ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967 
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Post by ericn on Jul 1, 2023 17:52:10 GMT -6
Besides no one is gonna give me a "serious" 251. Chris Define "serious 251" please?
Do you mean the brands that are most coveted in forums or the brands with the most overt biases demonstrated by the owners of said brand(s)? Honestly none of them standout as that much different or "better" from one and other but there is a strong waft of economic nationalism that I think is equally responsible for sellin' some mics, as is the sound quality.
And so much to do with brand fashion.
The intrigue of certain brands will see some spend a lot more money just to have it, or say they have it as opposed to the reduced carbon footprint of sourcing equally viable well built great sounding mics as local as possible. I'm not suggesting anyone interrupt the honeymoon to scratch their conscience, I'm just saying these 251's are remarkably simple microphone designs ( with 2 notable and particular exceptions) compared to many other mic designs,especially how some of the more revered builders have assembled them compared to the most accurate recreations, no matter what any of them want to claim.
As hypists, we have created an industry that is exploiting this 251 fashion for every plug nickel they can in many circumstances. Some builders still insist on building art but most seem to be rummaging through the pockets of their loyal fans.
I have to laugh at (myself) how shamelessly we willful and gleefully sign up for a gaff!
Not preaching on high, I have very expensive 251 copies and a few not so expensive copies and they are all fine and do the job to an amazingly high standard.
To me the most serious attribute of any mic is what's going in the business end of it- the source!
Yeah in all seriousness, nobody understands the dirty secret that makes builders great and expensive: we don’t know the tolerances excepted and reject rate. |
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Post by chessparov on Jul 2, 2023 2:35:30 GMT -6
Besides no one is gonna give me a "serious" 251. Chris Yes I do love quoting myself!  Just kidding around on this quoted post (once more) But other than an uber $$ original Primo 251... IMHO we're in the Golden Era of 251 style choices. Chris P.S. I find the removable head a cool idea. For the microphones that is.  |
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Post by gmichael on Jul 2, 2023 15:41:21 GMT -6
I already can't cope with this 3 year limitation. The fashion that dictates taste for so many will change so much over 3 years. We need to be prepared to hold grudges and argue relentlessly at least until the youngest of us is dead, and thereby we have a winning 251 opinion-ator . That would be like becoming a god amongst all the mere mortals that would follow and asking questions like " What the hell is a 251 anyway?"..lol
All kidding aside, I don't see this RGO251 thing as possible. One thing we rely on builders for is their tight control over the outcomes of the products bearing their names. I would not want to ask any of these folks to have to compromise anything that has led to our appreciation for their life's work.
Gumbo251 does not sound as appetising to me, but I am fond of mutt's usually.
I read the first line and just assumed it was a post by John Epstein!  lol. John has certainly evolved into a less grumpy fellow. Such a prolific source of guitar information isn't he?! |
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RGO 251
Jul 2, 2023 16:27:13 GMT -6
via mobile
ericn likes this
Post by chessparov on Jul 2, 2023 16:27:13 GMT -6
John E. is a very good hearted guy. * Of the Curmudgeonly variety. Chris *Shhh... Don't tell on me! |
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Post by gmichael on Jul 2, 2023 17:03:43 GMT -6
Define "serious 251" please?
Do you mean the brands that are most coveted in forums or the brands with the most overt biases demonstrated by the owners of said brand(s)? Honestly none of them standout as that much different or "better" from one and other but there is a strong waft of economic nationalism that I think is equally responsible for sellin' some mics, as is the sound quality.
And so much to do with brand fashion.
The intrigue of certain brands will see some spend a lot more money just to have it, or say they have it as opposed to the reduced carbon footprint of sourcing equally viable well built great sounding mics as local as possible. I'm not suggesting anyone interrupt the honeymoon to scratch their conscience, I'm just saying these 251's are remarkably simple microphone designs ( with 2 notable and particular exceptions) compared to many other mic designs,especially how some of the more revered builders have assembled them compared to the most accurate recreations, no matter what any of them want to claim.
As hypists, we have created an industry that is exploiting this 251 fashion for every plug nickel they can in many circumstances. Some builders still insist on building art but most seem to be rummaging through the pockets of their loyal fans.
I have to laugh at (myself) how shamelessly we willful and gleefully sign up for a gaff!
Not preaching on high, I have very expensive 251 copies and a few not so expensive copies and they are all fine and do the job to an amazingly high standard.
To me the most serious attribute of any mic is what's going in the business end of it- the source!
Which cheaper 251s do you have and like? A slightly modified Telefunken TF51 with a Haufe transformer and a 1961 6201 5 star GE tube. Excellent mic for hi bari's froggy tenors and altos and even certain sops and mezzo's depending on the song. It's a darker tone that I love very much and suits acoustic sources really nicely.
It has a 47 like density to the lows and a smooth very even top end with a dash a forwardness in the upper mids, making it a unique sonic interpretation of the classic.
I may one day replace the cap with a BN c12 but for now I'm very happy at what this mic offers up, as is.
It's a worthy consideration for anyone looking for a 251 style but is thinking outside the box and avoiding the 251 catwalk.
The ADK Cremona 251 FET. Another unique take on the 251, maybe less similar to my other 251's probably due to how it handles the faster transients. I bought this for practical reasons and it was a total punt as I had to buy blind, so glad I did. It's a smooth detail modern sound with a fairly dense bottom end but nothing akin to a 47 at all. It's top is remarkably smooth and it is bright but not too bright. I will be using this mostly for an omni mic recording gang vocals and choirs in a M-S setup. This mic I will definitely be modifying extensively because it has the all the right features I would look for in a candidate mic for heavy modification. Not because I don't like the sound as it is, it's a great sound but I want to experience the BN C-12 and the BN transformer in this style of microphone. It cost me next to nothing on sale so I have near zero risk in seeing what this already fantastic sounding mic might be with a few tweaks to give it it's own identity, and hopefully retain the 3 polar pattern flex, which is another unique attribute a vintage 251 style mic won't offer from any builder that I know of.
On the capsule, so much is about how each builder hears things, so far what I hear, Ben has a great ear for a C12 type capsule and I'd like to be more first hand familiar with that tuning!
Neither mic breaks the bank nor do either attempt futility by trying to be anything other than what they are and what they do they do very very well. Both microphones are aesthetically well presented and their form actually kind of reflects the sound that comes out of them, if that makes sense.
In addition to so many builders getting in on the vintage replication game, these few inspired by and inspiring mics to use risk no financial misadventure in the pursuit of characteristics of a smooth topped big bottom end sound associated with the 251 nomenclature.
* The ADK mic comes with a logo badge that is made of soft rubber and it had some gooey goopey adhesive and I wound up taking the badge off cuz it kept sliding around on the mic body and am trying to find an appropriate adhesive to reaffix. I do not like cheap rubbery badges one bit,it's my stand out complaint about the ADK. Builders considering cheap rubbery badges for your products...consider something better its a terrible decision. Great mic, lousy goopy badge
* The Telefunken hard plastic badge fell off and became lost while I was working in a commercial studio and we could not find it. The amount of information requested by Telefunken in order to arrange a replacement really encroached on privacy invasion. I am not fond of their business behaviour in this regard. I did manage to get a replacement on the way but not before revealing all my personal details in addition to invoices receipts and THEN be told they would sent the badge to my distributor.. After collecting all my personal data?...it won't happen again. This single act may be reason enough for me to never buy from TF ever again. I don't appreciate passive aggressive bullying tactics and I'm certainly not going to accept it as normal from someone selling me stuff. Absolutely no justification for treating customers in this way and any excuse made by them is pure bullshit.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
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Post by ericn on Jul 2, 2023 18:07:04 GMT -6
Which cheaper 251s do you have and like? A slightly modified Telefunken TF51 with a Haufe transformer and a 1961 6201 5 star GE tube. Excellent mic for hi bari's froggy tenors and altos and even certain sops and mezzo's depending on the song. It's a darker tone that I love very much and suits acoustic sources really nicely.
It has a 47 like density to the lows and a smooth very even top end with a dash a forwardness in the upper mids, making it a unique sonic interpretation of the classic.
I may one day replace the cap with a BN c12 but for now I'm very happy at what this mic offers up, as is.
It's a worthy consideration for anyone looking for a 251 style but is thinking outside the box and avoiding the 251 catwalk.
The ADK Cremona 251 FET. Another unique take on the 251, maybe less similar to my other 251's probably due to how it handles the faster transients. I bought this for practical reasons and it was a total punt as I had to buy blind, so glad I did. It's a smooth detail modern sound with a fairly dense bottom end but nothing akin to a 47 at all. It's top is remarkably smooth and it is bright but not too bright. I will be using this mostly for an omni mic recording gang vocals and choirs in a M-S setup. This mic I will definitely be modifying extensively because it has the all the right features I would look for in a candidate mic for heavy modification. Not because I don't like the sound as it is, it's a great sound but I want to experience the BN C-12 and the BN transformer in this style of microphone. It cost me next to nothing on sale so I have near zero risk in seeing what this already fantastic sounding mic might be with a few tweaks to give it it's own identity, and hopefully retain the 3 polar pattern flex, which is another unique attribute a vintage 251 style mic won't offer from any builder that I know of.
On the capsule, so much is about how each builder hears things, so far what I hear, Ben has a great ear for a C12 type capsule and I'd like to be more first hand familiar with that tuning!
Neither mic breaks the bank nor do either attempt futility by trying to be anything other than what they are and what they do they do very very well. Both microphones are aesthetically well presented and their form actually kind of reflects the sound that comes out of them, if that makes sense.
In addition to so many builders getting in on the vintage replication game, these few inspired by and inspiring mics to use risk no financial misadventure in the pursuit of characteristics of a smooth topped big bottom end sound associated with the 251 nomenclature.
* The ADK mic comes with a logo badge that is made of soft rubber and it had some gooey goopey adhesive and I wound up taking the badge off cuz it kept sliding around on the mic body and am trying to find an appropriate adhesive to reaffix. I do not like cheap rubbery badges one bit,it's my stand out complaint about the ADK. Builders considering cheap rubbery badges for your products...consider something better its a terrible decision. Great mic, lousy goopy badge
* The Telefunken hard plastic badge fell off and became lost while I was working in a commercial studio and we could not find it. The amount of information requested by Telefunken in order to arrange a replacement really encroached on privacy invasion. I am not fond of their business behaviour in this regard. I did manage to get a replacement on the way but not before revealing all my personal details in addition to invoices receipts and THEN be told they would sent the badge to my distributor.. After collecting all my personal data?...it won't happen again. This single act may be reason enough for me to never buy from TF ever again. I don't appreciate passive aggressive bullying tactics and I'm certainly not going to accept it as normal from someone selling me stuff. Absolutely no justification for treating customers in this way and any excuse made by them is pure bullshit.
Well if you lose another TF badge there is a guy on eBay selling copies for $7 and no probulator! |
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Post by wiz on Jul 2, 2023 23:48:24 GMT -6
Thanks for the info Gene
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 3, 2023 7:29:38 GMT -6
For something like this to work you really need a builder; someone like Chad from Signal Arts, etc, to actually build the microphone for us. As has already been mentioned, the heart of a mic build is the capsule, and the CK12 capsule is very specific. The cheaper capsules just don't sound the same. Tim has a ton of OEM orders and hasn't had enough capsules for the DIY community. Heiserman CK12 is also unavailable these days. Beesneez is an option if everyone can agree on it. Beesneez also has a nice 251 style body too. What's important is having someone who actually knows how to build the microphone, unless the plan is for a DIY kit. I know not everyone on here is a DIY guy. I know I'm not.
Another thought would just be to ask an established builder for an RGO group buy special. Either way I imagine there would be a decent waiting period. That said, if you price it right, it might bring in a decent number of orders.
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Post by gmichael on Jul 3, 2023 16:14:02 GMT -6
Define "serious 251" please?
Do you mean the brands that are most coveted in forums or the brands with the most overt biases demonstrated by the owners of said brand(s)? Honestly none of them standout as that much different or "better" from one and other but there is a strong waft of economic nationalism that I think is equally responsible for sellin' some mics, as is the sound quality.
And so much to do with brand fashion.
The intrigue of certain brands will see some spend a lot more money just to have it, or say they have it as opposed to the reduced carbon footprint of sourcing equally viable well built great sounding mics as local as possible. I'm not suggesting anyone interrupt the honeymoon to scratch their conscience, I'm just saying these 251's are remarkably simple microphone designs ( with 2 notable and particular exceptions) compared to many other mic designs,especially how some of the more revered builders have assembled them compared to the most accurate recreations, no matter what any of them want to claim.
As hypists, we have created an industry that is exploiting this 251 fashion for every plug nickel they can in many circumstances. Some builders still insist on building art but most seem to be rummaging through the pockets of their loyal fans.
I have to laugh at (myself) how shamelessly we willful and gleefully sign up for a gaff!
Not preaching on high, I have very expensive 251 copies and a few not so expensive copies and they are all fine and do the job to an amazingly high standard.
To me the most serious attribute of any mic is what's going in the business end of it- the source!
Yeah in all seriousness, nobody understands the dirty secret that makes builders great and expensive: we don’t know the tolerances excepted and reject rate. Can't ignore the main draw card for buying extremely high priced boutique microphones or anything for that matter, the flex culture and adoration of wealth. The American builders know better than most how to create and exploit this for everything that can be squeezed out of a buyer.
It's a business tactic that is proven successful over and over again for centuries. Just the dollar sign attached to a purchase has a major factor on what we perceive we hear.
There are actually no dirty little secrets.
There are aspects of the formula we choose to ignore or make excuses for because it aligns with our adoration of wealth that we are sold to believe in.
It branches off into fears, the fears of not having the most coveted most expensive and being seen as a lesser or unworthy to any claim of "high end". It's ludicrous, we actually will pit ourselves against each other defending or debating the merits of being gouged, which distracts us from the how simple much of this is, especially with very old technology recreated using better components that present arguably a better sounding product, but alas someone will vehemently state it "pales in comparison" to the vintage, which is also nonsense to rationalise extravagant spending and all in the pursuit of status. We are all here now and we have what we have to make what we need and want.
To me, through all the mic trends and fashions I personally have experienced and fallen prey to, this whole 251 thing is embarrassing, myself included.
Otherwise intelligent people choosing to overlook the most pertinent facts in front of the them for the sake of vanity and flex status. It's like footnotes out of how to successfully organise a religion and exploit people for their moment of weakness or fears or in search of anything to offset hideous life changing tragedy that can't be comprehended.
Access peoples fears and vanity and you can charge whatever you want, shamelessly. Fear of not having, fear of not belonging, fear of not having an answer, fear of unknown, fears that separate us from our critical thinking abilities to make decisions that are often in the interests of those people or entities who knowingly exploit people for profit or power and help rebuild them as a disciple of whatever distracts them from truth and dedicates them to an inserted narrative regardless of how absurd it may be. Because it's easy to do and it's often conveniences and accomodates the fears people live or inserts an explanation for the nightmares they must be able to explain away.
The matter of how microphones are priced is connected to well oiled ancient practices, it's no mystery at all dude. As long as people/entities have victims to access, predators will find an angle to exploit that. In that regard, we are all potential victims waiting to happen and often we pose little resistance and just pay up, sacrifice or commit to purchases and lifestyle choices that are rarely in our own best interests. Show a company or a predator your weaknesses and I guarantee a " just what you need" solution is on it's way, custom fitted to the weakness and fear displayed.
Retailism is very much a cult not unlike religions ( I'm not talking about spirituality). We ignore too much to sacrifice so much of ourselves to accept so little in return.
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Post by mics on Jul 3, 2023 19:48:41 GMT -6
You guys could all do something way more fun than a 251. You could crowd fund the ultimate mic. you can be a voice in it's creation and the beta testers once it's made. a manufacturer could listen to your desires, discuss design and deliver in a limited edition colour at an unbelievable price. the model can then be released as a model for the manufacturer and everyone is happy.
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Post by gmichael on Jul 3, 2023 20:28:46 GMT -6
You guys could all do something way more fun than a 251. You could crowd fund the ultimate mic. you can be a voice in it's creation and the beta testers once it's made. a manufacturer could listen to your desires, discuss design and deliver in a limited edition colour at an unbelievable price. the model can then be released as a model for the manufacturer and everyone is happy. Do you mean like a 2567 or an 8749?
I'm so into a group of renegades going off the well travelled path and making something uniquely unto itself! FTR, I'm not a diy guy, am more likely to hurt myself with a soldering iron, I really like the idea of a builder making something truly boutique based on a public community rubbing heads together and dreaming outloud. Funtastic idea Mr/Ms Mics!
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Post by mics on Jul 3, 2023 20:36:47 GMT -6
You guys could all do something way more fun than a 251. You could crowd fund the ultimate mic. you can be a voice in it's creation and the beta testers once it's made. a manufacturer could listen to your desires, discuss design and deliver in a limited edition colour at an unbelievable price. the model can then be released as a model for the manufacturer and everyone is happy. Do you mean like a 2567 or an 8749?
I'm so into a group of renegades going off the well travelled path and making something uniquely unto itself! FTR, I'm not a diy guy, am more likely to hurt myself with a soldering iron, I really like the idea of a builder making something truly boutique based on a public community rubbing heads together and dreaming outloud. Funtastic idea Mr/Ms Mics!
I was thinking more of a 122514749678789. multiple tubes, brand new innovative capsule design with multiple voicing, multiple transformers and an SLR like approach to capturing the perfect audio.
"One Mic, Endless possibilities"!
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Post by gmichael on Jul 3, 2023 21:22:14 GMT -6
Do you mean like a 2567 or an 8749?
I'm so into a group of renegades going off the well travelled path and making something uniquely unto itself! FTR, I'm not a diy guy, am more likely to hurt myself with a soldering iron, I really like the idea of a builder making something truly boutique based on a public community rubbing heads together and dreaming outloud. Funtastic idea Mr/Ms Mics!
I was thinking more of a 122514749678789. multiple tubes, brand new innovative capsule design with multiple voicing, multiple transformers and an SLR like approach to capturing the perfect audio.
"One Mic, Endless possibilities"!
lol. I just laughed 2 minute noodles up my nose..!! hilarious! |
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Post by mics on Jul 3, 2023 21:50:15 GMT -6
It can be done. It'll have some knobs that's for sure and it might be a bit scary looking but it can be done! SLR camera have so many functions to ensure the perfect settings that the photographer desires. Why not the same for microphones? Sadly, mic's seem to be stuck in an archaic past that is like an ice cream cone; one flavour and that's it.
Imagine if the paparazzi had to carry 12 different cameras just in case the lighting was dim or there were too many shadows.
I feel that this market due to it's smaller size, has been a bit left behind and the dollars simply aren't there for the R'N'D. There are so many ways to control the sonics of a microphone. Let's face it, an audio picture isn't much different that a visual picture, so why are the tools for capture so far behind the times?
What can be controlled in a mic?
Variable high and Low pass
High filters
Harmonic content
Capsule frequency response and Pattern
Capsule polarisation voltage can also be variable
Tube type and Style ie; Metal tube and Glass tube
Tube bias and cathode bypass style.
Transformer type and Style ie; Torroid or ui core. Single spool or humbucking.
Tertiary feedbacks or class A design
Decoupling capacitor ie; Paper in oil, Film, Coltant.
All of these functions could be controlled on "one Mic" and it then starts to be like an audio SLR. Imagine all of that and more in "One Mic"
I have been dreaming up a mic like this for many years. It can be done but would take time and funding.
(don't worry, I'm not at all afraid of others seeing this post and trying to implement these functions as most wouldn't know how or perhaps wouldn't have the machinery at their disposal to do it and others that could would have a board to convince and most boards are stuck in the box)
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Post by wiz on Jul 3, 2023 22:44:32 GMT -6
I like where this going
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Post by wiz on Jul 3, 2023 22:44:49 GMT -6
I love variable patterns
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Post by mics on Jul 3, 2023 23:12:10 GMT -6
Yeah in all seriousness, nobody understands the dirty secret that makes builders great and expensive: we don’t know the tolerances excepted and reject rate. Can't ignore the main draw card for buying extremely high priced boutique microphones or anything for that matter, the flex culture and adoration of wealth. The American builders know better than most how to create and exploit this for everything that can be squeezed out of a buyer.
It's a business tactic that is proven successful over and over again for centuries. Just the dollar sign attached to a purchase has a major factor on what we perceive we hear.
There are actually no dirty little secrets.
There are aspects of the formula we choose to ignore or make excuses for because it aligns with our adoration of wealth that we are sold to believe in.
It branches off into fears, the fears of not having the most coveted most expensive and being seen as a lesser or unworthy to any claim of "high end". It's ludicrous, we actually will pit ourselves against each other defending or debating the merits of being gouged, which distracts us from the how simple much of this is, especially with very old technology recreated using better components that present arguably a better sounding product, but alas someone will vehemently state it "pales in comparison" to the vintage, which is also nonsense to rationalise extravagant spending and all in the pursuit of status. We are all here now and we have what we have to make what we need and want.
To me, through all the mic trends and fashions I personally have experienced and fallen prey to, this whole 251 thing is embarrassing, myself included.
Otherwise intelligent people choosing to overlook the most pertinent facts in front of the them for the sake of vanity and flex status. It's like footnotes out of how to successfully organise a religion and exploit people for their moment of weakness or fears or in search of anything to offset hideous life changing tragedy that can't be comprehended.
Access peoples fears and vanity and you can charge whatever you want, shamelessly. Fear of not having, fear of not belonging, fear of not having an answer, fear of unknown, fears that separate us from our critical thinking abilities to make decisions that are often in the interests of those people or entities who knowingly exploit people for profit or power and help rebuild them as a disciple of whatever distracts them from truth and dedicates them to an inserted narrative regardless of how absurd it may be. Because it's easy to do and it's often conveniences and accomodates the fears people live or inserts an explanation for the nightmares they must be able to explain away.
The matter of how microphones are priced is connected to well oiled ancient practices, it's no mystery at all dude. As long as people/entities have victims to access, predators will find an angle to exploit that. In that regard, we are all potential victims waiting to happen and often we pose little resistance and just pay up, sacrifice or commit to purchases and lifestyle choices that are rarely in our own best interests. Show a company or a predator your weaknesses and I guarantee a " just what you need" solution is on it's way, custom fitted to the weakness and fear displayed.
Retailism is very much a cult not unlike religions ( I'm not talking about spirituality). We ignore too much to sacrifice so much of ourselves to accept so little in return.
As someone with a foot in the game, I feel I understand exactly what you mean.
It's only good if it is expensive!! This is an age old adage that will not easily if ever be debunked. let's look at it form my perspective; We have been around for 20 years making mics and mic parts. Wehave the know how, experience and ear to make great mics. We sell mics at a lower cost than others so that must mean (following the status quo) that our parts and mics aren't as good as the others because they are 1/ available, 2/ not as expensive.
Our industry seems to have evolved into something like this;
Not available for 6-12 months means super awesome.
Pay upfront for a 10-20% discount with a 6 month wait means the manufacturer is super generous and we're getting a killer deal
If we can't tell in a blind shoot out, which mic was more expensive then we must have crap monitors and need to upgrade them too!
If the right plastic, Brass, Bronze and switching isn't used then they are just cheap junky knock off's
If we don't use the exact same tube and components then it is impossible for it to even sound similar
To put it all in a Discussion
"I bought this amazing pro audio gear the other day"! said Jim. "How does it sound"? mike asked. "I dunno, haven't heard it yet but the company is amazing. I should get it in about 6 - 12 months as long as I don't miss the email when they message me" said Jim. "whoa; that sounds amazing. It's so good that they are so busy and have such a huge waiting list" exclaimed Mike. "Didi it cost much"? continued Mike; "it was so expensive. I thought I was going to need to sell my Kidney but they came through with an amazing offer"! excitedly remarked Jim. "what was it"? asked Mike. (by this time, Mike could barely breath in anticipation). "They told me that if I was willing to wait a little longer than some others, they would give me an extra 10% off, I couldn't believe my ears, these guys are amazing"! stated Jim. "Struth, strike a light; these guys are the bomb. How do they do it? How can they make these things at such a good price"? asked Mike. "oh it's easy, they just shop around and find the most amazing manufacturing partners at the most amazing prices to help. Most of them are ex aerospace and really know their stuff" said Jim.
I could go on forever........ feel free to continue the story. lol
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Post by gmichael on Jul 4, 2023 3:15:16 GMT -6
Can't ignore the main draw card for buying extremely high priced boutique microphones or anything for that matter, the flex culture and adoration of wealth. The American builders know better than most how to create and exploit this for everything that can be squeezed out of a buyer.
It's a business tactic that is proven successful over and over again for centuries. Just the dollar sign attached to a purchase has a major factor on what we perceive we hear.
There are actually no dirty little secrets.
There are aspects of the formula we choose to ignore or make excuses for because it aligns with our adoration of wealth that we are sold to believe in.
It branches off into fears, the fears of not having the most coveted most expensive and being seen as a lesser or unworthy to any claim of "high end". It's ludicrous, we actually will pit ourselves against each other defending or debating the merits of being gouged, which distracts us from the how simple much of this is, especially with very old technology recreated using better components that present arguably a better sounding product, but alas someone will vehemently state it "pales in comparison" to the vintage, which is also nonsense to rationalise extravagant spending and all in the pursuit of status. We are all here now and we have what we have to make what we need and want.
To me, through all the mic trends and fashions I personally have experienced and fallen prey to, this whole 251 thing is embarrassing, myself included.
Otherwise intelligent people choosing to overlook the most pertinent facts in front of the them for the sake of vanity and flex status. It's like footnotes out of how to successfully organise a religion and exploit people for their moment of weakness or fears or in search of anything to offset hideous life changing tragedy that can't be comprehended.
Access peoples fears and vanity and you can charge whatever you want, shamelessly. Fear of not having, fear of not belonging, fear of not having an answer, fear of unknown, fears that separate us from our critical thinking abilities to make decisions that are often in the interests of those people or entities who knowingly exploit people for profit or power and help rebuild them as a disciple of whatever distracts them from truth and dedicates them to an inserted narrative regardless of how absurd it may be. Because it's easy to do and it's often conveniences and accomodates the fears people live or inserts an explanation for the nightmares they must be able to explain away.
The matter of how microphones are priced is connected to well oiled ancient practices, it's no mystery at all dude. As long as people/entities have victims to access, predators will find an angle to exploit that. In that regard, we are all potential victims waiting to happen and often we pose little resistance and just pay up, sacrifice or commit to purchases and lifestyle choices that are rarely in our own best interests. Show a company or a predator your weaknesses and I guarantee a " just what you need" solution is on it's way, custom fitted to the weakness and fear displayed.
Retailism is very much a cult not unlike religions ( I'm not talking about spirituality). We ignore too much to sacrifice so much of ourselves to accept so little in return.
As someone with a foot in the game, I feel I understand exactly what you mean.
It's only good if it is expensive!! This is an age old adage that will not easily if ever be debunked. let's look at it form my perspective; We have been around for 20 years making mics and mic parts. Wehave the know how, experience and ear to make great mics. We sell mics at a lower cost than others so that must mean (following the status quo) that our parts and mics aren't as good as the others because they are 1/ available, 2/ not as expensive.
Our industry seems to have evolved into something like this;
Not available for 6-12 months means super awesome.
Pay upfront for a 10-20% discount with a 6 month wait means the manufacturer is super generous and we're getting a killer deal
If we can't tell in a blind shoot out, which mic was more expensive then we must have crap monitors and need to upgrade them too!
If the right plastic, Brass, Bronze and switching isn't used then they are just cheap junky knock off's
If we don't use the exact same tube and components then it is impossible for it to even sound similar
To put it all in a Discussion
"I bought this amazing pro audio gear the other day"! said Jim. "How does it sound"? mike asked. "I dunno, haven't heard it yet but the company is amazing. I should get it in about 6 - 12 months as long as I don't miss the email when they message me" said Jim. "whoa; that sounds amazing. It's so good that they are so busy and have such a huge waiting list" exclaimed Mike. "Didi it cost much"? continued Mike; "it was so expensive. I thought I was going to need to sell my Kidney but they came through with an amazing offer"! excitedly remarked Jim. "what was it"? asked Mike. (by this time, Mike could barely breath in anticipation). "They told me that if I was willing to wait a little longer than some others, they would give me an extra 10% off, I couldn't believe my ears, these guys are amazing"! stated Jim. "Struth, strike a light; these guys are the bomb. How do they do it? How can they make these things at such a good price"? asked Mike. "oh it's easy, they just shop around and find the most amazing manufacturing partners at the most amazing prices to help. Most of them are ex aerospace and really know their stuff" said Jim.
I could go on forever........ feel free to continue the story. lol
Awesome. It's really healthy every now and then to have a stiff shot of reality cross the bow.. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 5, 2023 8:01:18 GMT -6
It can be done. It'll have some knobs that's for sure and it might be a bit scary looking but it can be done! SLR camera have so many functions to ensure the perfect settings that the photographer desires. Why not the same for microphones? Sadly, mic's seem to be stuck in an archaic past that is like an ice cream cone; one flavour and that's it. Imagine if the paparazzi had to carry 12 different cameras just in case the lighting was dim or there were too many shadows. I feel that this market due to it's smaller size, has been a bit left behind and the dollars simply aren't there for the R'N'D. There are so many ways to control the sonics of a microphone. Let's face it, an audio picture isn't much different that a visual picture, so why are the tools for capture so far behind the times? What can be controlled in a mic? Variable high and Low pass High filters Harmonic content Capsule frequency response and Pattern Capsule polarisation voltage can also be variable Tube type and Style ie; Metal tube and Glass tube Tube bias and cathode bypass style. Transformer type and Style ie; Torroid or ui core. Single spool or humbucking. Tertiary feedbacks or class A design Decoupling capacitor ie; Paper in oil, Film, Coltant. All of these functions could be controlled on "one Mic" and it then starts to be like an audio SLR. Imagine all of that and more in "One Mic" I have been dreaming up a mic like this for many years. It can be done but would take time and funding. (don't worry, I'm not at all afraid of others seeing this post and trying to implement these functions as most wouldn't know how or perhaps wouldn't have the machinery at their disposal to do it and others that could would have a board to convince and most boards are stuck in the box) After playing around with all of the sonic options your BU67 has to offer I fully believe you could do something similar with a 251 design that would make a lot of people happy. |
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Post by mics on Jul 5, 2023 17:39:38 GMT -6
Hmmmm, I’m sure I could!
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Post by paulcheeba on Jul 6, 2023 16:58:01 GMT -6
There is a 251 body on Aliexpress that gets a rave review on Group DIY. It’s surprisingly sturdy.
I cancelled my Upton pair as I would rather custom build a pair experimenting along the way and not paint myself into a corner. Space for bigger transformers etc. is what I want. I have ordered Ben’s CK12’s too.
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RGO 251
Jul 6, 2023 17:44:53 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 6, 2023 17:44:53 GMT -6
There is a 251 body on Aliexpress that gets a rave review on Group DIY. It’s surprisingly sturdy. I cancelled my Upton pair as I would rather custom build a pair experimenting along the way and not paint myself into a corner. Space for bigger transformers etc. is what I want. I have ordered Ben’s CK12’s too. Link? |
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Post by gmichael on Jul 6, 2023 17:54:33 GMT -6
There is a 251 body on Aliexpress that gets a rave review on Group DIY. It’s surprisingly sturdy. I cancelled my Upton pair as I would rather custom build a pair experimenting along the way and not paint myself into a corner. Space for bigger transformers etc. is what I want. I have ordered Ben’s CK12’s too. I'm with you on this! I'm very intrigued by the FAB tranny and it requires more space than a Haufe or typical sized tranny, but is more readily available.
I'm this close to buying a multi pattern tube version of Ben's CK 12, I just have to finish a kitchen renovation before I am allowed to purchase any more equipment! But because the domestic order to finish the kitchen leaves a loophole for maintaining existing equipment, I might replace one of
my on hand 251 mics that I kind of bought with a mod in mind if I ever felt so inclined. I do really want to experience the BeesNeez CK12 capsule after such glowing reviews from folks I know and trust their opinions on mics.
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RGO 251
Jul 6, 2023 19:12:45 GMT -6
Post by paulcheeba on Jul 6, 2023 19:12:45 GMT -6
There is a 251 body on Aliexpress that gets a rave review on Group DIY. It’s surprisingly sturdy. I cancelled my Upton pair as I would rather custom build a pair experimenting along the way and not paint myself into a corner. Space for bigger transformers etc. is what I want. I have ordered Ben’s CK12’s too. Link? |
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Post by mics on Jul 7, 2023 0:37:43 GMT -6
What about this one without the badge?  |
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lol. John has certainly evolved into a less grumpy fellow. Such a prolific source of guitar information isn't he?!
