Apple Forcing us into Atmos

I don't see end users needing or wanting Atmos. Only record companies needing a new revenue stream want it. They can push but I think ultimately it will fail. Do you know any consumers who have a system to listen to it on? Yes, I know it's supposed to fold down to stereo. I also know many people think the fold down is phasey and makes them nauseous in headphones.

Apple... Not a fan

Less and less a fan every day. Seems they started to go in another direction since October 2011 anyhow... wonder why?

I'm not intending to pick on mcirish here.  I think his response is a perfect encapsulation of hesitancy I see here on RGO and on other places.  Of course record companies (probably better described now as music providers) are a business and they need a new revenue stream. When wasn't this true? Going all in with speakers is also expensive (although getting less so). But when was building out a competitive studio not expensive?  Most of the stuff used in audio has gotten a lot cheaper--the actual recorder, media, processing--so Atmos brings us back to the reality that used to be common for studios: ya gotten spend some coin once in a while. I remember when every city had dozens of commercial 4-track (maybe even 8 track) studios. They've been gone for a long time now.  We all moved that work into our own homes. Those of you who still have commercial studios are offering a lot more tracks, more/better microphones, a decent room and the wealth of knowledge between your ears.

By the way, I think both of the videos were excellent. This changeover has actually been simmering for a long time. Virtually every decent soundbar now supports Atmos in some way. The effect isn't the same as with discrete speakers, but it's usually broader and more open. I have both a true 7.1.4 room and a good soundbar. They're not the same, but they both beat stereo and 5.1. This is true for both post and music. I did enjoy the reference to grandmothers baking cookies.  I've been on the planet long enough to be married to a grandmother.  She just remarked yesterday that she loves the immersive experience she gets with her ear-buds (yes, they're Apple).

Excluding the speakers, the tools to make and master Atmos are dirt cheap--well under $500.  If you use Logic or Nuendo (possibly Cubase, but I don't know), it's built-in. You can mix in headphones for an immersive taste of what you're doing (that depends on personal HRTFs and biometrics), or plain old stereo speakers. You've all got those unless you've been hanging on to mono releases ;-)

The maker of the video was very careful to say that there's not a real schedule for requiring Atmos mixes, so I think everybody's got some time to get familiar with the process. Blame often seems to fall on Apple, but Apple (to use an over-used metaphor) has always skated to where the puck is going to be. I had to toss my SCSI drives and floppy disks too.

I was here for the 5.1 fizzle (it only fizzled in music, not film). After all, I made--if not the first, then one of the first--5.1 reverbs. The things I feared all along were the things that killed it. The stereo fold-down was problematic for a lot of reasons. But I've always thought the biggest issue was inventory. Tower Music was not going to stock disks in both stereo and surround (and surround came in multiple formats). There was no common media. Atmos is very clever in the way they deliver to the end user. The file is actually a common wrapper that holds the true Atmos mix, the 5.1 mix and the stereo mix. The device plays at whatever level it's able.  You, the mixer, make all of those mixes at once (the stereo and 5.1 are down-rendered when you've finished mixing).  You can check them and make whatever tweaks you might need to.  And yes I agree that the stereo down-render usually sounds better than a straight stereo mix.

So yes, I do think this is an inevitability. It's a great thing that streaming services have been converging on loudness standards (finally), so moving toward Atmos is part of the same standardization.  There are many millions of listeners who now enjoy Atmos on earphones. There's still a lot to do: Apple Immersive and Atmos need to converge.  Getting decent personal biometrics is easier and better than it was, but there's still work to do. But you as the artist or producer already have good tools available on the cheap. If you're late career, then you'll probably stay in stereo and that's perfectly fine. Just leave your sessions clearly labeled and then maybe your kids will do the work of taking your stuff to immersive. If you're younger you'll probably naturally gravitate toward opening up those mixes.

Where is he getting info that you “have” to have atmos to get on a playlist?

Today's Atmos is yesteryear's Quadraphonic sound. What old is new again.

VR and Gaming will push immersive sound VERY far. Already is in a lot of ways. And film/tv.

Pretty good video.  The question of mastering is fraught. Most of what is "general" knowledge of mastering (and dynamics in general) is really based in stereo. The image will wander if you don't use a stereo compressor on the mix, etc, etc.  It's quite different in Atmos, and chances are that you don't want a multichannel compressor tied across the entire mix.   You might find that subgrouping of some sort is the better solution. We're quite some ways from a general solution and I think that's great. Some aspects of stereo mixing and mastering have become fossilized and Atmos (or any immersive) gives us the opportunity for a rethink.  Much of the art of stereo is about just squeezing everything in.

One of the beauties of immersive is that all those objects give us a great chance to maintain the dynamic range and relative dynamics of all our instruments.  There's more room, more speaker cones, and mixes sound so much more transparent. You can hear things that simply wouldn't be audible in stereo. When things have to be output as stereo, the Dolby stereo render does a good job of getting it all in.

Some of you probably know Steve Genewick at Capitol Recording. He's a great mixer (and a good guy) and has done quite a few Atmos projects at Capitol.  I remember hear somebody ask Steve how to deal with mastering in Atmos.  Steve gave him a quizzical look at then said "you just... mix". That's a pretty good thing to keep in mind.

That being said, Dolby's working on some basic mastering software (in addition to what's already in Atmos) and that should simplify some things.  But Atmos is different--it's open and transparent.  You don't have to have stuff flying around the room (although that's pretty cool in some situations).

Hi Vincent, I just started a new thread and posted a rant about Atmos. I'll close it and join your thread. Haven't read comments here yet..

VR will require some kind of 4D spacial delivery. So be it. Tunes? I've never heard a surround mix of music that beat the Stereo version. Then I haven't listen to many, either. Surround tends to "un-glue" the mix you spent such effort to gel in the first place. 

That video is a year old. I wonder in that time how many of us here have been asked by clients for ATMOS mixes. 

Right?

I think the problem with music only quad/5.1/7.1/Immersive/ATMOS etc is that music is thought of by most people as coming for a specific point source, usually in front of us.  Sure there's ambience around us, but the mind still focuses on the player or players in front of us.  They are a unified ensemble that, even when listening to records, we imagine clumped nest to and behind one another.  Even an orchestra, sure it's a pretty WIDE group, but they are all in front of you. 

I'm sure gaming and film are truly enhanced by the immersive experience.  I'm not sure music listeners (is there such a thing anymore?) generally are not a good target. 

My 'day job' is for a music and sound design company... We occasionally do 5.1 work but literally no one has requested Atmos. And 5.1 is maybe 5% at most of the mixes we do. Even from our clients who do millions or billions in revenue. Not saying the day won't come. But it does feel like something that is less about making some thing better, and more about making it more profitable (for the gatekeepers).