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Post by thehightenor on Jun 26, 2023 5:08:41 GMT -6
I've been PC in the studio since the days of Windows 3.1 !! I have an iMac in my office, a Macbook Air for recording live gigs with my X32 desk and also writing lyrics and a lovely iPad Pro M1 .... oh an an iPhone 11 - so I do love Apple devices especially (so far) in reference to lifestyle type use. In the studio I use Cubase Pro 12 and lot's of VI's. SD3 (big libraries lot's of voices) Kontakt with big Spitfire Audio string libraries Kontaky with Orange Tree Sample libraries Ivory Piano Omnisphere Keyscape U-he synths Softube synths Fairy big VI arrangements. Then the usual 48 tracks of audio, vocals, guitars, percussion, bass etc. I turn my VI's to audio for mixing and then I mix with a whole heap of plugins and hardware on the mix bus. 24 bit/ 48KHz. So that's my shtick, my workflow. I need a new computer, my PC is 9 years old (4th gen intel Windows 10) Windows 11 is a mess! Steinberg recommend avoiding Intel 13th gen CPU's as there's a known issue with P and E cores causing drop outs!! I can feel there's a shift happening with PC users to Mac. The new M2 systems are obviously very fast and powerful. Only problem guys, I'm flippin' completely lost. Where do I start (obvious .... my lovely friendly Mac using friends on Realgearonline  ) My worries are storage speed. On a new PC I can have 3 internal m.2 blades serving up my libraries at 7000MB/s on a new Mac I'll need external storage for libraries and recording audio as internal Mac storage is limited to 1 drive and the larger drives are CRAZY expensive. So if I get an external m.2 drive enclosure running over Thunderbolt like a Sonnet will it load my libraries fast! Finally, which machine to go for. Studio M2 Max? Studio M2 Ultra? MacBook Pro 14" M2 Max? Using a laptop instead of a desktop seems to be the new trend for a silent studio system and then I'll add a Dell 24" screen. Studio M2 Max, 64GB RAM 1TB SSD and then external drives for libraries and audio? Or maybe better a Macbook Pro laptop? Is the Studio M2 Ultra a waste of money if I don't do video? Do Studio M2's still make the whining noise I keep reading about? Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated :-) |
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Post by reddirt on Jun 26, 2023 6:38:53 GMT -6
If it means anything, I saw a Youtube vid where the host specifically looked for whine and any other noise with the M2 Ultra and found it to be a total non issue on his machine - he did measure db evels and also compared to the M1 Max ; sorry I haven't a link but he concluded that Mac have addressed any issues in the M2 release.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 26, 2023 8:08:35 GMT -6
If it means anything, I saw a Youtube vid where the host specifically looked for whine and any other noise with the M2 Ultra and found it to be a total non issue on his machine - he did measure db evels and also compared to the M1 Max ; sorry I haven't a link but he concluded that Mac have addressed any issues in the M2 release. Cheers, Ross Thank you - that's very helpful feedback. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 26, 2023 8:09:06 GMT -6
With those specs, you really shouldn’t have any problems.
I think an nvme drive could be fastest, but i’d try the stock m2 first and see if you have a speed problem first.
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Post by svart on Jun 26, 2023 8:15:36 GMT -6
Just disable E cores in bios. Problem solved.
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Post by bradd on Jun 26, 2023 9:24:54 GMT -6
I'll offer a different perspective. I'm a Mac user on Logic, but if I was using Cubase, I'd stick to PC. It has always been a PC first, Mac second platform.
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Post by niklas1073 on Jun 26, 2023 9:47:43 GMT -6
Id say mac book pro M2max (or wait maybe 6months for the M3 if not in hurry, shouldn’t make any difference in the long run though). The laptop also will give u the possibility to mix where ever u r if you go itb and phones. Regarding video, I do video with m1 max mac book pro no issues. When u get used to a 14” screen it’s easily workable. I went from 3 big screens to only working on my 14” laptop and got fast used to it. Gave space for more outboard on my studio desk 😜
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2023 10:06:05 GMT -6
I've had an M1 Max MacBook for a year and a Mac Studio Ultra for nearly that long. The MacBook is for out-of-the-studio stuff and the Studio runs my, er, studio. They are both really, really quiet. My Intel Mac was banished to a machine room (glorified closet) because it was so loud. It's gone now. My I9 MacBook (also gone) spun up like a hovercraft for even menial work. The Studio sits right beside me. One of the advantages of the Ultra is that the internal bus is twice as fast as the Max. I think that holds true on the M2, although they're faster still. The faster bus means you get stuff in and out of the processor much quicker. That means more tracks and plugins. I've got my instrument libraries in external M.2 enclosures from Sonnet. There's a little bit of cable fiddling to get everything laid out, but that's mainly a one-time effort.
I'm quite happy with this setup. It is a very fast machine and should give me many years of work.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2023 10:34:21 GMT -6
Your issue is Cubase more than mac or pc. Mac will also have the optimization issues because the arm CPUs Apple is using now have both power and efficiency cores too. Steinberg hasn’t optimized it and is traditionally pc focused.
I would build or commission a new daw pc or get a Mac mini with maximum ram, m2 pro, a 1 tb or so internal ssd for the os, and an external thunderbolt chassis for ssds for your libraries, maybe an ssd work disk for your projects, and hard drives for backup.
Mac Studio and Mac Pro are stupid expensive for their lack of power and upgradability vs a windows desktop. Double the price of the mini. In 5 years you can always get a new mini! If you go the Windows PC route, you can just upgrade parts.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 26, 2023 10:42:06 GMT -6
Depending on budget I would say a specced out Mini would probably do you fine. The new top-end mini finally has a reasonable number of ports. Studio even better if you can afford it. But, for me, I would steer clear of laptop unless you specifically need the portability cuz you'll end up in dongle hell really quickly.
This is based on personal preferences of course. I HATE dongles and hubs. Ugly and they always seem to cause trouble/fail.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 26, 2023 12:55:36 GMT -6
Just disable E cores in bios. Problem solved. The company that builds my PC workstations have told me it will have a significant impact of the performance of the 13900K if I do that. One option is a get a Ryzen 7950x based PC workstation (by the same established company) this has no issues with Cubase. One attraction of the Ryzen motherboard it comes with is the NVME drive slots are generation 5.0 and can transfer DATE from drives at up to 16GB/s !!! It would mean my sample libraries would load up almost like switching TV channels!! This is the only aspect about the Mac Studio I have an issue with. There's no way I can afford an 8TB internal SSD not at $2000+ cost! which means I'd be reliant on external nvme drive docks like a Sonnet and swish as they are, they only achieve speeds around 1500MB/s which is way, way slower than 16GB/s So at this point I'm totally unsure which way to roll. The Apple Studio looks to be elegant and powerful. Ryzen 7950x is quite powerful and would allow for blisteringly fast VI load times. Intel v13th gen - currently a non starter. Perhaps, as pointed out as a Cubase Pro 12 user I'm best staying on Windows but going Ryzen. Mmmh - too many workable choices. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 26, 2023 12:58:46 GMT -6
Your issue is Cubase more than mac or pc. Mac will also have the optimization issues because the arm CPUs Apple is using now have both power and efficiency cores too. Steinberg hasn’t optimized it and is traditionally pc focused. I would build or commission a new daw pc or get a Mac mini with maximum ram, m2 pro, a 1 tb or so internal ssd for the os, and an external thunderbolt chassis for ssds for your libraries, maybe an ssd work disk for your projects, and hard drives for backup. Mac Studio and Mac Pro are stupid expensive for their lack of power and upgradability vs a windows desktop. Double the price of the mini. In 5 years you can always get a new mini! If you go the Windows PC route, you can just upgrade parts. Good point Dan about Cubase. Ryzen has no E cores - thus it's current compatibility with Cubase. Odd situation really Cubase not working with Intel. Duh. |
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Post by svart on Jun 26, 2023 13:30:55 GMT -6
Just disable E cores in bios. Problem solved. The company that builds my PC workstations have told me it will have a significant impact of the performance of the 13900K if I do that. One option is a get a Ryzen 7950x based PC workstation (by the same established company) this has no issues with Cubase. One attraction of the Ryzen motherboard it comes with is the NVME drive slots are generation 5.0 and can transfer DATE from drives at up to 16GB/s !!! It would mean my sample libraries would load up almost like switching TV channels!! This is the only aspect about the Mac Studio I have an issue with. There's no way I can afford an 8TB internal SSD not at $2000+ cost! which means I'd be reliant on external nvme drive docks like a Sonnet and swish as they are, they only achieve speeds around 1500MB/s which is way, way slower than 16GB/s So at this point I'm totally unsure which way to roll. The Apple Studio looks to be elegant and powerful. Ryzen 7950x is quite powerful and would allow for blisteringly fast VI load times. Intel v13th gen - currently a non starter. Perhaps, as pointed out as a Cubase Pro 12 user I'm best staying on Windows but going Ryzen. Mmmh - too many workable choices. I have a 12700K in one machine and I had an issue with stuttering in video editing software as well as some games. I turned off E cores to solve it. I never noticed any problems after that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2023 14:22:08 GMT -6
which means I'd be reliant on external nvme drive docks like a Sonnet and swish as they are, they only achieve speeds around 1500MB/s which is way, way slower than 16GB/s Just double-checked on mine with Blackmagic Disk Speed Test. My Sonnets are set up as RAID-0. On two different enclosures I just now measured 2389 R/ 2348 W and 2400 R/ 2319 W. With RAID-0 you have to have a good backup plan, but you should have that anyway. They're plenty fast for virtual instrument libraries, big sessions and so on. |
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Post by popmann on Jun 28, 2023 18:16:47 GMT -6
Just disable E cores in bios. Problem solved. One attraction of the Ryzen motherboard it comes with is the NVME drive slots are generation 5.0 and can transfer DATE from drives at up to 16GB/s !!! It would mean my sample libraries would load up almost like switching TV channels!! Dont count onit. They tend to use compression to store the samples, meaning the CPU is the bottleneck. Also unless you can lower the amount it buffers, the raw speed isnt going to help load as much as you think. Things that dont, like Ivory, load a 45gb single piano sample in under a 1second from my now old nvme Drive or 1.5sec from a SATA SSD. SD3 will take 10-30seconds to load a 7gb drum kit. Due to them having BOTH issues of not optimizing the load amount AND having to decompress from disk. Kontakt falls in between, becuase you can set it to the smallest buffer….but the NI “lossless compression” is a bottlneck—and not defeatable without hacking to allow resaving encrypted libraries as new NOT encrypted ones. That f’n Embertone Steinway is SO slow….i wish it didnt play and sound so wonderful! Just saying. Have fun with the new box. If you're going from rust drives to fast nvme, it will be night and day….but, if you're going from fast SATA SSDs, its fairly trivial in the real world of sample loading. Unfortunately. Ive actually bought some spare SATA SSDs to offload anything that wont optimize for screamo storage. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 29, 2023 0:58:24 GMT -6
One attraction of the Ryzen motherboard it comes with is the NVME drive slots are generation 5.0 and can transfer DATE from drives at up to 16GB/s !!! It would mean my sample libraries would load up almost like switching TV channels!! Dont count onit. They tend to use compression to store the samples, meaning the CPU is the bottleneck. Also unless you can lower the amount it buffers, the raw speed isnt going to help load as much as you think. Things that dont, like Ivory, load a 45gb single piano sample in under a 1second from my now old nvme Drive or 1.5sec from a SATA SSD. SD3 will take 10-30seconds to load a 7gb drum kit. Due to them having BOTH issues of not optimizing the load amount AND having to decompress from disk. Kontakt falls in between, becuase you can set it to the smallest buffer….but the NI “lossless compression” is a bottlneck—and not defeatable without hacking to allow resaving encrypted libraries as new NOT encrypted ones. That f’n Embertone Steinway is SO slow….i wish it didnt play and sound so wonderful! Just saying. Have fun with the new box. If you're going from rust drives to fast nvme, it will be night and day….but, if you're going from fast SATA SSDs, its fairly trivial in the real world of sample loading. Unfortunately. Ive actually bought some spare SATA SSDs to offload anything that wont optimize for screamo storage. Thanks for this, it’s a very interesting post and explains a lot to me about varying load times on my music laptop that does have nvme’s. I’d not considered the points you’ve made here and I will figure this into my decision on which system to buy. |
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Post by damoongo on Jun 29, 2023 21:40:37 GMT -6
I have a 12700K in one machine and I had an issue with stuttering in video editing software as well as some games. I turned off E cores to solve it. I never noticed any problems after that. True. But then with the i9 12700k you're paying for 4 disabled e-cores, and only using 8 cores. Where as with the Ryzen 7950x you're using 16 cores |
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Post by copperx on Jun 29, 2023 22:11:04 GMT -6
Just go Ryzen if you're going to stick with Steinberg products unless you really need the mobility.
My 6-year-old Ryzen 1800x is still faster than my M1 Macbook Pro (16 GB RAM), and it's a joy to be able to add new components.
I multi-boot Linux, Win 10, and Win 11 and find Win 11 completely stable under heavy load. If you go this route, don't forget to install the AMD chipset drivers, they make a big difference.
All operating systems and architectures suck in different ways. With that said, I would never use a PC laptop. Mac is the undisputed champion in mobile devices.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jun 29, 2023 22:44:04 GMT -6
The new M1 macs seem like a great audio solution if you can stomach the cost of decent size storage.
Another option is a thunderbolt NVMe storage solution.
I will say that Windows 11 has been much better than windows 10 ever was in my experience. Cubase 12 on the other hand hasn't been the most stable at times.
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Post by kerryluis on Aug 8, 2023 4:41:33 GMT -6
It's amazing how you've evolved from Windows 3.1 days to a Mac setup for your creative endeavors! Your Apple device collection sounds awesome and well-suited for lifestyle and professional use. Your detailed workflow with Cubase Pro 12 and various virtual instruments is impressive.
As for the right Mac machine, it depends on your specific needs. You've got an extensive VI arrangement and lots of plugins, so considering a Mac with ample RAM and processing power could be crucial. Exploring discussions like windows 10 key cheap might offer insights into your transition. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 8, 2023 10:57:50 GMT -6
Just go Ryzen if you're going to stick with Steinberg products unless you really need the mobility. My 6-year-old Ryzen 1800x is still faster than my M1 Macbook Pro (16 GB RAM), and it's a joy to be able to add new components. I multi-boot Linux, Win 10, and Win 11 and find Win 11 completely stable under heavy load. If you go this route, don't forget to install the AMD chipset drivers, they make a big difference. All operating systems and architectures suck in different ways. With that said, I would never use a PC laptop. Mac is the undisputed champion in mobile devices. I bit the bullet and in the end ordered a pro built 13900k with 64GB RAM and for me the all important internal 14TB's of various high speed mvne's I need for my composing workflow. It's nearly cost me as much as a Studio M2 Ultra, but at the end of the day as much as I love Apple products (I have lot's of them) I have a PCI-e RME AES card, UAD Quad cards and a shed load of various USB devices. I just couldn't face having a Studio with 8 things hanging of the back of it. I'm still in the camp that needs a proper tower workstation for my set-up and workflow and essentially Apple has vacated that space and gone for mobile and semi-mobile devices (brilliantly I may add) I'm definatly going to buy a 15" Mac Book Air, I tried one and they're gorgeous devices for mobile work. I also wanted the very best possible single core performance and that's currently held by the 13900K. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 8, 2023 21:00:27 GMT -6
My new 13900k PC arrives Friday.I've been using an Intel mac mini for the past couple of months. It has reminded me of my original love/hate relationship with Macs which was why I got a PC rather than moving on to mac system neXt and more planned obsolescence. I was expecting xp to be way harder to learn and navigate than it turned out to be. I installed Pro Tools and my plugins in about a half hour and was laughing myself silly.
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2023 21:21:24 GMT -6
Just go Ryzen if you're going to stick with Steinberg products unless you really need the mobility. My 6-year-old Ryzen 1800x is still faster than my M1 Macbook Pro (16 GB RAM), and it's a joy to be able to add new components. I multi-boot Linux, Win 10, and Win 11 and find Win 11 completely stable under heavy load. If you go this route, don't forget to install the AMD chipset drivers, they make a big difference. All operating systems and architectures suck in different ways. With that said, I would never use a PC laptop. Mac is the undisputed champion in mobile devices. I bit the bullet and in the end ordered a pro built 13900k with 64GB RAM and for me the all important internal 14TB's of various high speed mvne's I need for my composing workflow. It's nearly cost me as much as a Studio M2 Ultra, but at the end of the day as much as I love Apple products (I have lot's of them) I have a PCI-e RME AES card, UAD Quad cards and a shed load of various USB devices. I just couldn't face having a Studio with 8 things hanging of the back of it. I'm still in the camp that needs a proper tower workstation for my set-up and workflow and essentially Apple has vacated that space and gone for mobile and semi-mobile devices (brilliantly I may add) I'm definatly going to buy a 15" Mac Book Air, I tried one and they're gorgeous devices for mobile work. I also wanted the very best possible single core performance and that's currently held by the 13900K. The form factor of the Mac book air is addictive as hell. It’s just so easy to throw in the go bag, but the absolute polar opposite, the Panasonic Toughbook is just as addictive, the touchscreen and the abuse that thing will take. |
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Post by gmichael on Aug 8, 2023 22:53:21 GMT -6
My new 13900k PC arrives Friday.I've been using an Intel mac mini for the past couple of months. It has reminded me of my original love/hate relationship with Macs which was why I got a PC rather than moving on to mac system neXt and more planned obsolescence. I was expecting xp to be way harder to learn and navigate than it turned out to be. I installed Pro Tools and my plugins in about a half hour and was laughing myself silly. Did you buy off the shelf or had your 13900k custom built? It's to find the right combination of basic components to then upgrade around.
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 9, 2023 2:35:38 GMT -6
My new 13900k PC arrives Friday.I've been using an Intel mac mini for the past couple of months. It has reminded me of my original love/hate relationship with Macs which was why I got a PC rather than moving on to mac system neXt and more planned obsolescence. I was expecting xp to be way harder to learn and navigate than it turned out to be. I installed Pro Tools and my plugins in about a half hour and was laughing myself silly. Snap :-) I've seen a demo and these machines goes like the clappers, they are so incredibly powerful. I can't wait to install Cubase Pro 12 on it and take it for a low latency spin! |
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