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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2022 8:47:11 GMT -6
Way more sound options for cheap. It's incredible actually, Logic GIVES you everything you need to make a great recording for $200. Add a $300 interface and a $400 mic and you can do amazing things today. For me, the part I think is much better is recall, in 2 minutes I have a track running to edit I worked on 6 months ago. More memory obviously helps there. After that, I don't think music sounds better now. But it's not the plug-ins fault. It's that without a group of musicians playing together in a room the creativity diminishes exponentially. Tracking one at a time means there's no true interaction between players, you play to what was done before and cannot influence the other player/players in real time. No wonder so much music today sounds the same. So, while I love the idea of no longer needing to look at a map every two minutes when driving somewhere new, and being able to speak to and see someone around the world easily on my phone, I hope to find a happier medium in 2022, one where I use all these wonderful tools and innovations creatively, but get back together with creative human beings way more often. Hopefully covid won't continue to prevent that in the years to come. Oh, and despite the ubiquity of very good sounding mics at reasonable prices, I still want a Chandler REDD, or a true vintage Neumann. Nothing's topped that one yet. I'll be the first in line if technology gets me something as good or better than a new Chandler or a vintage U67 for $300
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Post by yewtreemagic on Jan 11, 2022 12:46:35 GMT -6
I had a TI calculator one too! But did you play Drug Wars on it in chemistry? No, your youth was obviously more misspent than mine
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 16:06:50 GMT -6
After that, I don't think music sounds better now. But it's not the plug-ins fault. It's that without a group of musicians playing together in a room the creativity diminishes exponentially. Tracking one at a time means there's no true interaction between players, you play to what was done before and cannot influence the other player/players in real time. No wonder so much music today sounds the same. I think it sounds better than ever, the clarity, fidelity, lack of noise, unprecedented dynamic range when not crushed into a square wave at the mastering stage. Some real instruments with a modern chain can be awe inspiring.. Disagree with "music sounding the same" as well and definitely disagree that tracking methodology has any part to play in it. I've heard all sorts of odd goodness in the metal / rock / alt realm, like extreme songs that drop into delightful pixie music or alt rock + Latvian folk songs with a hint of Irish instrumentals. Creativity ain't an issue, selling music is.. If you're in this for profit you don't take risks. Don't get me wrong, a band scenario can lead to unexpected venture's. It's often not a good thing but sometimes it works.. Even the social aspect I get but I've seen too many solo trackers, bands etc. to label anything. Tons of metalcore bands back in the day played "live" when recording, most of them still sounded the same.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2022 17:11:17 GMT -6
I think that can be an entirely different discussion, analogue vs. digital. All the improvements you mentioned have not once given me the deep feeling of connection to the artist that an all analogue system has. Technically, of course you're right, but I prefer the emotional connection to artists or bands I get from records. That's me, not saying I'm "right".
There might be a dozen other reasons, but to me music has become much more generic than it was when I was getting into music. The bands I loved all sounded unique. Traffic sounded like Traffic, The Stones, The Beatles, The Supremes, Otis Redding, Jethro Tull, Black Sabbath, James Taylor, David Bowie, The Animals, Smokey Robinson, were all identifiable immediately. The NY Scene in the 70's had the most diverse groups imaginable all playing in one or two clubs, all sounding unique. Most pop music today sounds like the same machines made the same sounds for the same kinds of songs. Of course great talent and creativity still exists, but much less so in Pop, Rock and Country today IMO, and I do think massive overdubbing is part of it.
I don't know how many bands you've played in Shadow, but saying "sometimes it works" is quite an understatement. Thank God it works. Almost all the great music I loved happened because bands worked. I had a band when I was 17 called Pandora. The drummer went on to play with John Waite, Bryan Adams, David Johansen, Tom Petty and many others. The bass player and singer have similar stellar resumes. The magic the band had was instantaneous. In the first 30 seconds of playing together we knew something special was happening. A demo we made was found in a drawer 35 years later and brought to light, raved about in Rolling Stone, dozens of articles written, a CD released and a special edition vinyl release by a record company happened a few months ago. No way that could have ever been as exciting and magical without all four of us in a room playing together. Every band I had was like that.
I do hear you though about many metal bands sounding alike. I think that comes from wanting the same success someone else had with it.
I hope the Big Six is still rockin' for you!
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Post by deaconblues on Jan 11, 2022 17:50:49 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 17:51:53 GMT -6
I think that can be an entirely different discussion, analogue vs. digital. All the improvements you mentioned have not once given me the deep feeling of connection to the artist that an all analogue system has. Technically, of course you're right, but I prefer the emotional connection to artists or bands I get from records. That's me, not saying I'm "right". There might be a dozen other reasons, but to me music has become much more generic than it was when I was getting into music. The bands I loved all sounded unique. Traffic sounded like Traffic, The Stones, The Beatles, The Supremes, Otis Redding, Jethro Tull, Black Sabbath, James Taylor, David Bowie, The Animals, Smokey Robinson, were all identifiable immediately. The NY Scene in the 70's had the most diverse groups imaginable all playing in one or two clubs, all sounding unique. Most pop music today sounds like the same machines made the same sounds for the same kinds of songs. Of course great talent and creativity still exists, but much less so in Pop, Rock and Country today IMO, and I do think massive overdubbing is part of it. Mainstream music is generic, that's why I said "If you're in this for profit you don't take risks.". Outside of that realm there's a metric ton of songs uploaded every day but how much of it is white noise? So I mainly end up listening to what's presented and it does appear to sound all the same. But that doesn't mean there's not 10,000 different sounding awesome songs out there, the problem is finding it under the mountain. Also I agree with machine / VST re-use, I've heard superior drummer on so many tracks at this point the flaw's hit me in the face and I can't stand the sound of it. It's probably a very good product (as everyone keeps telling me) but it's ingrained into my brain past the point of reason.. 60's / 70's music was way before my time, I like the songs (in fact I love some of the songs) but by modern standards I think they're sonically lacking. Whether that matters or not is a completely different debate. It will be preference, it could also be a generational thing or the fact I probably avoid mainstream music (for the most part).. It really depends. The one thing I do know is in the wider picture there's all sorts of music, quite liking rustic stuff or European "dramatic" folk at the moment. You're very lucky and IME the exception not the rule, most of the bands I were in (knew about or interacted with) when I was younger weren't all that umm good.. Plus a lot of conflicts in direction, never really got much done, I mean I mainly went band practice to get out of the house. It was fun though..
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2022 19:21:16 GMT -6
Here we are at 2022. I thought a little perspective might be fun for us all! Everything’s freaking expensive now right? Well…. Recently I bought something that sent my mind reeling back to 1993 when I got an 8 track Pro Tools II system! 8 channels with two 424’s. Pretty pricey and my first DAW ever!!! I was certainly excited. The hard drive that came with the system was a whopping 650MB. Just barely large enough for CD production. Wild. Then my brain went fast forward to 2022...as I recently purchased a raw Western Digital 18TB (YES 18TB!!!) SATA drive for $299, and it got me to thinking….. The Pro Tools HD was 650MB, 3RU, 14” deep, weighed about 25 lbs and cost $3,500. [Side note : it was beautiful BTW]. The new 18TB cost $299 and fits in the palm of my hand and cost $299 + tax…. So it got me thinking……there are 1,000,000MB in every terabyte. So that means that there are 18,000,000MB in the new SATA drive. Curiosity had me wondering how many of the 650MB drives would have fit on the new WD drive. So I did the math. Turns out I could fit 27,692 of the Digidesign drives on the new WD drive. Then I got to thinking about the price differences between 1993 and now. 27,692 X $3,500 is a whopping : $96,922,000 in 2022 dollars. YIKES!!!!!! Yup. Having that kind of drive space in 1993 would have cost almost $100 Million USD. But wait - what about inflation? Since 1993 there has been a 92.35% cumulative inflationary price change. That’s when my head started to hurt. If you really want to mess with your brain and the cost of HD space, think about THAT! Glad to be in 2022. Almost ALL gear is a bargain and significantly BETTER compared to the early 90’s. If you were there, you know that. So many great options and incredible bargains out there these days - even though biz is significantly more challenging. Wishing 2022 is a great year for all of you. Those were my New Years thoughts... Oh the grand old days, while I wasn’t building systems till PT3 and the 888’s I was using the old 442’s. You forgot to mention the “magic” of getting the thing to hold sync with just about anything! Now that was always the fun part, MDM’s tape, MIDI etc. One of the biggest things that brought drives down in price happened around 2000, we no longer needed Glyph, AVID etc no longer had to QC drives for us. We could buy enterprise class drives at retail. Man not having that additional mark up helped and god did it make it easier than calling Glyph see what was on the shelf and could ship! I will never forget the first time I walked into CompUSA to by a drive for a PT rig for a customer. We also can’t forget the ATTO controller card or the fact that you had to have an external enclosure. The enclosures were just as much of bitch, had to have the right chip, a big enough PSU and of course venting. Yeah we sure have come a long way.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2022 19:54:12 GMT -6
That was a brilliant post Shadow!
As far as being "lucky", it depends on what angle I look at it from. I see the times I spent with bands as the result of a tremendous work ethic paired with some talent. It was the incredible love I had for music that sustained me through the worst of times. I used to be truly grateful to make $6 at a gig so I could go to Chinatown for a meal because I hadn't eaten that day.
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Post by christopher on Jan 11, 2022 21:23:05 GMT -6
Driving the other day I let Apple Music do the playlist thing after hearing some new indie rock bands people recommended and a really good recording came on, some new artist. Total real amps and analog synths. I was really impressed with the production, great room sound, great musicians and mixed well! A really cool authentic feel, big! - but not overdone, you could feel the room around the vocals and guitar, lots of character and smooth like a good 80s underground sound. It made me realize wow- we’ve come so damn far! bands can do anything they want now. I tried to imagine which plugins they used, was it Ocean way? Hmmm. It’s not sunset,. Nah it had to be a real room, but with good mics and placement. Too smooth overall they must have used some tape for effect, whatever they did it’s great.
So I get to the stoplight and take note of the band: Blue Oyster Cult, Agents of Fortune! I think it was Tenderloin? or Debbie Denise. Mother f***** True story. Got me. I felt so ashamed. Those songs are still incredible.
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Post by christopher on Jan 11, 2022 21:35:37 GMT -6
Here we are at 2022. I thought a little perspective might be fun for us all! Everything’s freaking expensive now right? Well…. Recently I bought something that sent my mind reeling back to 1993 when I got an 8 track Pro Tools II system! 8 channels with two 424’s. Pretty pricey and my first DAW ever!!! I was certainly excited. The hard drive that came with the system was a whopping 650MB. Just barely large enough for CD production. Wild. Then my brain went fast forward to 2022...as I recently purchased a raw Western Digital 18TB (YES 18TB!!!) SATA drive for $299, and it got me to thinking….. The Pro Tools HD was 650MB, 3RU, 14” deep, weighed about 25 lbs and cost $3,500. [Side note : it was beautiful BTW]. The new 18TB cost $299 and fits in the palm of my hand and cost $299 + tax…. So it got me thinking……there are 1,000,000MB in every terabyte. So that means that there are 18,000,000MB in the new SATA drive. Curiosity had me wondering how many of the 650MB drives would have fit on the new WD drive. So I did the math. Turns out I could fit 27,692 of the Digidesign drives on the new WD drive. Then I got to thinking about the price differences between 1993 and now. 27,692 X $3,500 is a whopping : $96,922,000 in 2022 dollars. YIKES!!!!!! Yup. Having that kind of drive space in 1993 would have cost almost $100 Million USD. But wait - what about inflation? Since 1993 there has been a 92.35% cumulative inflationary price change. That’s when my head started to hurt. If you really want to mess with your brain and the cost of HD space, think about THAT! Glad to be in 2022. Almost ALL gear is a bargain and significantly BETTER compared to the early 90’s. If you were there, you know that. So many great options and incredible bargains out there these days - even though biz is significantly more challenging. Wishing 2022 is a great year for all of you. Those were my New Years thoughts... 18 Terabytes? $299? Wow, I didn’t realize! It’s only going to get more. What are we going to do with so much space?
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Post by drbill on Jan 11, 2022 21:43:28 GMT -6
What are we going to do with so much space? Backup stuff?? Nah...... My hard drive will never crash.....
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Post by Guitar on Jan 11, 2022 21:59:52 GMT -6
Since it sort of got mentioned... I decided to "put away" my $40 amp sim software, and set up a vintage British amp, a Selmer worth about $1,000 these days, over the top of some Greenback speakers. I've also been recording with the Boss Katana head alternately.
Well hot damn. I guess this does sound better than a VST amp sim. Fuller sound in the mix, more true bottom end, more sustain.
I'm still on the fence about Superior Drummer 3 vs my real drums. They can both work. The real drums sound more "huge" and washy though.
When you compare one of my all VST tracks with one of my real drum / real amp tracks... the latter is ultimately more satisfying.
So I guess my tendency on 1/11/2022 is a little more in the "analog" realm, than the digital one.
But of course the raw truth is still, if the song slaps, it doesn't matter much either way. Either one works. I have a new all-digital song that you would never guess. Although it has a djembe in it that was miked, and a vocal.
Sitting on just about three full albums worth of good songs, unreleased, as of today, some probably "great."
My Bandcamp stats for December were "Zero plays." Not even a single click. That's about the size of it. So no rush to release right now. Just going to keep writing. Sort of this Zen exercise in something and nothing.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2022 22:55:15 GMT -6
What are we going to do with so much space? Backup stuff?? Nah...... My hard drive will never crash..... That last sentence is an invitation to disaster, geez talk about daring the fates!
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Post by christophert on Jan 11, 2022 22:56:35 GMT -6
In 2022, I'm selling lots of older gear that I don't use much - prices are insane:) Never in my career have I found almost everything I own go up in price so much. Things that I bought for $150 now worth thousands - like Korg SDD3000's.
Strike while the irons hot !
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2022 22:56:38 GMT -6
Here we are at 2022. I thought a little perspective might be fun for us all! Everything’s freaking expensive now right? Well…. Recently I bought something that sent my mind reeling back to 1993 when I got an 8 track Pro Tools II system! 8 channels with two 424’s. Pretty pricey and my first DAW ever!!! I was certainly excited. The hard drive that came with the system was a whopping 650MB. Just barely large enough for CD production. Wild. Then my brain went fast forward to 2022...as I recently purchased a raw Western Digital 18TB (YES 18TB!!!) SATA drive for $299, and it got me to thinking….. The Pro Tools HD was 650MB, 3RU, 14” deep, weighed about 25 lbs and cost $3,500. [Side note : it was beautiful BTW]. The new 18TB cost $299 and fits in the palm of my hand and cost $299 + tax…. So it got me thinking……there are 1,000,000MB in every terabyte. So that means that there are 18,000,000MB in the new SATA drive. Curiosity had me wondering how many of the 650MB drives would have fit on the new WD drive. So I did the math. Turns out I could fit 27,692 of the Digidesign drives on the new WD drive. Then I got to thinking about the price differences between 1993 and now. 27,692 X $3,500 is a whopping : $96,922,000 in 2022 dollars. YIKES!!!!!! Yup. Having that kind of drive space in 1993 would have cost almost $100 Million USD. But wait - what about inflation? Since 1993 there has been a 92.35% cumulative inflationary price change. That’s when my head started to hurt. If you really want to mess with your brain and the cost of HD space, think about THAT! Glad to be in 2022. Almost ALL gear is a bargain and significantly BETTER compared to the early 90’s. If you were there, you know that. So many great options and incredible bargains out there these days - even though biz is significantly more challenging. Wishing 2022 is a great year for all of you. Those were my New Years thoughts... 18 Terabytes? $299? Wow, I didn’t realize! It’s only going to get more. What are we going to do with so much space? He can now get sloppy or become the data tape version of a hoarder.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2022 22:57:54 GMT -6
In 2022, I'm selling lots of older gear that I don't use much - prices are insane:) Never in my career have I found almost everything I own go up in price so much. Things that I bought for $150 now worth thousands - like Korg SDD3000's. Strike while the irons hot ! See thread on PayPal 1099 disclosure!
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Post by jmoose on Jan 11, 2022 23:29:38 GMT -6
When I was in college in the early 2000s, the gear boom was just kicking off (little did we know how silly it would get though) and a teacher shared with us students a price list from CBS from ten-ish (maybe 20-ish) years prior that went out when they were liquidating some of their various studio or radio holdings. Man...$100 for a 451 or 414. $150 for a Pultec (!!!!). Shit woulda been better than bitcoin. 🤣 Yup! I came up at the tail end of that era... At one point it was all just old shit nobody wanted. Lotta gear was thrown into dumpsters. That was all pre interknot and before the real tipping point... which IMO was the digi 001. When that hit all of sudden everyone was after old & quality equipment. Not only musicians with home studios but pros too. My now long time pal Greg had the first 001 rig I remember seeing in person. He was on staff at Kampo in NYC & bought the digi so he could work outside the studio. Track a band at my punk rock hole & mix in his apartment... that sorta thing. Hey... who remembers paying $10 per blank CD? That was amazing for the time! Now some people don't even own a CD player. Wild.
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Post by christophert on Jan 12, 2022 1:51:26 GMT -6
In 2022, I'm selling lots of older gear that I don't use much - prices are insane:) Never in my career have I found almost everything I own go up in price so much. Things that I bought for $150 now worth thousands - like Korg SDD3000's. Strike while the irons hot ! See thread on PayPal 1099 disclosure! Lucky I don't live in the US
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 4:46:30 GMT -6
I'm still on the fence about Superior Drummer 3 vs my real drums. They can both work. The real drums sound more "huge" and washy though. Washy usually means serious phase issues.. Anyway there's a lot of instruments in VST or workstation form that IMO are a bit too convincing to pick apart. Drum VST's IMO aren't one of them, however once I've processed the daylights out of a real kit to keep them inline with modern expectations it's neither here or there. Then there's the expense and pain of recording real drums, unfortunately I don't have a million dollars spare to buy land (due to modern noise regulations), build a specialised tracking room, buy a ton of high end mic's + outboard and a proper recording kit. So whether or not I like VST's is a moot point, I have no choice but to use them really.. Although I'm considering a "hybrid" kit with Husht cymbals for example, that could be interesting. Anyway, I'd be happy enough with different so I'm going to experiment a bit. Martin John Butler , I'd definitely pay you $6.00 to work with some dedicated, passionate and talented musicians. I've always wondered what would happen if I formed a band with people who takes this as seriously as I do.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 12, 2022 7:53:58 GMT -6
Martin John Butler , I'd definitely pay you $6.00 to work with some dedicated, passionate and talented musicians. I've always wondered what would happen if I formed a band with people who takes this as seriously as I do. Funny thing, even when I got together with some "dedicated, passionate and talented musicians", there were only a few who REALLY had what it takes to push through it all. I once had a deal happening with Geffen Records. It was a four month lockout for $10,000, ($30,000 in today's money). We would begin recording, and if all went well, they would sign us to a major deal. My best friend/partner of four years quit from the pressure. It was situation like Lennon/McCartney, Hall & Oates, where the sum was bigger than the parts. The deal didn't happen. That's when I began writing and producing radio and TV commercials because I could do it by myself. Other than when you're very young, I've found the only thing that really works is if you can pay the band yourself. At least a couple of my bands made it to major labels. Unfortunately it was like making it to the major leagues, but we only hit .198. Didn't last long.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 12, 2022 10:48:23 GMT -6
I'm still on the fence about Superior Drummer 3 vs my real drums. They can both work. The real drums sound more "huge" and washy though. Washy usually means serious phase issues.. Anyway there's a lot of instruments in VST or workstation form that IMO are a bit too convincing to pick apart. Drum VST's IMO aren't one of them, however once I've processed the daylights out of a real kit to keep them inline with modern expectations it's neither here or there. Then there's the expense and pain of recording real drums, unfortunately I don't have a million dollars spare to buy land (due to modern noise regulations), build a specialised tracking room, buy a ton of high end mic's + outboard and a proper recording kit. So whether or not I like VST's is a moot point, I have no choice but to use them really.. Although I'm considering a "hybrid" kit with Husht cymbals for example, that could be interesting. Anyway, I'd be happy enough with different so I'm going to experiment a bit. Martin John Butler , I'd definitely pay you $6.00 to work with some dedicated, passionate and talented musicians. I've always wondered what would happen if I formed a band with people who takes this as seriously as I do. Hey Shadow, I meant "washy" in a good way, describing the decay of the cymbals I guess. I spend a lot of time with mic placement and polarity flipping to get the drums sound right, and they are right. I guess my reason for using e drums is the same as yours, volume, just like anyone else. There's people in the house usually. I can get away smashing the drums for maybe 10 minutes then I feel like I'm pushing my luck. With the e drums there's no limit, so I end up playing them a lot more. It's a bit of a Leaning Tower of Pisa thing, having these amazing drums miked up that I can hardly get time to play, just sitting there. At least that metaphor makes sense in my head.
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Post by robschnapf on Jan 12, 2022 14:54:29 GMT -6
Moving at least ten reels of tape for a record. Now putting the record in your top pocket and walking into mastering…
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Post by robschnapf on Jan 12, 2022 14:56:31 GMT -6
Go to mastering…..
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 13, 2022 4:27:21 GMT -6
I just wanted to thank everyone here for supporting and sustaining such a great community, to me it doesn't even feel online anymore. Props to JohnKenn for making rgo happen. I have learned and benefitted so much from our confabs here and really appreciate the great expertise, lurking just behind any poorly expressed sonic idea here ! RGO is my on line port of first call when ever I want knowledgable, helpful opinions and reasonable debate, well, except for Eric and monitors, yea I know buy Quested ,I get it ! All the best to everyone, let's make 22 a great year !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 7:42:42 GMT -6
I just wanted to thank everyone here for supporting and sustaining such a great community, to me it doesn't even feel online anymore. Yeah, it's odd how this feels more like a community than a forum. Kinda forget sometimes..
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