to where its just tickling the mid meter but never really going over 1 db ish reduction. I’ll usually bring the side volume up a little for width. Output usually at around -13 ish lufs going into mastering stuff.
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Post by wiz on Nov 29, 2023 15:24:12 GMT -6
I only use it on the master. Tried a bunch of plugs yesterday to match it and I still pretty much preferred it. I start by adding a console emu and EQ and get that level to where it’s peaking at 0 on a VU meter (calibrated at -14). Then I start with the Wide M/S preset or whatever. I like the m/s and attack and release settings. Then ill adjust the headroom knob to where its just tickling the mid meter but never really going over 1 db ish reduction. I’ll usually bring the side volume up a little for width. Output usually at around -13 ish lufs going into mastering stuff. thanks for this. I just tried these settings.... and it sounds really great!!! I didn't worry about the LUFS values.... just selected the preset you mentioned...and adjusted the headroom control...until I got no more than 1 dB reduction thanks John cheers Wiz |
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Post by guitfiddler on Nov 29, 2023 16:00:11 GMT -6
Cool stuff, now I just need to understand UAD’s native plug-in approach. I don’t want to get into a subscription. Can you buy a native UAD plug-in and use it on your Protools rig without the subscription?
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2023 16:07:32 GMT -6
You only get a sub plan if you buy it.
When purchasing plugs, you are not buying a sub plan, you have to select each plug in or bundle and you will see your cart for review, to apply coupons and to see if you have any discounts from ua available to you, before you purchase.
i don’t use PT ‘s any more, and there does seem ti be sone aax bug now, but Ragan uses PT’s, just bought a bundle of 44 ua plugs, which include Capital and I don’t think he has had problems: Ragan ?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 29, 2023 16:22:31 GMT -6
Cool stuff, now I just need to understand UAD’s native plug-in approach. I don’t want to get into a subscription. Can you buy a native UAD plug-in and use it on your Protools rig without the subscription? yes. I run them without issue...well, the occasional issue... |
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Post by doubledog on Nov 29, 2023 17:32:01 GMT -6
Cool stuff, now I just need to understand UAD’s native plug-in approach. I don’t want to get into a subscription. Can you buy a native UAD plug-in and use it on your Protools rig without the subscription? I have both DSP (Apollo 16 and a PCIe quad card) and I use the Native plugins too. To use Native plugins you have to install UAConnect and authorize those (to an ilok), and install them. I actually find this easier than the humungous download for the DSP plugins. And you can do updates fairly easily too (unless its Ravel - which is huge). And it all works fine for me, but I'm on Windows so YMMV. btw, "Spark" is the subscription for the Native plugins, but you can buy individual Native plugins too, just like you can buy DSP. On the UA website, they show either Native, Apollo, or both. |
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jono3
Full Member
Posts: 45
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Post by jono3 on Nov 30, 2023 1:12:27 GMT -6
I demo this when it came out and was very unimpressed. But, a couple months ago, after listening to an interview with the the ever-amazing Steve Genewick about it, I asked for a demo reset and tried it again. I think it can take longer than most comps to dial in, but can do something pretty cool. I ended up buying it and found a setting for the master that sounds good on pretty much everything with a few attack/release and headroom tweaks. I probably wouldn't use it as an only buss compressor, but I like it before the limiter to pull mids forward and widen things a tiny bit. I am never compressing more than 0.25-0.5db on the meter, and set it so that it is doing the meter is moving, but the absolute least amount possible. When I take it off the mix sounds worse generally, so I leave it on nowadays for most mixes.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 30, 2023 15:28:17 GMT -6
I only use it on the master. Tried a bunch of plugs yesterday to match it and I still pretty much preferred it. I start by adding a console emu and EQ and get that level to where it’s peaking at 0 on a VU meter (calibrated at -14). Then I start with the Wide M/S preset or whatever. I like the m/s and attack and release settings. Then ill adjust the headroom knob to where its just tickling the mid meter but never really going over 1 db ish reduction. I’ll usually bring the side volume up a little for width. Output usually at around -13 ish lufs going into mastering stuff. Thx, jk, workin well here on my new track , remember the mono fold and shape controls for harmonics. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 30, 2023 17:08:27 GMT -6
I only use it on the master. Tried a bunch of plugs yesterday to match it and I still pretty much preferred it. I start by adding a console emu and EQ and get that level to where it’s peaking at 0 on a VU meter (calibrated at -14). Then I start with the Wide M/S preset or whatever. I like the m/s and attack and release settings. Then ill adjust the headroom knob to where its just tickling the mid meter but never really going over 1 db ish reduction. I’ll usually bring the side volume up a little for width. Output usually at around -13 ish lufs going into mastering stuff. Thx, jk, workin well here on my new track , remember the mono fold and shape controls for harmonics. Is that what the Shape control does? I figured the Mono fold was a HP filter...Guess I should read the damn manual lol. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 30, 2023 17:53:53 GMT -6
Thx, jk, workin well here on my new track , remember the mono fold and shape controls for harmonics. Is that what the Shape control does? I figured the Mono fold was a HP filter...Guess I should read the damn manual lol. Yes, described in the video demos! |
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ji43
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by ji43 on Dec 1, 2023 6:57:52 GMT -6
I demo this when it came out and was very unimpressed. But, a couple months ago, after listening to an interview with the the ever-amazing Steve Genewick about it, I asked for a demo reset and tried it again. I think it can take longer than most comps to dial in, but can do something pretty cool. I ended up buying it and found a setting for the master that sounds good on pretty much everything with a few attack/release and headroom tweaks. I probably would use it as an only buss compressor, but I like it before the limiter to pull mids forward and widen things a tiny bit. I am never compressing more than 0.25-0.5db on the meter, and set it so that it is doing the meter is moving, but the absolute least amount possible. When I take it off the mix sounds worse generally, so I leave it on nowadays for most mixes. Can you share the interview? What did he say about it? Is this plugin similar to the DDMF Magic Death Eye? |
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kojei
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by kojei on Dec 2, 2023 20:39:13 GMT -6
When running UA plugin at 384kHz, LPF is applyed about 50kHz. I don't know it is intended by UA though.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 2, 2023 20:56:38 GMT -6
When running UA plugin at 384kHz, LPF is applyed about 50kHz. I don't know it is intended by UA though. So…just for my own curiosity…why the hell runt at 384? |
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 2, 2023 21:22:45 GMT -6
When running UA plugin at 384kHz, LPF is applyed about 50kHz. I don't know it is intended by UA though. When running UA plugin at 384kHz, LPF is applyed about 50kHz. I don't know it is intended by UA though. So…just for my own curiosity…why the hell runt at 384? Yeah, I wanted to ask: "Is this something you do often?" as a totally and completely sincere question. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 2, 2023 22:06:26 GMT -6
When running UA plugin at 384kHz, LPF is applyed about 50kHz. I don't know it is intended by UA though. So…just for my own curiosity…why the hell runt at 384? Yeah, I wanted to ask: "Is this something you do often?" as a totally and completely sincere question. Not sure my i3 could handle that. |
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kojei
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by kojei on Dec 2, 2023 23:38:22 GMT -6
When running UA plugin at 384kHz, LPF is applyed about 50kHz. I don't know it is intended by UA though. So…just for my own curiosity…why the hell runt at 384? It was just for the fun because I got native UA plugins last week. Reaper has own OS for plugins up to x16, so I can run a plugin at 384kHz easily. And M1 MAX Mac has enough power for runnning it even realtime playback. |
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