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Post by Quint on Aug 24, 2022 13:13:24 GMT -6
I have plenty of preamps to go either way, and have liked both clean and coloured preamps in this application for different reasons, but I'm just curious what kinds of preamps you guys prefer to use for room mics? Clean or coloured?
It doesn't necessarily matter what instrument we're talking about here, as I record room mics for all kinds of different stuff, but I suppose we could focus the discussion on room mics for drums, if we had to.
So clean or coloured? Why do you prefer one over the other?
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Post by EmRR on Aug 24, 2022 13:19:50 GMT -6
i can only see that in terms of wanting detail or not, and that's after the same decision tree about the mics.
Almost all my pre's are wildly more colored than anything anyone else uses, or any preamp shootout anyone's ever posted.....
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 24, 2022 13:32:20 GMT -6
I feel like a lot of people treat drum room mics as an after thought. Like any mic/preamp combo will do...which seems a little crazy to me. A huge part of my drum sound (usually) is from the room mics. So while I'm not too fussy over what preamps I use, as long as they're good, I prefer something more colored than clean. I thing of them no different than every other part of the drum kit. Just my 2 cents
If we were talking about other acoustic instruments I might feel different.
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Post by Quint on Aug 24, 2022 13:38:35 GMT -6
i can only see that in terms of wanting detail or not, and that's after the same decision tree about the mics. Almost all my pre's are wildly more colored than anything anyone else uses, or any preamp shootout anyone's ever posted..... Yeah, I tend to agree with the idea of choosing on detail/no detail. What's your most coloured pre? I tend to go for coloured instead of clean, myself. |
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Post by Quint on Aug 24, 2022 13:46:08 GMT -6
I feel like a lot of people treat drum room mics as an after thought. Like any mic/preamp combo will do...which seems a little crazy to me. A huge part of my drum sound (usually) is from the room mics. So while I'm not too fussy over what preamps I use, as long as they're good, I prefer something more colored than clean. I thing of them no different than every other part of the drum kit. Just my 2 cents If we were talking about other acoustic instruments I might feel different. I tend to go coloured on room mics myself, but I was kicking around messing with clean channels for room mics. Truth be told, I'm looking at picking up a second Audient ASP800 for eight more channels, the goal being to have enough total channels so that literally everything is miced up all the time and ready to go in a "stations" sort of setup. I'm just kicking around which channels or instruments I want to place on the Audients, which are cleaner, and which ones I want to dedicate to my coloured channels. |
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 24, 2022 13:48:16 GMT -6
You can add color later, but can’t take it away, right?
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Post by Quint on Aug 24, 2022 14:07:14 GMT -6
Thone81 and indiehouse. Fancy finding the both of you here. I know you guys have both indicated that you like the Sebatron pres. I have a VMP4000e myself. I know that Tbone has also indicated that he likes the Audient ASP800, though I'm not sure about indiehouse. I too have an ASP800.
Anyway, it sounds like we have similar tastes in preamps. I'm thinking of picking up a second ASP800 right now, but I'm eventually planning on also getting a second Sebatron VMP4000e.
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Post by Quint on Aug 24, 2022 14:11:06 GMT -6
You can add color later, but can’t take it away, right? Yeah, though I do tend to like color. Since I'd have another 8 channels of clean preamps with the ASP800, I was thinking I might dedicate those to four channels of room mics plus a secondary set of piano preamps and then I'm not sure what I might do with the last two channels. Maybe additional drum channels? This is all mostly just thinking out loud, as I tend to do, but I was just curious on people's preferences for color when it comes to room mics. |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 24, 2022 14:28:47 GMT -6
One reason API style pres with trimable outputs are so nice, they can do a great job at cleanish or pushed sounds.
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 24, 2022 14:44:56 GMT -6
Thone81 and indiehouse. Fancy finding the both of you here. I know you guys have both indicated that you like the Sebatron pres. I have a VMP4000e myself. I know that Tbone has also indicated that he likes the Audient ASP800, though I'm not sure about indiehouse. I too have an ASP800. Anyway, it sounds like we have similar tastes in preamps. I'm thinking of picking up a second ASP800 right now, but I'm eventually planning on also getting a second Sebatron VMP4000e. Im actually thinking of getting a second vmp4000 too, mine is currently dedicated to synth di’s and it kills in that dept. but as my synth collection grows I may need more channels. Like you, I want everything hooked up at all times. Got nothing bad to say about Audient at all. I was rather impressed with the “vintage” channels on my asp800, thought they sounded great on di bass. I think either way you’re going to get a great sound. |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 24, 2022 14:56:03 GMT -6
You can add color later, but can’t take it away, right? Why would you want to take it away? Why would you want to add it, one step removed? It's not the same added later. |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 24, 2022 15:00:04 GMT -6
i can only see that in terms of wanting detail or not, and that's after the same decision tree about the mics. Almost all my pre's are wildly more colored than anything anyone else uses, or any preamp shootout anyone's ever posted..... Yeah, I tend to agree with the idea of choosing on detail/no detail. What's your most coloured pre? I tend to go for coloured instead of clean, myself. Likely the 1947 Collins 6Q-1, has like a 20dB soft knee distortion curve, it's never clean. It'll make you lose your mind if it's not making you happy! A whole console of that is a SOUND. I have much older stuff I use, and most of it is cleaner, even the 1932 stuff. |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 24, 2022 15:07:24 GMT -6
You can add color later, but can’t take it away, right? Why would you want to take it away? Why would you want to add it, one step removed? It's not the same added later. I try to get the sound going in as well, but then there’s Dave Fridmann, who tracks clean (or did circa 2003). He’s pretty great at what he does and it’s at mix stage that he gets “that” sound. |
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Post by phdamage on Aug 24, 2022 21:21:50 GMT -6
Thone81 and indiehouse. Fancy finding the both of you here. I know you guys have both indicated that you like the Sebatron pres. I have a VMP4000e myself. I know that Tbone has also indicated that he likes the Audient ASP800, though I'm not sure about indiehouse. I too have an ASP800. Anyway, it sounds like we have similar tastes in preamps. I'm thinking of picking up a second ASP800 right now, but I'm eventually planning on also getting a second Sebatron VMP4000e. Im actually thinking of getting a second vmp4000 too, mine is currently dedicated to synth di’s and it kills in that dept. but as my synth collection grows I may need more channels. Like you, I want everything hooked up at all times. Got nothing bad to say about Audient at all. I was rather impressed with the “vintage” channels on my asp800, thought they sounded great on di bass. I think either way you’re going to get a great sound. Enjoy my Sebatron vmp4000 as well. I was shocked to see the Tape Op review kinda pan it off as a mid-level pre some years back! I see them B stock (pretty sure) on eBay frequently for around $1k. Total steal. While I don’t often use them on drum room, I often use them for overheads and bass amp. Have liked it on plenty of other sources I’ve tried as well - kick in, vocal, guitars, etc |
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Post by phdamage on Aug 24, 2022 21:24:37 GMT -6
Getting back to the OP, I am colored room pres all the way! Been going Hairball bronze for some time now. Have used chandler germ or little devils here and there or (less often) the sebatron or my JLM dual 99v
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2022 21:42:29 GMT -6
There is no such thing as a truly clean mic pre or a wire with gain. Use something that sounds good.
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Post by svart on Aug 25, 2022 14:24:58 GMT -6
Honestly I just use whatever. The room mics are going to "fill in" or probably be used as the reverb source (more realistic reverb tone) anyway, so I use whatever I have left in the rack.
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Aug 25, 2022 18:34:24 GMT -6
In my very limited time of having a small drum tracking studio, I've noticed that my preamp choices (CAPI VP28, BAE 1073 or Rascal Audio 2V) are not nearly as important as my room mic choices or placements. Clean or dirty, all of my preamps make less of an immediate difference to my ear than just moving the mics around. My room is pretty small, so the placements really matter. The Transient Designer really helps make my room mics sound more like room mics, and that is probably a bigger factor than any preamp as well. That being said, I've been using the BAEs recently and driving them pretty hard with EQ engaged but not cutting/boosting anything and I like it. I've been working on two and three mic setups, really trying to get some character out of just a stereo room pair plus one extra mic right over the bass drum rim between the snare and floor tom. I like taking those tracks and then sending them back through some driven VP28s to get more beef, and it seems like you get a tiny bit more grit and some compression. I've been on an Electrovoice 635a room mic extravaganza recently, and they seem sort of lo-fi and cut back on the cymbals nicely, especially with the driven preamps and any compression I add. Its not a very clean sound, but it can get very vibey very quickly.
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Post by notneeson on Aug 25, 2022 19:22:28 GMT -6
I’m mixing some late 90s stuff (have talked about this before here) and they only had the Yamaha board pres in the DM2000, and it really sounds quite good for indie label/DIY kid stuff of that era. But, there’s ratty distortion on some of the bass tracks, so one nice thing about discrete stuff is that it often clips more pleasantly if you blow it. The IC based Trident I’ve worked is great right up until it goes splat, where a Neve or an API will get meaty and interesting.
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Post by Quint on Aug 25, 2022 20:31:47 GMT -6
In my very limited time of having a small drum tracking studio, I've noticed that my preamp choices (CAPI VP28, BAE 1073 or Rascal Audio 2V) are not nearly as important as my room mic choices or placements. Clean or dirty, all of my preamps make less of an immediate difference to my ear than just moving the mics around. My room is pretty small, so the placements really matter. The Transient Designer really helps make my room mics sound more like room mics, and that is probably a bigger factor than any preamp as well. That being said, I've been using the BAEs recently and driving them pretty hard with EQ engaged but not cutting/boosting anything and I like it. I've been working on two and three mic setups, really trying to get some character out of just a stereo room pair plus one extra mic right over the bass drum rim between the snare and floor tom. I like taking those tracks and then sending them back through some driven VP28s to get more beef, and it seems like you get a tiny bit more grit and some compression. I've been on an Electrovoice 635a room mic extravaganza recently, and they seem sort of lo-fi and cut back on the cymbals nicely, especially with the driven preamps and any compression I add. Its not a very clean sound, but it can get very vibey very quickly.
I recently picked up a pair of 635a myself, specifically to use as room mics. How are you using them? I was thinking about placing them up high in the corners, about 20 feet from the drums. |
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Aug 25, 2022 21:01:05 GMT -6
I recently picked up a pair of 635a myself, specifically to use as room mics. How are you using them? I was thinking about placing them up high in the corners, about 20 feet from the drums.
Try it! I sort of abandoned the high corner opposite my kit (which itself is in a corner) as a room mic placement in my room because it sounded a bit bassy and congested (for lack of a better term). The 635a isn't the most detailed mic and for my room, putting them too far away or in a bassy corner really didn't compliment my drum sound. The cymbals sounded ok, but the rest of the drums sort of lost some spunk. I'm more of a drum-centric room guy than cymbal-centric, if that makes sense. In any case, put up allllllll the mics and just check your phasing. You can always mute them later!
In my room, I've been digging a pair of 635s slightly angled away from each other, and pointed sort of up to the ceiling to taste, just about 6 feet in front of the kit, right around cymbal height. I'm not getting a ultra wide image or anything particularly detailed, but I'm really not going for that with those mics. I've also tried the same sort of setup to capture my drums out in the larger warehouse space that adjoins my little studio. Its usually noisy out there, so I only have so many chances to explore that space.
I also have tried one as a mono room mic and also over my right shoulder (as a right handed drummer) and those positions were cool. I'm finding a lot of uses for the 635 on my drums.
I really like the 635 best in that crotch mic position becasue it sort of tames a lot of the extreme shrillness of the ride cymbal and hi hat, but leaves the snare with some nice body without getting blown out by the kick drum. Plus its a tank for those rare instances where you totally whiff the floor tom during a big sweeping Neil Peart drum fill. Its not a terribly fragile mic.
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Post by notneeson on Aug 26, 2022 8:31:58 GMT -6
I got a really nice room sound once with a 635a: we were recording at this McMansion out in the country and had the drums set up in the foyer. All tile room with the ceiling going up all the way up to the second storey. Behind the kit was a staircase, so we hung the mic out from the landing, probably 20 feet above the drums. Really cool and useful drum ambience.
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Post by damoongo on Aug 26, 2022 10:52:53 GMT -6
My take on the order of importance:
Room and source sound 50%
Mic choice/placement 30%
Processing (eq/comp etc) 15%
Mic pre 3%
Converters 1%
Other 1%
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Post by copperx on Aug 26, 2022 21:38:57 GMT -6
There is no such thing as a truly clean mic pre or a wire with gain. Use something that sounds good. This has always bothered me. Take the average "clean" consumer interface preamp and compare it against, say, a "clean" John Hardy M-1. Both measure great in the harmonic distortion department and frequency bandwith, yet the M-1 will sound much better. If they both measure great, why is the M-1 better? The topology of the M-1 will sound more pleasing to most people. Also, take a 1073, put it under the microscope in an Audio Precision analyzer, and it will show a ruler-straight frequency response, and a THD of under 0.01% for most of the frequency range. It was also designed to be as transparent as possible. There's a lot of mysticism around pres, and I think that classifying them into the buckets of 'clean' and 'colored' is highly misleading. Instead, it might be better to think of them as being several versions of 'good' (and then just plain bad ones). Can you record orchestral music with a 'colored' pre such as the 1073? Absolutely. But f you have the clear/colored mindset and you aren't very experienced, you might be worried about "losing detail" or even "ruining" the recording and might tempting about using a "cleaner" pre in that situation. The 1073 will do the job wonderfully and the sound will be amazing (given that you like the 1073 tone). I agree with Dan, get something that sounds good and forget about the clean or colored dichotomy. |
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olionajudah
Full Member
just learning .. one mistake at a time
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Post by olionajudah on Aug 27, 2022 10:07:59 GMT -6
My primary room mic application at the moment is a pair of 4038s in blumlein in front of my drum kit. They tend to live on a pair of grace pres, though I make that choice based more on the input impedance than the clean/color idea, which I find to be a bit of a red herring, personally. Even if I did think color was a thing, the 4038s are the color, not the pres. That said, patching the coles in a mic pre with lower input impedance absolutely "darkens" the capture, rolling off some top end, reducing articulation and dulling transient response.
I like the sound of a room in my recordings and will often put up other mics for room applications. 87 & Redd are common here, but whatever I've got available honestly. Again, my mic-pre selection is most often based on the needs of the mic and application (gain range, attenuation, input impedance, padding, etc..). The only other consideration is what I've got available.. I could spend the rest of my life exploring the subtle differences my mic pre options make in different applications, or I could leave them where they are, and do some tracking.
I've got 24 mic ins, and could easily use more (8, 16 .. etc.. it never ends), yet I only ever have one or two that are not already occupied. I spend as little time as possible swapping inputs, and almost none of that comes down to color.. it's always features.
I will admit I do love a pair of 84s into my BAE 1073mpf with the lower (300ohm) input impedance for drum OH. Not sure why, I know that's not the 'recommended' input impedance (10x the output impedance of the mic) but .. my ears *slightly* prefer it that way.
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